Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stuff

[teklektik]

That was my first thought but they don't come in 1 5/8" and was a little apprehensive about tightening down a 1.75" U-bolt/saddle that didn't have the proper curvature, particularly because of the large supported weight. Maybe just overly cautious...

[gensem]

Hi Gensem!

Have you thought about buying a set of 1.75" clamps, and shimming the .11 difference by wrapping a slice of tire tube or something around the stanchion where it clamps? That was my plan for some larger diameter forks I was considering.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-WEHRS-MACHINE-WEIGHT-BALLAST-CLAMP-ON-BRACKET-MOUNT-1-3-4-ROUND-WM13175-/280837189277?hash=item4163336e9d&item=280837189277&pt=Race_Car_Parts&vxp=mtr#ht_786wt_689

I was planning on using your epoxied-clamp method on my green A-line, I thought you made a great evolution with that technique and wanted to try it. Did you have problems with it?

-JD

Rubber might be an option but only if he doesnt do a custom run... I mean rubber ll dry with the time and it ll probably sag a little too.

There is nothing wrong with my glued pelicam when used with a single crown fork, aside from the fact that the aluminium base is almost broken (shoulda used a thicker one) I ll remake it in the coming week.
The issue is just the lack of turning angle when you have a double crown fork, also when I was testing, if I push the box even further making a longer adapter to have better fork clearance the lipo box ll shake when you do sharp turns and doing so make the ride dangerous.

I still think the epoxy is very good for single crown, when I do the support again I ll hook it closer to the frame and a little lower.
BTW how and I supposed to remove the DP420 I already have without using heat that could pontencially damage the frame head?

How many kilos do have on your new bigger box?

[gensem]

Did you consider the DX Engineering clamps?

Not really... Wehrs Machine looked much better that I did not bother

[oatnet]

Rubber might be an option but only if he doesnt do a custom run... I mean rubber ll dry with the time and it ll probably sag a little too.

There is nothing wrong with my glued pelicam when used with a single crown fork, aside from the fact that the aluminium base is almost broken (shoulda used a thicker one) I ll remake it in the coming week.
The issue is just the lack of turning angle when you have a double crown fork, also when I was testing, if I push the box even further making a longer adapter to have better fork clearance the lipo box ll shake when you do sharp turns and doing so make the ride dangerous.

I still think the epoxy is very good for single crown, when I do the support again I ll hook it closer to the frame and a little lower.
BTW how and I supposed to remove the DP420 I already have without using heat that could pontencially damage the frame head?

How many kilos do have on your new bigger box?

On the previous page I have a photo of the finished pack weighing 23.2lbs, and about 4 lbs for the case and clamps, so about 27lbs.

I thought the DP40 was permanent?

Box shake would be a serious issue. Do you experience that in your current setup?

-JD

[teklektik]

... if you could teklektik...

Sure... I'll post back here with options.

Got in touch with AJ again today. Even at 15 pieces, they can't make a custom run of clamps but they can adjust the price a trifle for making up the adapter sleeves. The normal retail price for the clamp on their site is $12 and they will sell you a clamp + custom split reducer for $13 assuming the 15pc order.

If you want to order these you can do so by email contact@wehrsmachine.com or by ordering normally on-line at their site - in either case, just attach a note (like in PayPal) and make reference to "ATTN: AJ - electric bike - special request for custom reducer sleeves" at the quoted price ($13) and specify the exact inside diameter that you wish. If there are any questions they can ping you by email.

Hope this works out!

EDIT - It turns out they will be happy to make these reducers if anyone needs something similar. Contact them by phone and ask for A.J. They may quote a different price, etc, but they seem to be able to turn around the custom reducers in a day or so - outstanding!

>>> oatnet - apologies for this minor thread hijacking, but as a champion of front mounted batteries and these clamps, I didn't think you'd mind too much...

[gensem]

I thought the DP40 was permanent?

Box shake would be a serious issue. Do you experience that in your current setup?
-JD

DP420 is permanent as long as you dont go over a given temperature, but I just cant heat the frame that much because its alum.
Its shaking a little now, but that because the arm is too long its a little beat up due to my friend having a couple accidents with the bike.
I ll think I ll just saw most of the arm and epoxy a new thicker tray that should do.

[oatnet]

>>> oatnet - apologies for this minor thread hijacking, but as a champion of front mounted batteries and these clamps, I didn't think you'd mind too much...

No worries tek - on topic as far as I am concerned.

I look forward to seeing your new tray Gensem. I'm still mulling over your findings trying to make it work on my other Aline. I guess on the stanchions, you have two hard mounts, but the glued piece is effectively just one.

-JD

[oatnet]

A little wheel-build pron...

I got this group-buy 5404 wheelset from JRH yesterday, laced into 19" rims with Deestone 2.50" tires that he bought for my cromotor lace (which I ended up selling to BinLagen instead). The front is a 20mm through-axle for use on Boxxer forks. I only had time yesterday to take them out of the box for this pic and do a quick once-over, but they looked good. Unfortunately, this wheelset is slated for the Green Norco A-line frame, but I'm still working on the Red Frame, so this wheelset will go into storage for the moment.

JRH reports that my 5403, laced in 18" rims with 2.75" Gazelles, will be following shortly - and that wheelset will go on the red Norco frame built out in the previous pages of this thread. When that arrives, we will see progress again on the Red Norco!

-JD

[sn0wchyld]

A little wheel-build pron...

I got this group-buy 5404 wheelset from JRH yesterday, laced into 19" rims with Deestone 2.50" tires that he bought for my cromotor lace (which I ended up selling to BinLagen instead). The front is a 20mm through-axle for use on Boxxer forks. I only had time yesterday to take them out of the box for this pic and do a quick once-over, but they looked good. Unfortunately, this wheelset is slated for the Green Norco A-line frame, but I'm still working on the Red Frame, so this wheelset will go into storage for the moment.

JRH reports that my 5403, laced in 18" rims with 2.75" Gazelles, will be following shortly - and that wheelset will go on the red Norco frame built out in the previous pages of this thread. When that arrives, we will see progress again on the Red Norco!

-JD

looking good!
whats the weight like? particularly with that front tire...

[oatnet]

looking good!
whats the weight like? particularly with that front tire...

Weighed them today, the front is 8.6 lbs, and the rear is 38.6 lbs. Reminds me of the old Tidalforce wheels, that IIRC were 35+ lbs. I took a longer look at the lacing job, really a work of art, thanks JRH!

-JD

[adam333]

Great build Oatnet, pretty clean and it look professional.

I am amazed how everything fitted into this small box.

Did you run enough with it to have some statistic? Like max speed, and average Wh/km for a given distance? Oh, and what is the total bike weight ?

Once again, great work

[oatnet]

Did you run enough with it to have some statistic? Like max speed, and average Wh/km for a given distance? Oh, and what is the total bike weight ?

I've built many, many, many ebikes in the past 6 years, and I've found that for a given speed and distance, I pretty much use the same WH/M, so I expect about 40whm. That said I need to get the motor installed, before I can get statistics. Plus I am changing out the brakes and the CA and missed a part on the headset and... well, I have a lot of work ahead of me still.

Anyhow time for pictures of the crystalyte 5403 wheel build that will go on this bike, thanks again to JRH for a great job. I think they were delivered Saturday, but last night was the first chance I had to open the box. These are 2.75" michelin gazelles on 18" rims, the complete front wheel weighed 11.4 lbs, and the complete rear was 40.5lbs. Heavy, but DOT certified and suited to the abuse I plan to dole out.

-JD

2.75" michelin gazelles on 18" rims, front

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2.75" michelin gazelles on 18" rims, top

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2.75" michelin gazelles on 18" rims compared to a standard 26" wheel, front

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2.75" michelin gazelles on 18" rims compared to a standard 26" wheel, top

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[MattyCiii]

Nice wheel pr0n!

[SkyCaptain]

Awesome looking rear whhels man!!!.

Hey I have a 5404 here that I would really love to get into a smaller rim than the current 26incher that is on it.

Something similar to what you have done in your pics. Either an 18 or 19 inch rim, with a nice tire like that.

Trouble is here in Oz I don't know where to find a similar rim? I am happy to buy from oversea's but still can't seem to locate any 18 or 19 inch rims.

Once I have the rim here, I can probably get spokes made at the motor bike shop and think I can build it up myself.

SO, can anyone please direct me to where I could buy a similar 18 or 19 inch rim similar to the ones in your pictures "Oatnet"?
Or, is there anyway I could order the same rim and spokes from the guy you got it from? And then get it posted to Oz, and I will just build it up here myself. That would be the most awesome solution!.

Cheers everyone.

[oatnet]

thanks for the good words, mattyciii!

SkyCaptain, these wheels were laced by JohnRobHolmes (JRH) of Holmes Hobbies, and he also supplied the rims. Here is a link to his for-sale thread, tell him you would like to buy rims like the ones he put on oatnet's:

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=35442

-JD

[nicobie]

Nice tire and wheel set!

I just got my 18" alloy rims back from the powder coater but will have to wait until the new cromotors get here before trying them out.

Think you could measure the total dia. with the gazelle tires on?

thanks a bunch

Nick

[XLR8]

Awesome looking rear whhels man!!!.

Hey I have a 5404 here that I would really love to get into a smaller rim than the current 26incher that is on it.

Something similar to what you have done in your pics. Either an 18 or 19 inch rim, with a nice tire like that.

Trouble is here in Oz I don't know where to find a similar rim? I am happy to buy from oversea's but still can't seem to locate any 18 or 19 inch rims.

Once I have the rim here, I can probably get spokes made at the motor bike shop and think I can build it up myself.

SO, can anyone please direct me to where I could buy a similar 18 or 19 inch rim similar to the ones in your pictures "Oatnet"?
Or, is there anyway I could order the same rim and spokes from the guy you got it from? And then get it posted to Oz, and I will just build it up here myself. That would be the most awesome solution!.

Cheers everyone.

I have been looking for 18" rims lately and yesterday found this site on AliExpress.
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 82223.html
I'll be ordering this rim as soon as I receive a reply from the seller.

[johnrobholmes]

Being from china, don't be surprised if the rim doesn't lace up straight. I've yet to find a rim factory from china that makes round wheels. Taiwan is the place to go.

[oatnet]

Nice tire and wheel set!
Think you could measure the total dia. with the gazelle tires on?

Thanks!

Diameter measures to exactly 23.5" - which I guess makes sense 18"+2.75"+2.75".

The widest part of the tread is 2.9"/74mm, so It turns out I could have fit the 3.00" gazelles instead... although 3" is the only size that is sold as rear only, all the others are front/rear by reversing the tread direction.

I've yet to find a rim factory from china that makes round wheels. Taiwan is the place to go.

Hey JRH! Thanks again for the wheel builds and I disagree - I think you are the place to get these rims from!

-JD

[nicobie]

Diameter measures to exactly 23.5" - which I guess makes sense 18"+2.75"+2.75".

The widest part of the tread is 2.9"/74mm, so It turns out I could have fit the 3.00" gazelles instead... although 3" is the only size that is sold as rear only, all the others are front/rear by reversing the tread direction.

-JD

Thank you. That is exactly what I was looking for.

Nick

[John in CR]

... all the others are front/rear by reversing the tread direction.

How does that work? It's not just a single direction for rotation if it's directional?

I've had zero success finding moped anything down here. They seem like a good choice, better/stronger/actually tested and rated compared to bike stuff that leaves people with constant flats and broken wheel parts, but without the excess weight and size of moto stuff.

John

[oatnet]

... all the others are front/rear by reversing the tread direction.

How does that work? It's not just a single direction for rotation if it's directional?

Based on what I have read, and this one experience, it is fairly standard for moto/moped tires to be reversed based on placement. The main duty on the rear wheel is accelleration, and the major duty on the front wheel is braking, so the tread/plys are reversed to meet those respective forces.

Can you get stuff from online shippers like amazon.com down there?

-JD

[oatnet]

Edit: added pictures.
===================
I had a free hour last week, mounted the 5403 on the bike, and got it spinning with my old Methods 100v100a xlyte controller.

Because other people have had their wiring cut by the white plastic device intended to protect the wires, I modified it before I installed it. I removed the plastic top cover and threw it away, then removed the plastic insert that goes around the axle, and dremeled a slot in it that was a little wider than the wiring channel in the axle. Wiring was still tight because my dropouts are enclosed (no slot), so I dremeled a slot halfway through the dropout. Unfortunately, and despite my best planning and double-checking, I managed to drill the slot pointing up, not down to provide a drip loop. Fortunately we don't get much rain in SoCal, and because of the rear suspension the wiring will flex less if it runs across the top of the triangle, so it worked out.

The plastic insert, removed from the slot and dremeled

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Inserted in side cover, and lined up with the phase/hall bundle

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The flats of the axles were not exactly square; the dropouts fit over the top of the axle, but wouldn't slide all the way down. I filed the axles flat, and they fit with perfect snugness now. Disk clearance to the sidecover is tight, as is clearance between 135mm dropouts, so I can't see how I will fit a disk brake ATM - electric braking it is then. While I ordered spacer washers, it is not possible to fit the 3-speed clusters I bought into 135mm dropouts. I bought a screw-on single speed that should fit, but I haven't installed it yet. I might shoot for 150mm clearance next time.

Pinouts: Wire colors matched up exactly between the 1st gen methods controller, and the 5403:

Mini-XLR hall connector:
Pin . Controller . Motor
1 . Red . Red
2 . Blue . Blue
3 . Green . Brown
4 . Yellow . Yellow
5 . Black . Black

Phase:
Controller . Motor
Blue . Blue
Green . Green
Yellow . Yellow

When I fired up the motor, I was concerned about my pinouts being right because I only saw a no-load speed of 45mph, and the CA is still programmed for a larger 27" hookworm, so the real speed was even slower. I haven't calibrated the CA to this controller, so I am not sure what the no-load amps were. Later I realized the 3-speed switch wasn't even connected, and IIRC I programmed the first two settings to be exteremely low, so that would explain the low no-load RPM. Once it was rotating I immediately saw why JRH said I would need to have the tires remounted - the height of the tire varied as much as 1". So the next step will be to uninstall both wheels and try to find someplace that can install new rim strips and remount the tires.

-JD

The back wheel

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Not much room for a cluster here...These dropouts were made for the 135 cromotor, but the 54xx really needs 150mm and spacers.

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The dropouts extend the wheel back 2 inches, plus the 2" smaller wheel, land the widest part of the tread below the narrowest part of the triangle - plenty of width.

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As it sits now

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[oatnet]

I took the wheelset to the local motorcycle store to get the gazelles remounted. After dealing with so many arrogant Local Bike Stores, I wasn't looking forward to it, but the motorcycle store was much more welcoming. One guy recognized it as an ebike motor, and I only felt a little awkward asking them to make sure the 40lb motor didn't tip over and smash off the axle. It turns out the rim strips were torn up and needed to be replaced, as JRH surmised, so $ 81 later, I had functional wheels. (funny note - I hadn't heard of rim tape described as rim strips, so I pictured some motorcycle convention that adhered the bead to the rim).

I had a screw-on freewheel from ebikes.ca, but I think I gave it away. I bought another one on ebay, and after carefully making sure that it was the right diameter to screw on, the spacing of the teeth is wrong. If anyone knows what I should have ordered for standard 7-speed chain from my Tidalforce brakes, I'd really appreciate the tip. So the current freewheel keeps the chain off the side covers, but isn't effective for pedalling.

I got a 3-speed switch from Lyen, and a cruise control. I worked out the 3-speed switch by ohming it out (will post later for my own reference), but I had more trouble wtih the Lyen Cruise control. Worse, when I cut the cord short, I found (2) red wires, and (2) black wires. If anyone knows if whether yellow or white is brake or throttle, and whether I can just hook up both reds and both blacks, I can really use the help.

So right now, everything is wired up and connected except for the cruise control, so here are some pics I grabbed with the last rays of twilight. It is a heavy build, but I can still barely pick it up with one hand, so maybe 100 lbs; that weight comes across as a simply solid build. Interestingly, when I do, it balances right at the A-Line label on the top tube, right over the cranks; the heavy rear wheel and heavy front battery+wheel seem to balance each other out. The Luminator just rocks.

I took it out for a spin but I think the programming I was experimenting with was giving me problems, it had very little power. I have that to play with, plus the whole V3 throttle experience to integrate and experiment with, the rear sprocket, and of course the 3-speed switch to finish before I can label it as complete. It looks very Super-Motard with the smaller wheels, and looks/feels very motorcycle when moving it around; everything is so oversized on this build, it all kinda balances out so you lose that ginormas feeling it gives in person. Although it has extra bits hanging off, I think it looks pretty stealthy.

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CLICK ON THIS PICTURE TO SEE A LARGER VERSION OF THE SIDE VIEW

[Kepler]

Excellent job Oatnet. The bike looks fantastic. Its got a nice balanced look to it even with the big front mount battery box. Nice stealth appearance too. Keeping the triangle open keeps it much more bike like. Once you have the controller sorted, you will have a monster on your hands. Look forward to some video footage.