Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stuff

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nicobie
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Re: ??????? vs x5403 - Fight!

Post by nicobie » Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:25 pm

Nice tire and wheel set!

I just got my 18" alloy rims back from the powder coater but will have to wait until the new cromotors get here before trying them out.

Think you could measure the total dia. with the gazelle tires on?

thanks a bunch

Nick
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Re: ??????? vs x5403 - Fight!

Post by XLR8 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:33 pm

SkyCaptain wrote:Awesome looking rear whhels man!!!.

Hey I have a 5404 here that I would really love to get into a smaller rim than the current 26incher that is on it.

Something similar to what you have done in your pics. Either an 18 or 19 inch rim, with a nice tire like that.

Trouble is here in Oz I don't know where to find a similar rim? I am happy to buy from oversea's but still can't seem to locate any 18 or 19 inch rims.

Once I have the rim here, I can probably get spokes made at the motor bike shop and think I can build it up myself.

SO, can anyone please direct me to where I could buy a similar 18 or 19 inch rim similar to the ones in your pictures "Oatnet"?
Or, is there anyway I could order the same rim and spokes from the guy you got it from? And then get it posted to Oz, and I will just build it up here myself. That would be the most awesome solution!.

Cheers everyone.
I have been looking for 18" rims lately and yesterday found this site on AliExpress.
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product ... 82223.html
I'll be ordering this rim as soon as I receive a reply from the seller.

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Re: ??????? vs x5403 - Fight!

Post by johnrobholmes » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:15 am

Being from china, don't be surprised if the rim doesn't lace up straight. I've yet to find a rim factory from china that makes round wheels. Taiwan is the place to go.
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Re: ??????? vs x5403 - Fight!

Post by oatnet » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:05 pm

nicobie wrote:Nice tire and wheel set!
Think you could measure the total dia. with the gazelle tires on?
Thanks!

Diameter measures to exactly 23.5" - which I guess makes sense 18"+2.75"+2.75".

The widest part of the tread is 2.9"/74mm, so It turns out I could have fit the 3.00" gazelles instead... although 3" is the only size that is sold as rear only, all the others are front/rear by reversing the tread direction.
JRH wrote: I've yet to find a rim factory from china that makes round wheels. Taiwan is the place to go.
:lol:

Hey JRH! Thanks again for the wheel builds :D and I disagree - I think you are the place to get these rims from!

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Re: ??????? vs x5403 - Fight!

Post by nicobie » Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:05 pm

oatnet wrote:
Diameter measures to exactly 23.5" - which I guess makes sense 18"+2.75"+2.75".

The widest part of the tread is 2.9"/74mm, so It turns out I could have fit the 3.00" gazelles instead... although 3" is the only size that is sold as rear only, all the others are front/rear by reversing the tread direction.

-JD
Thank you. That is exactly what I was looking for.

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Re: ??????? vs x5403 - Fight!

Post by John in CR » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:23 pm

oatnet wrote:... all the others are front/rear by reversing the tread direction.
How does that work? It's not just a single direction for rotation if it's directional?

I've had zero success finding moped anything down here. They seem like a good choice, better/stronger/actually tested and rated compared to bike stuff that leaves people with constant flats and broken wheel parts, but without the excess weight and size of moto stuff.

John

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Re: ??????? vs x5403 - Fight!

Post by oatnet » Sun Oct 14, 2012 10:29 am

John in CR wrote:
oatnet wrote:... all the others are front/rear by reversing the tread direction.
How does that work? It's not just a single direction for rotation if it's directional?
Based on what I have read, and this one experience, it is fairly standard for moto/moped tires to be reversed based on placement. The main duty on the rear wheel is accelleration, and the major duty on the front wheel is braking, so the tread/plys are reversed to meet those respective forces.

Can you get stuff from online shippers like amazon.com down there?

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Re: ??????? vs x5403 - Fight!

Post by oatnet » Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:49 pm

Edit: added pictures.
===================
I had a free hour last week, mounted the 5403 on the bike, and got it spinning with my old Methods 100v100a xlyte controller.

Because other people have had their wiring cut by the white plastic device intended to protect the wires, I modified it before I installed it. I removed the plastic top cover and threw it away, then removed the plastic insert that goes around the axle, and dremeled a slot in it that was a little wider than the wiring channel in the axle. Wiring was still tight because my dropouts are enclosed (no slot), so I dremeled a slot halfway through the dropout. Unfortunately, and despite my best planning and double-checking, I managed to drill the slot pointing up, not down to provide a drip loop. Fortunately we don't get much rain in SoCal, and because of the rear suspension the wiring will flex less if it runs across the top of the triangle, so it worked out.
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The plastic insert, removed from the slot and dremeled
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Inserted in side cover, and lined up with the phase/hall bundle
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The flats of the axles were not exactly square; the dropouts fit over the top of the axle, but wouldn't slide all the way down. I filed the axles flat, and they fit with perfect snugness now. Disk clearance to the sidecover is tight, as is clearance between 135mm dropouts, so I can't see how I will fit a disk brake ATM - electric braking it is then. While I ordered spacer washers, it is not possible to fit the 3-speed clusters I bought into 135mm dropouts. I bought a screw-on single speed that should fit, but I haven't installed it yet. I might shoot for 150mm clearance next time.

Pinouts: Wire colors matched up exactly between the 1st gen methods controller, and the 5403:

Mini-XLR hall connector:
Pin . Controller . Motor
1 . Red . Red
2 . Blue . Blue
3 . Green . Brown
4 . Yellow . Yellow
5 . Black . Black

Phase:
Controller . Motor
Blue . Blue
Green . Green
Yellow . Yellow

When I fired up the motor, I was concerned about my pinouts being right because I only saw a no-load speed of 45mph, and the CA is still programmed for a larger 27" hookworm, so the real speed was even slower. I haven't calibrated the CA to this controller, so I am not sure what the no-load amps were. Later I realized the 3-speed switch wasn't even connected, and IIRC I programmed the first two settings to be exteremely low, so that would explain the low no-load RPM. Once it was rotating I immediately saw why JRH said I would need to have the tires remounted - the height of the tire varied as much as 1". So the next step will be to uninstall both wheels and try to find someplace that can install new rim strips and remount the tires.

-JD
4_IMG_7449.JPG
The back wheel
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5_IMG_7447.JPG
Not much room for a cluster here...These dropouts were made for the 135 cromotor, but the 54xx really needs 150mm and spacers.
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The dropouts extend the wheel back 2 inches, plus the 2" smaller wheel, land the widest part of the tread below the narrowest part of the triangle - plenty of width.
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3_IMG_7440.JPG
As it sits now
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Re: ??????? vs x5403 - Fight!

Post by oatnet » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:57 pm

I took the wheelset to the local motorcycle store to get the gazelles remounted. After dealing with so many arrogant Local Bike Stores, I wasn't looking forward to it, but the motorcycle store was much more welcoming. One guy recognized it as an ebike motor, and I only felt a little awkward asking them to make sure the 40lb motor didn't tip over and smash off the axle. It turns out the rim strips were torn up and needed to be replaced, as JRH surmised, so $ 81 later, I had functional wheels. (funny note - I hadn't heard of rim tape described as rim strips, so I pictured some motorcycle convention that adhered the bead to the rim).

I had a screw-on freewheel from ebikes.ca, but I think I gave it away. I bought another one on ebay, and after carefully making sure that it was the right diameter to screw on, the spacing of the teeth is wrong. If anyone knows what I should have ordered for standard 7-speed chain from my Tidalforce brakes, I'd really appreciate the tip. So the current freewheel keeps the chain off the side covers, but isn't effective for pedalling.

I got a 3-speed switch from Lyen, and a cruise control. I worked out the 3-speed switch by ohming it out (will post later for my own reference), but I had more trouble wtih the Lyen Cruise control. Worse, when I cut the cord short, I found (2) red wires, and (2) black wires. If anyone knows if whether yellow or white is brake or throttle, and whether I can just hook up both reds and both blacks, I can really use the help.

So right now, everything is wired up and connected except for the cruise control, so here are some pics I grabbed with the last rays of twilight. It is a heavy build, but I can still barely pick it up with one hand, so maybe 100 lbs; that weight comes across as a simply solid build. Interestingly, when I do, it balances right at the A-Line label on the top tube, right over the cranks; the heavy rear wheel and heavy front battery+wheel seem to balance each other out. The Luminator just rocks.

I took it out for a spin but I think the programming I was experimenting with was giving me problems, it had very little power. I have that to play with, plus the whole V3 throttle experience to integrate and experiment with, the rear sprocket, and of course the 3-speed switch to finish before I can label it as complete. It looks very Super-Motard with the smaller wheels, and looks/feels very motorcycle when moving it around; everything is so oversized on this build, it all kinda balances out so you lose that ginormas feeling it gives in person. Although it has extra bits hanging off, I think it looks pretty stealthy.
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CLICK ON THIS PICTURE TO SEE A LARGER VERSION OF THE SIDE VIEW
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Re: ??????? vs x5403 - Fight!

Post by Kepler » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:17 pm

Excellent job Oatnet. The bike looks fantastic. 8) Its got a nice balanced look to it even with the big front mount battery box. Nice stealth appearance too. Keeping the triangle open keeps it much more bike like. Once you have the controller sorted, you will have a monster on your hands. Look forward to some video footage. :)
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Re: ??????? vs x5403 - Fight!

Post by oatnet » Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:30 pm

Thanks Kepler!

Nothing different, similar pictures in different light. I'm in that new-build honeymoon period, where once it comes together I can't stop looking at what I made... :oops: :lol:
1_IMG_2529_turned cropped.shrunk.jpg
2_IMG_2522_1_800.JPG
3_IMG_2523_cropped_800.JPG
edit - today these pics are coming up wierd, where pics of the same size came up normal - whatever, if you care, I guess you have to click on them to see them normal size.
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Re: ??????? vs x5403 - Fight!

Post by oatnet » Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:20 pm

I was recently intrigued by a "John in CR" post, quoting mwkeefer's perspective on the batt:phase relationship on infineons.  I tried it, setting both phase and batt to 100amps, with block time at 1, which I would later turn up until top end started to drop.  I set the three switch speeds to 50%, 75% and 100%.

When I finally buttoned up the bike on Sunday and took it out for its first ride, it had almost no power.  I thought maybe it was the programming, or maybe I needed to pull the heat shrink off the CA connector and unplug it, or maybe the phases were NOT a direct color match... But it was late, and I was just pleased to have everything in place, so I packed it in for the night.

I got some time to play with it again tonight.  Step 1 - set it to speed 1, and unplug the CA.  Whamo, it pulled HARD, so that worked - I had a feeling I was going to have to rewire the CA connector to use the Cycleanalyst V3.  Wearing shorts, I threw on a lightly padded moto jacket, gloves, and my ebike helmet, and took it for a spin.

I took it easy, but at 50% on the speed switch, it lifted the front wheel, 28lb? front battery and all.  When speed started to level off, I backed off the throttle and switched to 75%, rode the feel of the torque for a second then lifted the front wheel, on to 100%, started to feel the wheel come up... 

I remembered that I had been telling myself all along that when I did testing on this, it was going to be in a full face helmet with my heavy moto jacket, and not shorts.  I could feel how this bike could flip me on my back if I buried the throttle with my weight wrong.  Between the heavy torque and the learning curve for grokking the balance of front-mounted packs, this is not a bike you let people around the neighborhood try out - that first ride could be a bitch.  And this is MY first ride.  I sighed, clicked it down to first speed, rolled the throttle on easy and headed home.  It was late, and dark, so  I called it a day.

I am happy to have felt the power of the 5403, and that it exceeded my expectations.  The bike felt balanced,  rock solid, yet with a plush ride - I look forward to getting a better feel for how it handles.
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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by wildharemtbkr » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:40 am

Haha sounds fun! My guess on your freewheel, is you bought a 1/2" x 1/8", when you have a multi speed chain. You need a 1/2" x 3/32" freewheel. With 1.37" x 24 tpi (threads per inch). Pretty awesome bike.

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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by sn0wchyld » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:47 am

sounds sexy mate!! suit up and give 'er some!

your running 24s too arnt you? can I ask where john was talking about this 1:1 ratio stuff for programming?

and you know what we're all gonna ask for now right? Videos!

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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by oatnet » Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:39 pm

Thanks for the kind words, guys!

wildharemtbkr, than you so much, that sounds like the insight I needed. I'll go buy one a 3/32nd.

Snow, that is right, 24s, so 88.8v off the charger, and only 76-80v under load after the fluff charge burns off. I still have a lot to do before I can do a good video - correct sprocket, change the CA plug on my methods controller so I can use the V3, tune the suspension etc - but it will come. :mrgreen:

As for the multiplier, this approach was brought to my attention only because John in CR posted the link several times, so thanks John, and thanks keefer for developing/sharing this knowledge:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 5&#p272438
The purpose in the eyes of eBike designers is quite simple... Although some hub motors are really torquey, most just arent... to that end, you need the most torque when launching from a dead stop and so...

An engineer decides what wattage and determines the motor's torque output based on 1355 / No Load KV * Amps... Then depending on the requirements, for instance a max load weight of 300 lbs the engineer needs to find a way to get that mass (the 300lbs of you bike batteries and motor) moving along quickly... though accelleration takes more power, it only needs that power for a short time... hence Block time is supposed to be the delay in seconds before the limiting kicks in and brings you back to the programmed primary current.

Another bit you may or may not have realized is the purpose of Phase Current and why it is different than Primary or Battery Current...

At lower speeds the controller can multiply the current at the cost of voltage which is only needed (the higher voltage) once the motor is trying to gain speed.... That's why people with 9C usually recommend 2.5 X the Primary Current for this setting and it's the current your phase windings are slammed with on startup... the block time allows for a momentary surge of Primary Current to enable the output which is current amplified (the FETs do this) which in a 26" DD 9x7 Rear (Loaded kV of 10.10 @ 48v - load rating 100KG / 220lbs) - these motors don't have enough torque at 45A to get you moving and thus reduce duty cycle and power handling of the FETs, phases and every other component... then when you approach speed... you will see your current taper down because "An object in motion stays in motion unless acted upon by an outside force".

By comparison - I have found that using Phase Current of lower multipliers of Primary Current like 1.5 X will result in higher top end speeds because the voltage sag is less in the current amplification process.

If your using geared hubs... these are the most fun, here I begin at 1:1 with block time at about 5 (I do run 69A limit on a 9FET shunt soldered and reprogrammed infineon with stock fets and caps) - I can't keep the nose down and my top speed reaches 30+ mph where as when I had the Phase Current at 2.5 the max speed was 27mph... Next I increased the multiplier until my top speed on a flat without wind dropped measurably... This gives me the absolute best combo of slamming accelleration, higher top speeds and better efficiency since the motor spends less time at low inefficient speeds.
The 54xx at 100a has way more launch torque than I need, so I don't need a "block time" period that ignores the limit on current, and instead of tuning it higher I'll leave it set at "1", wishing I could choose "0".

Since phase is restricted to the same 100a as the battery, and I have abundant torque, I have no need to change it to a multiple of battery current to apply more amps to get more torque - if anything, I might reduce amps for both settings. I have not tested to verify that this gives me a few more MPH on the top end, but I respect mwkeefer and I hope it does.

Enough torque ceased to be an issue for me several kw ago, in fact it became more of a driveability issue (its not nice to lend a wheelie machine to your freinds) so if anything I wanted to reduce torque. That is why I have been so critical of the 9kv CroMotor - it supplies way more of something I already have too much of. I could go to a longer wheelbase to keep the nose down, but at a tradeoff of balance, because you are now putting a heavy hub motor at the end of a really long lever in relation to the front wheel. Top speed, then, is the only frontier left for folks like me. 8)

Here is a pic of the slot I cut in the removable dropouts, to make a path for the wire bundle coming out of the motor.
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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by Alan B » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:51 pm

Nice build oatnet, looking very good!

The quotation above on the controllers is from early work in 2010 and contains a mixture of good information and some misunderstandings that have been cleared up since that time, so consider it with care. For example FETs don't amplify current, and phase current limits have zero effect on the maximum speed as they only limit the PWM pulsewidth at very low RPM and have no effect after the current multiplication drops off as the back EMF rises with increasing RPM. The processor has only ONE knob to tweak, and that is the PWM of the drive to the motor (unless they mess with timing and field weakening which is not usually desirable). Motor current drops off due to the increasing back EMF of the motor, it doesn't really see momentum

I do agree that minimizing block time is important on low impedance motors driven by high voltage to protect the FETs as the resulting uncontrolled excessive current can be damaging, and that selecting phase current limits at different ratios can be a good design choice, as there is no magic in 2.5x and it should be based on what the motor and controller can efficiently and safely handle, and considering the drivability issues is an excellent plan. I'm running 60/100 battery/phase amps on my Cromotor and it is very driveable and responsive. My rear tire is wearing quite fast, so it might make sense to reduce the battery current a bit further, though it is fun the way it is, and there is no tendency for the front wheel to leave the ground (though it lifts significantly within the suspension travel). :)

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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by veloman » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:45 am

The problem I found with front mounted batteries is that you need an extra long power lead, and it has to have some good slack for turning. If you do it, I think attaching to a dual crown fork legs is the only way. Attaching to the bars is not a good idea, too far forward.
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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by oatnet » Sun Nov 11, 2012 7:55 pm

Here is a video of a quick walk-around:


AlanB, thanks for the kind words, detail and background info.

Veloman, you are correct, one does need a long power lead, which is why I used 4ga wire for that run. One can minimize the need for extra slack by crossing the wires under the steerer tube, instead of running them straight down the side of the frame. This way, when you turn the wheel, the wire length stays the same. If you read back in the thread, others have tried a variety of handlebar mounts with success, although I prefer the hard-mount myself. Here is what that cross looks like:
wire cross IMG_7952.JPG
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Wildhare, you were absolutely correct about the freewheel - here is a picture of the brass 1/2" x 3/32" and chrome 1/2" x 1/8" - the skinnier teeth fit through the chain. Thanks!
freewheels IMG_7945.JPG
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freewheel 2 IMG_7946.JPG
Mounted!
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Also, some more pics of the phase/hall bundle coming out of the dremeled dropouts/plastic cup.
bundle 1 IMG_7947.JPG
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Took it out for some test runs today, got 43mph on the flats in a tuck, 41mph when I stand up. After I got home, I lifted the rear wheel to get a no-load speed of 53.5mph at 79.3v .

I am calling the x5403 a 9.65kv motor. Per my calculator, a 9.65kv motor at 79.3v in a 23.5" wheel will give the 53.47mph unloaded, and an the 80% estimated loaded speed is 42.78mph, right what I saw today. That would give me 86mph if I went to 144v, a little short of the 100mph I would like to reach on this mule. I was hoping for more of an 11.5kv, which would give me 52mph at 72v nominal, and 104mph at 144v, but it is an entertaining ride nonetheless.

I am having problems entering an rshunt value on my CA V3, so I can't calculate WHM etc, but acceleration is brisk to say the least. The V3 tamed down the twitchy throttle, and I set the 3-speed switch 30% 50% 100% so I can launch on 30% to keep it controlled on launch, and quickly switch to 100% for hard accelleration. I am really impressed with the CA V3 and its throttle control capabilities, not to mention the ability to toggle between three presets (Emoto, eMoped, ebike) on the fly. I cruised up steep long hills at 36mph, and the motor/controller were barely warm.

The bike weights 118.6lbs. Sounds like a lot, but consider that it is built with moto rims, tires and the v12 of hubmotors. Here is a breakdown of weight:

40.50 rear wheel
11.40 front wheel
28.50 Battery Pack
36.30 lbs frame/forks/controller/everything else
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153v DUNE BUGGY © 164v Vectrix E-Moto © 72v Norco A-line/x5403 © 60v Specialized Enduro Comp/BMC © 72v x5tracycle © 48v TF IO/BMC © 36v Kepler FrictionDrive © Spot-Welding a123 © Pelican Front Packs © Vectrix Battery Replacement © MORE !!


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Alan B
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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by Alan B » Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:05 pm

This sounds like a Cromotor, or pretty close. I'm getting 37 mph at 70 volts with a 3.0 Gazelle 23.5 inch tire.

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oatnet
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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by oatnet » Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:42 am

Alan B wrote:This sounds like a Cromotor, or pretty close. I'm getting 37 mph at 70 volts with a 3.0 Gazelle 23.5 inch tire.
Yep, the Cro ended up at 9.26kv, 9.65kv is a little faster, but short of the 11.5kv that would be my ideal. My 18" wheel with 2.75" gazelles is 23.5" (18+2.75+2.75=23.5) - wouldn't a 3" gazelle on 17" rim be 23" unloaded?

I can't stop watching the walkaround video, I am really pleased with this bike:


-JD
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153v DUNE BUGGY © 164v Vectrix E-Moto © 72v Norco A-line/x5403 © 60v Specialized Enduro Comp/BMC © 72v x5tracycle © 48v TF IO/BMC © 36v Kepler FrictionDrive © Spot-Welding a123 © Pelican Front Packs © Vectrix Battery Replacement © MORE !!


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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by ohzee » Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:51 am

It's a great looking bike that is for sure. Id like to see video of you riding it so we could see her in action.

Great work she's a beauty.

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Kepler
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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by Kepler » Mon Nov 12, 2012 9:22 pm

Looking great. Weight came up at around the same a Bomber. Same voltage and same motor so it should be able to get 50mph. Are you running 120% on the controller? That will get you over the 50mph if your aren't.

What is the max speed that you can still comfortably pedal at with your gearing setup?
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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by oatnet » Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:02 pm

Oh yeah, Pedal... I was so busy trying to just hang on :shock: , I'd all but forgotten it even had pedals. :lol: The 16t single speed will make it slow, I need to add a few links to the chain, so I can stretch it over the largest front sprocket and see what I get.

Am I correct in thinking the bomber is a 5405 winding in a 26"-27", I wonder how the "gearing" compares to a taller 5403 in a smaller 23.5" OD wheel. Great tip on the 120% throttle to get 50mph, I'll try that - I knew people had done that on the infineons, but I thought it was to get more amps into the motor, I didn't think it would add to my top end! :D

Thanks for the good words, ohzee! I do lots of construction pics, so I leave the action sequences to the younger gents.

-JD
Member 117 of 26,000+

153v DUNE BUGGY © 164v Vectrix E-Moto © 72v Norco A-line/x5403 © 60v Specialized Enduro Comp/BMC © 72v x5tracycle © 48v TF IO/BMC © 36v Kepler FrictionDrive © Spot-Welding a123 © Pelican Front Packs © Vectrix Battery Replacement © MORE !!


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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by Farfle » Mon Nov 12, 2012 10:16 pm

116 pounds? Are you sure? My race bike was 121 pounds with lights. 127 with mirrors and fenders and all the other commuter-y stuff. How much battery do you have onboard?
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Re: Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stu

Post by Alan B » Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:48 pm

oatnet wrote:
Alan B wrote:This sounds like a Cromotor, or pretty close. I'm getting 37 mph at 70 volts with a 3.0 Gazelle 23.5 inch tire.
Yep, the Cro ended up at 9.26kv, 9.65kv is a little faster, but short of the 11.5kv that would be my ideal. My 18" wheel with 2.75" gazelles is 23.5" (18+2.75+2.75=23.5) - wouldn't a 3" gazelle on 17" rim be 23" unloaded?

-JD
I measure 23" now but I've worn off nearly 1/4" already. So not quite 23.5 but more than 23.0. I recall measuring close to 23.5 early on but that was at full pressure, I don't run that much pressure now.

So after all the complaining about the Cromotor the Xlyte is less than 5% different. Would have been an interesting comparison after all.

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