Kiyohime retrofit - 9x7 20s - production grade commuter

auraslip

auraslip

10 MW
Joined
Mar 5, 2010
Messages
3,535
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Here's the bike that's been sitting in my work room for six months. It's a really nice looking bike, but it has some problems. Most notably, it used a low power ping 48v20ah, now in my other bike. The ping is fat at 6" and combined with the frame being an xxl it was awkward to straddle the bike at stoplights. The ping works fine in the center triangle of my other, smaller bike.

This bike is designed to be as easy and worry free as possible. I need to be able to use it any weather condition and any state of sobriety. This is what I mean by production grade. No swapping around connectors or finagaling with batteries. Just a keyswitch to activate it, and a simple plug for charging.

Current stats:

Non-operational

XXL al frame
9x7
Lyen 18fet
20s 10 ah lipo of 4s packs

Relevant threads:

V1 original build thread
Issues with ergonomics and handling of an xxl frame
Server power supply charger
Battery pack discharger/tester
Dealing with 4s packs
Using stripboards to parallel 4s packs
Better zip ties!
Clamping torque arm
Ventilating a motor
Motor temperature sensor
Battery pack calculator


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here is the battery pack layout 18s 20ah total = 18x 6s5ah packs

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here is what's gonna be in the waterproof box
 
The first thing I did was to chop the box down per dogmans advice



I cut about 1 1/2" off. Now it's skinny!


with out the sides - those bags of junk to the side are all the wood scraps and removed components. Probably about 5 pounds!


I've taped off the sides. I'm going to fill the old holes in with wood putty and repaint them. I need to figure out a way to screw it down more elegantly so the sidings don't rip open. I'm thinking washers and metal screws?


Here is the drop out


Here is the torque plate I've started on. It's going to be a clamping model. Originally I was going to just screw bits of L brackets to the bottom, and use those to tighten the torque arm tight. However, it occurs to me that the 1/4" steel might not be thick enough to properly grip the axle, especially on the hollow wiring side. So rather than worry about it deforming, I'm going to run the L brackets like dogmans design.

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I've still got a lot of work to do on this bike. The battery pack needs to be tested and assembled. The control box needs to be built. The motor needs to have the phase cables upgraded, a thermometer installed, and ventilated.

I've learned the hard way, that the best way to build a bike is slowly and one piece at a time, rather than rushed like a last minute school report! So, I'm going to take my time and enjoy doing this bike. After all, it's going to be September until I get my financial aide and can afford the $600 battery pack!
 


Looks pretty good. Funny how you can justify spending $20 on black screws and washers once you're invested in a project like this!

FYI, that white trash bag is full of about 5lbs of left of removed junk. Mostly extraneous metal straps previously on the corners of the box and extra wood.

I'm in the process of modding out the hub. Then I need to finish the dual sided torque arm.

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Then I'll wire up the controller and test everything with the mean wells. Then the bike electronics will be installed, the battery pack ordered and tested, and a charger from server psus made. Lots of work yet!
 
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Motor ventilated - https://sites.google.com/site/shelbyelectro/Mods-and-technical/motors/ventilating-a-hub-motor

Temp sensor installed

phase wires upgraded

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Now just need the torque arm to be made. I'm trying to decide if I should buy just ONE good quality tap and the tools to use it, or a harbor freight el cheap tap kit. (or maybe a full good quality tap and die kit $$$)

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I've started the at home charger here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=31723

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I'm going to try to swing an on board KP style charger as well.

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I'm wondering what sort of performance I should get out of this bike at 18s and 60a. Hoping around 40mph, but how long till it overheats at that speed? I may have to upgrade to an x5 (if I can find one) or a dual 9c setup.

I'm also wondering if maybe I should throw in an extra 4s parallel group to bump the voltage up to 22s (83v) - I'd like 24s, but I'm not positive about the upgrades to the equipment I'd need to do. The CA, dc-dc, and the controller.
 
Well, this build was getting across the whole forum in a bunch of different threads. So I cleaned up the first post and added all the relevant threads.

I actually don't have much too do until the bike would be consider operational by most people's standards; just need to finish the torque arm, do the wiring harness, and mount the controller.

Of course, I have a spreadsheet with about 30 other things I have to do before it will be a safe and reliable daily commuter.

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I've made the change to 4s packs which are MUCH cheaper. Unfortunately, it looks like it's not going to be as easy as working with the 6s packs, but I think I've figured out an easy way to roll with it.

It's either gonna be 20s or 24s now. I'd like to do 24s, but I'm not sure if my controller and CA can handle 24s.
 
Hm. Do you think the motor can really handle 20s lipo? i nearly smoked mine running at that power level. I was running it out of the efficiency band though, i was giving it 38 amps and it wanted like 45+ to cruise.
 
Doesn't matter cause my commutes only 7 miles and my town only has a radius of 5 miles, so pretty much anywhere I go is gonna be less than a 20 min trip of WOT, limited stops, and no hills. methods was the original 9c fryer and he was climbing hills @ 10kw!

But you may be right. We'll see what the temp sensor says :)
 

Charger done. Just needs testing and tweaking.

Some fat cables. Halls are mxp - love working with those. So easy. 8 gauge phase with 8mm bullets. Battery charge lead is 8 gauge with xt-60 should be good enough for a full size motorcycle 8)

After spending 30 minutes making a single 1 to 2 adapter out of home depot 12 gauge I see the appeal of pre-made parallel harnesses! It doesn't matter. I just need it for testing. The groups are going to be in parallel via solder. Positive leads soldered directly to the ANL 165 amp fuses. Negative together dogman style. 4mm bullets connecting them with the main battery run being 8 gauge with 8mm bullets.


Got sick of writing all the testing data down, so I switched to using logview. I'm doing one last discharge test, matching the packs, discharge testing the parallel packs, soldering them together, and the bike should be ready to go!

Of course I'm still waiting on that damn throttle. And I still need to make my parallel balance boards. And my controll box. And put the pedal drive chain back on and tune the suspension and brakes.
Lots of little jobs, but I should be rolling soon.
 
So I ordered what I thought were 4s jst-xh pig tails off ebay.... but they were instead just mini connectors for a charger. Well shit. So then I just ordered some of the real deal from digikiey



These will go to the parallel boards I'm making on one end and to cell-logs/cheapy ebay cell monitors. Another thought is that instead of using a battery medic to balance, I can just use the imax at 8s. This might be the plan until I get the main bulk charger up and cranking.


Also, I figured out I can fit 16 of the 4s packs in the case!

I took it for it's first test ride. Seems real fast. Probably 35mph-40mph. I dumbly unsoldered the shunt on the controller with out realizing that I'd be limited too 60a. So I'm probably only doing 4kw. It's peppy, but not as much as I thought. I wanted wheelies :(
The batteries got damn hot in 20s1p config. Gotta put them in parallel before the next run.
 
The way you can't leave it alone, gotta always improve things, you gotta be another damn Virgo.

Looking better all the time!
 
The way you can't leave it alone, gotta always improve things, you gotta be another damn Virgo.
Click to expand...

hahaha. I know what you mean. I've been spending so much time trying to make this a worry free bike like my other ones. By the time it's finished, I'll already be a few months from starting the next one :(
And I'm almost finished and WOW. It hauls. Controller is maxxed out at 60a until i solder the shunt, but I can still do wheelies by lifting up on the bars (or pushing down on the fork) I almost threw myself already :D
Dissapointed by the run time of course. That was expected with a 20s2p pack though. I'll have to show restraint and go SLOW.

As far as the hub overheating - full out WOT on the flats it pushes up to 120c, and seems pretty stable there. The hk temp alarm is freakin loud!


balance boards!

I happily got a huge pack of colored electrical tape and some colored wire. So I had fun color coding each 4s group.

using a cell log to it's full potential

velcro!

already the batteries are able to be balanced charged from outside. Of course I have a huge buncdle of wires strapped to the outside of the bike.
Lot of work to build all those harnesses.

I'm ending up using the same s3 t2500 box as I used on my last bike. This will be the contents. Those $4 voltage alarms seem accurate and the alarm is adjustable and LOUD.
Hopefully I'll use a keyswitch and relays to activate all the alarms and controller rather than switch everything on one at a time.
 
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Wheelies - check - 22s is a gas.

Bike is mostly done. Just need to install the new dc-dc I ordered + lights. Setup the bulk charger. Calibrate the shunt setting for the CA. Install fenders. Water proof connectors. Install switches and relays for on/off. I ordered a charger from bmsbattery. We'll see how that goes for on board charging.

Bike is a blast to ride. Been chasing traffic on 40mph roads and keeping up.
 
120°C, I wouldn't touch the shunt, since it's too hot already AFAIC. If you do mod the shunt, don't just add solder...no accuracy. Use wire too and wrap it only over the portion of the shunt length you want to make the resistance effectively 0. Solder has relatively high resistance. eg if you want to double current, then reduce shunt resistance by half, and do it pretty accurately by wrapping thin strand copper over half the length and solder it in place.

Here's the thread I talked about it with pics. It works like a charm. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25802&p=373173&hilit=accurate+shunt+mod#p373109

Plus shunts get hot. I've melted solder right off of shunts on several occasions. After the first time it shorted to the controller case, I started putting some material on the case directly under the shunt. That was modding them the solder only way. The new method seems to avoid all that.

Bike's looking great. Keep in mind that stator starts saturating at 90A according to Justin's testing, and that's phase amps. More just creates heat with less and less increased performance.

John
 
Soldering the shunt? now you'll need to backtrack and delete every time you said reliable commuter. :lol:

Seriously, if you really want a daily rider, you might think about backing it off to 30 amps or so. My experience has been that above 2500w you start to really make a lot of heat with the 9c motors. And 2500 watts is plenty to have out in the street conditions. You'll be ahead of other cars at every light.

On the other hand, your town is only 7 miles wide. So you can get away with making heat for about that far. It's about 10 miles when you really start smelling the motor real bad.
 
I don't get why soldering the shunt is bad. It just decreases the resistance and tricks the MCU into thinking less current is really flowing so the 60a limit can be bypassed.

Not that I really need 60a for anything besides wheelies off the line. At cruising speed of 40mph the simulator say's i'll be doing ~2000w.... which is ~25a at 88v.

Yeah the motor likes to overheat. It's not too hard to make the buzzer go off I have set at 130c. With this small of a battery pack though, I don't really think I'll be running WOT unless I need it though.


I found an elegant way to strap the batteries down.

Just drilled holes in the bottom of the case and ran the zip ties though em. Those new T&B zip ties I have are industrial strength of whatever, so I'm not worried about them snapping. I also put two layers of cardboard and duct tape beneath the packs to give them something to compress against. Simple is elegant in my book.
 
auraslip said:
I don't get why soldering the shunt is bad.
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To get higher current, you don't need to mod the shunt if you have the program connectors. There's the high current program that CHXS shared with us that goes to 100A battery side. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26905&p=388853&hilit=chxs+high+current#p388853

On my 24 fet, the only reason I modded the shunt was to get more regen current, since my high speed wind motors don't have enough regen braking force with the 10A limit. I modded the shunt, and then had to turn the current limit settings down for the same performance, just better regen. It worked like a charm.

Since you have a temp sensor and alarm, along with a motor that allows controllers to live, then as long as you go easier on the throttle most of the time, the only real problem with going to higher current I see is hills since the phase currents can get more out of control.
 


lake is gone DRY. Was racing a kid on a tiny dirt bike. Would of won, but the balloon tires just can't handle sand.

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you can't hear anything but white noise, but the temp sensor and the lipo alarms are going off. F-n' loud and annoying. Got near 10ah before the batteries hit 3.5v though. And lots of heavy 60a pulses too.
 
Bike is great. Finally got lights. I got a dc-dc converter that works with high voltages! A meanwell sd-150-12d. They have them on ebay.. still 10 left. Offer them $23 and you get it for $30 shipped. Not a bad deal at all. It's overkill for anything but halogens, and a little big but not bad. Plus meanwell quality and good luck finding any other dc-dc converters that'll work above 72v.
 
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I put like 5 layers of clear coat on it for waterproofing. Hope it's enough.

Leds are from hobbyking. 1 meter of reds was $6 IIRC. The come in a few colors.

Backing is 1/4" scrap wood sprayed red.

For Christmas I got a similar, but waterproof LED kit. Total cost was something like $50 for everything. Jeez.


Bike has 600 some miles. Going good. The temp sensor stopped getting signals. That sucks.

The Lipo alarms quickly unbalance the pack. Not fun to balance.

Bike is a blast to ride, but the smallish battery pack makes for range anxiety. Next build will have 4 time the capacity!
 
Your 9C isn't a lump of melted copper yet? Nice.
I like your gangster rear tail light. The positioning of it is perfect for visibility actually. I am surprised that nobody mass produces anything like that - it's quite an ingenious idea as most hardtail / no sus. bikes have that space on em..

Might wanna ditch the cell logs. I stopped using mine long ago. Just stop discharging around 3.5v/cell average ( resting ) and call it a day. As long as you're not running any dud packs in that triangle, it's all good.
 
I've been thinking about the problems you've been having with your 9c. I was thinking maybe you haven't upgraded the wiring? Dumping 4kw down stock wires at full phase multiplication (during take offs) will be TONS of amps and TONS of I^2R losses. Like more than 10%. I didn't plug the figures into the calculator on my site though.

I dunnu. Mines in a 24" rim with all the upgrades. It doesn't have enough power to throw me off, but It wheelies easily enough if I lean back and volt it. It's definietly fun, but probably nothing compared to your pie or a cromotor.

I don't use the alarms anymore. :)
 
auraslip said:
I've been thinking about the problems you've been having with your 9c. I was thinking maybe you haven't upgraded the wiring? Dumping 4kw down stock wires at full phase multiplication (during take offs) will be TONS of amps and TONS of I^2R losses. Like more than 10%. I didn't plug the figures into the calculator on my site though.

I dunnu. Mines in a 24" rim with all the upgrades. It doesn't have enough power to throw me off, but It wheelies easily enough if I lean back and volt it. It's definietly fun, but probably nothing compared to your pie or a cromotor.

I don't use the alarms anymore. :)
Click to expand...

Nah, i ran very short 12ga. wires with 4mm bullet connectors on the end of the controller and motor phase.. the phase wires never got hot or even warm on 56a..
The thing is, i have a MAC and 20" magic pie to compare my MXUS/9C style motor to. Both were significantly faster. Have you ever ridden anything than your 9C before?

24" is enough of an improvement in wheel size to get a little more acceleration, i'm sure.
 
I think the 9c is great. Until it gets hot. Which is pretty much immediately. Then it starts to suck. But 10kw is great!

https://sites.google.com/site/shelbyelectro/Bike-of-the-week/12---kiyohime

Here is the write up. Finally it's finished!
 
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