Oatnet's x5403/Norco A-line, and Front-Mount battery stuff

[oatnet]

I just got the plastic test parts for the replaceable dropouts, and I am simply stunned by the great quality. This is a complex part, especially where it mounts to the frame. It has one flat section that also curves against the frame at the bottom, one "wavy" section that the frame curves around at the top, and a step between them. These are meant to be the load bearing surfaces, so they must fit precisely, relative to each other. Their position is also relative to the three bolts that keep the dropouts in postion to these surfaces. The fit of the original parts is so tight I had to mallet the dropouts to get them off.

Our very own Magudaman CNC'd these beauties in short order, based only on a pair of the removable dropouts I sent him, and he reproduced them so EXACTLY that they are just as snug as the original dropouts, with tolerances I would say are at most +/- .001", and exceeding my wildest hopes.

While doing that, he also moved the bolt hole back 2", and moved the dropouts in 7.5mm so I could fit the 135mm CroMotor into the 150mm dropouts. Since these are removable, the dropouts are fully enclosed. And heck, I haven't even showed the lightening he did on the back side! Really Really impressive work, crazy good skills, I am beyond thrilled. Plus he has been great to work with, very responsive, shared expertise in metal selections, I'd give my highest recommendation on any parts you need made.

Given that is CNC, he can also make more, so I can buy a 3-4 sets, maybe build one for Mrs Oatnet too. With parts from Justin, even a clown like me can pick up one of those A-line frames currently selling on ebay and make an awesome, durable downhill ride, without mucking about with torque arms.

I only had time over lunch to bolt on one side, but tonight I'm going to put on a motor/brake/deralliur to confirm fitment, more pics to come.

'I'm dreaaaming of an A-Line, Christmas... Not like the hardtails I used to know...'
-JD

Note: the plastic block wasn't quite big enough to make the test parts, so you can see it is chopped off a bit at the rear axle mount. It will be fully rounded on the final piece.

[fractal]

wow, this just amazing work. this place is filled very talented people! i absolutely have to get those for mine! very impressive! count me in for a pair!!!

[Andje]

I'll be in for a pair as well. Please do let us know when you are ordering the final sets; I can send cash any time for such a thing.

[dbaker]

I also want a pair of those dropouts. So nicely done!

[sn0wchyld]

wow man, makes my work look like a dogs dinner!!

I'd strongly recommend using a slot + a pinch bolt rather than an enclosed axle though, the small touch ups I needed to do to get my axle to fit tightly took hours, and taking the wheel off means taking the whole rear end apart, including breaks and derailleur. gets to be a pita after a while. it also relies allot on the precision of the axle your putting into it... if it varies even half a mm along its flat spots you'll know about it, and the axle wont sit tight /will develop some play unlike what'd happen with a pinch bolt.

try changing the 'slot' direction to being horizontal rather than verticle, so your axle can come out the back, and maybe beef up the top side above the axle a tad since it will be taking the full load of the wheel on its own. then you can run a pinch straight down into the lower section. alternatively you could work out a way to bring the slot out in front of the derailleur mount, perhaps giving less chain wrap but keeping it vertical...

as it is im still temped to get a set myself too... what final material are you using?




edit

I may even be interested in one with the standard axle hole, as ive got long term plans to put a mid drive on this bike! would be good to have an extended wheelbase for a normal rear end available!

[dbaker]

I agree with the pinch bolt drop out suggestion.

[Andje]

I have seen good success without torque arms on my norco 125; it has horizontal dropouts as you speak of without a pinch bolt. The bolt contact surface is knurled. With good torque on the bolts i have seen excellent lack of twisting. I wonder if good knurled surfaces would keep more peoples bolts tight under regen as long as the dropout is strong enough to resist the twisting.
Or the pinch bolt suggestion .

[oatnet]

I might ask for a pinch-bolt setup in the future, but the stubby little CroMotor axles limit the material I can get against the flats, and the enclosed axle hole is a stronger design. Plus it prevents the axle from sliding backwards, so the axle nuts will only need to hold the dropouts to the motor, not keep it from moving in the slot, so I can use thicker dropouts and engage less threads.

Besides, these removable dropouts are the only way I'd ever be able to try an enclosed axle hole. I'm aware that its going to be more work during fitment, but once installed I rarely have need to pull a motor back out.

I have asked that the diameter around the axle hole be 2" instead of 1" to have more metal aroound the hole. As Fractal pointed out to me in PM, I'll need to dremel out some materal to keep the wires from being pinched against the dropout.

Magudaman recommend 7075 T651 aluminum, 1/3 the weight and stronger than mild steel.

I was hesitant about ally at first, but after some research I came around. It is already annealed, and because the axle hole is fully enclosed, I am not expecting to see flex in the material. Here are the metal properties he found on a website and forwarded me.

7075 T651
Physical and Mechanical Properties Ultimate Tensile Strength, psi 71,000
Yield Strength, psi 58,200
Brinell Hardness 150
Rockwell Hardness B87
Chemistry Aluminum (Al) 87.1 - 91.4%
Zinc (Zn) 5.1 - 6.1% max
Copper (Cu) 1.2 - 2.0%
Chromium (Cr) 0.18 - 0.28%
Iron (Fe) 0.5 max
Magnesium (Mg) 2.1 - 2.9%
Manganese (Mn) 0.3% max


1018 Mild (low-carbon) steel
Minimum Properties Ultimate Tensile Strength, psi 63,800
Yield Strength, psi 53,700
Elongation 15.0%
Rockwell Hardness B71
Chemistry Iron (Fe) 98.81 - 99.26%
Carbon (C) 0.18%
Manganese (Mn) 0.6 - 0.9%
Phosphorus (P) 0.04% max
Sulfur (S) 0.05% max


Finally, on to the pron! I did a test fit with an 5305 (yes, I put it in backwards ) The rear shock isn't in yet, so the frame is where it would be with the rear shock fully compressed, and it looks a bit funny. I should be getting the correct driver for the press to install the FSA 1.5" to 1.125" reducer headset, that will allow me to install the Boxxer's, which also are at an odd angle. You can see how far back the wheel is, with the extra 2" on the dropouts.

Look how far back that wheel sits! I can't wait to strip those ugly red BOXXER decals off the forks, make them a nice generic white.

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You can see the windowing here.

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Here is the left side, from above.

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Here is the right side, from underneath.

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[fractal]

Nice! Is that a 26 inch wheel?

[oatnet]

Nice! Is that a 26 inch wheel?

Yep!

[Andje]

wow. those things certainly count as pron. Seeing them on the bike with the motor, all my reservations flew out the window. They look ideal.

oatnet, I can only speak for myself, but please don't leave me out of this purchase; I can literally email transfer you cash on faith at any time for a couple pairs of those things if there is time on the CNC to make extras when you finally order them. If that is impossible, I hope we can either talk to the magudaman about buying more or buying the file itself.

[Brentis]

wow. those things certainly count as pron. Seeing them on the bike with the motor, all my reservations flew out the window. They look ideal.

oatnet, I can only speak for myself, but please don't leave me out of this purchase; I can literally email transfer you cash on faith at any time for a couple pairs of those things if there is time on the CNC to make extras when you finally order them. If that is impossible, I hope we can either talk to the magudaman about buying more or buying the file itself.

Being Canadian, and hunting PinkBike for appropriate Bikes to convert.
I find the ads full of A-lines,other Norcos.
@ reasonable'ish Prices.
Would be great to have access to this design in the future.

[oatnet]

wow. those things certainly count as pron. Seeing them on the bike with the motor, all my reservations flew out the window. They look ideal.

oatnet, I can only speak for myself, but please don't leave me out of this purchase; I can literally email transfer you cash on faith at any time for a couple pairs of those things if there is time on the CNC to make extras when you finally order them. If that is impossible, I hope we can either talk to the magudaman about buying more or buying the file itself.

Thanks Andje!

I'm not in this for the money, I just wanted to build out a kick-ass frame. As far as I am concerned, Magudaman owns the design he made to fulfill my request. Once we are done getting everything sorted out, I hope he lines up a bunch of work producing them, opens a shop, and starts making eBike stuff full-time. He took this project and ran with it, demonstrated iniative and work ethic and made it happen! Thanks Justin!

The A-line's interlocking system was the only removable/adjustable dropout design I found where the bolts didn't carry most of the load, let alone used three bolts instead of just two, and by far the strongest I saw. I think it is a great platform for ebikes; it weighs more than other frames I have used, but I hope that translates to durability.

Being Canadian, and hunting PinkBike for appropriate Bikes to convert.
I find the ads full of A-lines,other Norcos.
@ reasonable'ish Prices.
Would be great to have access to this design in the future.

Be careful, 2008 and earlier had fixed dropouts, and I'm not sure if I saw any other Norcos with removable dropouts. This dropout design is specific to the 2009 A-Line model, I think later years still had removable dropouts, but I don't know if they are the same.

I'd recommend snapping up a frame from your fellow Canadian for $400 shipped, before he sells out of them:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/230720636741

-JD

[Andje]

the other thing is i'm pretty sure i've seen the 2011 a-line and it's back to non re movables.
http://www.pinkbike.com/product/norco/2011-A-Line/
I also like the idea of the creator of the design making the profit. I'll msg magu.

[oatnet]

Got the FSA 1.5" to 1.125" reducer headset on tonight, also got the Fox DHX-RC4 9.5" x 3.25"/450lb spring rear shock partially installed (wrong size spacers on the front), so I slotted one of the Boxxer's, this is more how it will ride when done. Take a look at that standard, square-taper bottom bracket - compare that to a bike you know - and you will get a feel for how massive and robust this frame is. It isn't light... but in a heavy duty application like this, I think that is OK!

Dbaker also had some informative results testing his ride today... I'll wait for him to post them (unless I can't keep my mouth shut anymore) and post my calculations on the motor.

-JD

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[oatnet]

Just programmed my CA DP to 23 pole motor and 1854mm measured circumference. I got 63.8mph on 99.6v with my 18 fet controller, using 430W.

Got permission to share Dbaker's results, above. Sadly, I originally mistook this no-load report for an on-road report, 430 watts it should have been obvious. That is 4.3a, that sounds a little high for no load, but this is quite clearly a 9.5kv motor that will perform about the same as the 5305 I already have on the frame right now.

Either the italian guy (whose report I based my purchase on) had a different winding (like maybe the original sample at 13.5kv), or he totally lied about getting 140kph(84mph) from this motor. High Speed motor FAIL.

OK, Bring on the 5403 from the group buy, that should be a fast motor.

23.25 Diameter
73.01 Circumferance, inches
6.08 Circumferance, feet
867.89 revolutions/mile
9.50 KV of CroMotor
99.60 Voltage
946.20 RPM Unloaded
65.41 MPH unloaded
756.96 RPM Loaded (80%)
52.33 MPH loaded

[gensem]

Thats a let down, but the number should in the middle of 5304 and 5303, much like a 9c 2805... but the power band of a faster kv motor is so much better... Even tho the torque should be remarkable... did your friend told you about the neck smashing torque?

[fractal]

Oatnet, what does a reducer headset do?

[oatnet]

Our '09 A-lines are made for a 1.5" fork, instead of the standard 1 1/8" fork, like the Boxxers I use. A "reducer" headset lets me run the 1 1/8" fork.

-JD

[oatnet]

I got the dropouts from the Magudamaniac just in time for Christmas, (Thanks Justin!) Justin was working hard to meet the Christmas deadline I had asked for, and to meet my request he had to get cutting before I got around to sending him the second list of changes. With so many complex changes we are still sorting things out on this v1.0 set, but I was just so happy to get it finished and be able to play with it! Unfortunately the brake bracket did not get moved along with 2 moves of the axle hole, so he is making an adaptor for this set. There was a little burp on the flat of the axle hole on both pieces, we need to get that moved to the curve at the end. Plastic is also more forgiving, so I had a good bit of filing to get the bolts in - frankly I don't see anyway around doing this, I was suprised I didn't have to with the plastic. Those minor tweaking issues aside, the pieces exceed my expectations, and look great!

Many of the changes I asked for, Justin had already done, so I won't list them. I would like to turn the axle hole 90 degrees, so the weight of the bike is resting on the the flats, as I think someone here mentioned. I had asked that the area around the axle hole be expanded from a 1" radius to 2"; not sure that is necessary, especially if my motor has full-length axles on the next build, with plenty of material against the flat.

I think the enclosed axle hole is going to work out well, I like that it can't slide in the dropout. I might try a pinch clamp version at some point, but after working with the enclosed axle, it really suits me. It will probably not suit motors where the wires come out the end of the axle, because you would have to clip the wires every time you change the motor.

Anyhow, onto the pron, I think these things are beautiful, and have I mentioned how thrilled I am? Great Job Justin!

-JD

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[ohzee]

man that looks nice

[Andje]

amazing. i want some.
i want a cnc machine and a workshop too.

[fractal]

awesome work. did you get your cromotor yet? i cant wait to see it locked in those things!

[dbaker]

Very nice

[oatnet]

My 9.26kv CroMotor has been sold, and I'll consider the 12.98kv CroMotor when/if Accountant gets them in. Most likely the first high-speed candidate to arrive will be the 5403 supermotor from the group buy. I figured that in the meantime, I'll run the old-school 5305 I used to test-fit the dropouts, which won't be any faster than the 9.26kv CroMotor, but it should still be quite peppy on 7-8kw and give the dropouts a good, thorough test.

I continue to be thrilled by the dropouts Magudaman made, every time I see them. I can't order v2.0 from Justin until I get the 54xx's in or order another CroMo, so if you folks need one you should talk to him before I flood him with business.

Things are starting to take shape. I was concerned that a regular stem that merely clamps onto the steerer tube might slip from the forces generated by higher speeds, so I wanted to go with an integrated stem that bolts directly to the upper crown on a RockShox Boxxer. The direct-mounts I found started at about $60, but I found this Funn model on chain-reaction cycles for a little less. While I dithered, the price dropped to only 29.74, and they had a free-shipping holiday sale, so I got (2). Shipping was from the UK to the US, so it took 14 calendar days (including xmas), and unfortunately they didn't put any padding inside the box, but despite two heavy, metal objects bouncing around against each other through an overseas journey, they appear OK. In the long run, I got (2) for less than the price of 1.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=64879


I also wanted to use the 25.4mm On-One "Mary" handlebars I've become come to love. The black mary's are aluminum though, I wanted the stronger CroMo model, which comes in silver. I test-fit it upside down and I like the cafe-racer look, although I might paint it black.

I have a few sets of Gatorbrake 6-pots that I bought from Method's super-cheap sale a few years back. They were made for Zero 2009/2010 Motorcycles, 9" disk front and 8" rear. Boxxer forks require a special adaptor to mount standard brakes so I have been looking for one that would let me use the gatorbrake on 8". On a whim, I test fit the existing Gatorbrake on a boxxer, and to my amazement, it fit perfectly with a few of the included shims. So instead I ordered a pair of 9" disks from Zero to use on the front of each bike. It has been a few days, and they haven't shipped yet, so I hope they still have stock! 9" should look amazing on this bike, especially when I use smaller moped rims.

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=5&products_id=37


The bottom bracket from one of one of my TF frame's fit perfectly, and I'm waiting for a crank-puller to arrive so I can use the crank from a different TF bike. Tonight I'll try to put a Hookworm and cluster on the x5. My method's 100v/100a controller is going on a seatpost-rack, then I sort out the phase/hall pinouts, mount the battery pack on the front, and this test-mule will be a roller!

-JD

Here is how it looked last night! The brake handle, dangling from the center of the bike, demonstrates how absurdly massive the downtube is on the A-Line. The forks look much nicer now too, since I stripped of the giant red BOXXER labels.

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