"Strong" Build. pic heavy.

[neptronix]

This bike is funky, yet oozing with potential. I can see why you forked over for this thing
It will be a head turner always.

Will be watching..

[Brentis]

Thanks Neptronix.
"Peak Power" has me inspired.
I think I will put the Hs3540 back on "Ghetto", use it as a girlfriend bike.
Then build "Strong" with a 20" Pie II.
H.V. Lyen, and 36s2p lipo.
I'm goin' volting nuts
You need a potent machine to compete around here.

Come on tax refund
Or this may take awhile.
I'll have to start with the Pie II, before it dries up and becomes Pie cubed.
I love saying Pie.
PIE.
Must be a sign.

Some updates...

Stripping it down further.
A blank canvas.

Striped. Side.JPG (54.69 KiB) Viewed 563 times

Rear3rd.JPG (52.91 KiB) Viewed 563 times

Will have to pick up a bottom bracket tool to get old smoothy out/ replaced.
Maybe an extended SBP unit for tire clearance.

87mm Bottom Bracket.JPG (56.29 KiB) Viewed 563 times

Time for some clamping dropouts. Thanks Dogman..JPG (58.71 KiB) Viewed 563 times

Enough for a couple of bikes..JPG (58.61 KiB) Viewed 563 times

Some angled steel.
31mm x 31mm. 3mm Thick. 610mm Long.
I will be utilizing the Dogman method.

mongoose pinch dropout.JPG (51.24 KiB) Viewed 563 times

Thanks Dogman.


Stay Tuned....

[neptronix]

Pie II on 36S2P is going to be stupid fast.
20S2P will already beat all the local high powered motorcycles i've encountered out here, and geometry / wheelies with a 26in. wheel in the front has became a serious prob.

You might actually have really good results with a Crystalyte HT in a 20in. rim. There is certainly a lot more magnet and copper in those motors, and the diameter isn't all too different.

If you have the means, you may want to lean towards that direction. It'd be something i would experiment with, personally.
The tradeoff might be worse heat dissipation however.

Good luck. You have a great chassis there. I wish i could get my hands on one of those - it's a poor man's stealth bike, imho.

[Brentis]

Excuse the MS paint. @ least it's quick.

Horizontal dropouts. Bonus..JPG (36.27 KiB) Viewed 558 times

Horizontal clamping dropout..JPG (37.3 KiB) Viewed 558 times

Comments please.
Do you think I could use a third vertical bolt. Then extend wheelbase.
How far do you think I could xtnd wheelbase?
1" resonable to 6" hangin' it out there.
Wheelbase is currently 1195mm/47"
Be wicked to have the adjust ability.
I plan to run single speed.
Bottom bracket is on swingarm.
So chain tension should not be an issue. Right?
Just the appropriate chain length to support whatever wheelbase is chosen.
Do you think this clamping set-up strong enough to do this?

Jaw drop..JPG (33.5 KiB) Viewed 558 times

Cut-way bottom of the dropout.
Then I could use thicker axle'd scooter/motorcycle hubs.

What y'all think?

[Brentis]

Pie II on 36S2P is going to be stupid fast.
20S2P will already beat all the local high powered motorcycles i've encountered out here, and geometry / wheelies with a 26in. wheel in the front has became a serious prob.

You might actually have really good results with a Crystalyte HT in a 20in. rim. There is certainly a lot more magnet and copper in those motors, and the diameter isn't all too different.

If you have the means, you may want to lean towards that direction. It'd be something i would experiment with, personally.
The tradeoff might be worse heat dissipation however.

Good luck. You have a great chassis there. I wish i could get my hands on one of those - it's a poor man's stealth bike, imho.

How does the MPII compare to X5305 in kv?
I was using the X5305 in a 20" wheel, as an example, on the http://ebike.ca/simulator/.
36s @ 3.7 = 132v @ 25amps = 66kph
36s @ 4.0v = 144v @ 25amps = 69kph
36s @ 4.15 = 149.4v @25 amps 70+
No load speed 95kmh
Exact what I'm looking for.
A 40mphclub bike.
60kph up a mild grade.

Undercover Moped

Switch out to a High Speed motor and go 80kmh+ maybe 100kmh @ higher amps.
Clyte Hs3540 in a 20" wheel(gonna need some cooling mods.) is..
36s @ 4.0v= 144v @ 25amps = 68.8kmh. @2850w. What I want.
Still over 80% eff. but seriously amps limited.
36s @ 4.0v= 144v @ 40 amps = 80.8kmh @4500w. Perfect.
36s @ 4.0v= 144v @65 amps = 94kmh @ 7000w. About the limit of Hs3540.
(*edit* No load speed of 140kmh.)
Undercover super 'Ped

But dam'it I wants me one of them thar' 20" cast Pie's.

Options.

Stay tuned....

[Brentis]

Updates...


A couple of MS Paint drawings, see what will fit.

24s2p 8ah Nano-tech.JPG (55.1 KiB) Viewed 515 times

Looks good, 88v 16ah = 1.4kwh approx.
8 big Lipo packs.

36s2p +++.JPG (59.17 KiB) Viewed 515 times

Wont look as polished,but, 132v 10ah = 1.3kwh.
or 88v 15ah = 1.3kwh.
12 smaller Lipo packs. Flexibility.

I thinks I shall build both.

The start.JPG (57.42 KiB) Viewed 515 times

Notice finger jointed dimensional Pine strips. 3/4" x 7/16" x 8'
Time to build a box.

Since the battery is protected from impact by the metal cage.
My battery box does not have to be structurally strong. Just protect Lipo from the elements.
To that end. I thought I'd try a new (to me) product.
*EDIT*
Do not use this product for Battery box building.
It is NOT waterproof. In fact loses all tact, with very little water contact.
I used a gorilla glue product, that is 100% waterproof.
Actually is water activated.
See future update for more info/pics.

frame glued together..JPG (50.08 KiB) Viewed 515 times

Dries fast and has good tack wet. Dries very strong. Good stuff.
Simple cut and paste. Just like Kindergarten

Starting the case.JPG (49.89 KiB) Viewed 515 times

Coming together.JPG (56.37 KiB) Viewed 515 times

Weighing it down..JPG (54.12 KiB) Viewed 515 times

175mm inside tall..JPG (46.07 KiB) Viewed 515 times

105mm inside.JPG (41.39 KiB) Viewed 515 times

Battery case mounted.Side view..JPG (50.76 KiB) Viewed 515 times

Battery case mounted..JPG (55.3 KiB) Viewed 515 times

Battery case mounted. top view..JPG (43.99 KiB) Viewed 515 times

Battery case mounted. Rear 3rd..JPG (45.63 KiB) Viewed 515 times

Birch panels.JPG (38.93 KiB) Viewed 515 times

Ignore miss shaped pieces leaning against. These were cut for a battery box for my
Cell_man 52v 11.5ah pack.

Leather panels..JPG (53.82 KiB) Viewed 515 times

Sacrificial leather jacket. Good quality 1/8" thick cow.
I thinks I will save the leather for a second rectangular box.
Birch panels for L shaped battery box.

More to come.
Stay tuned....

[monkeychops]

Looks good!

I will be interested to see how you feed the wires out of the box. Will you need easy access to the inside of the box?
I'm sticking with the stock plastic battery case on mine for now. It should fit my new controller (coming soon) and theoretically up to 20Ah of lipo. I shied away from getting a big LifePo battery because I couldn't find one that would fit inside the stock case. Didn't really think of making myself a new case... I quite like the spring loaded contact points on the stock frame (I think you've removed them).

[Brentis]

Thanks Monkeychops.

I did pull out the spring contact power transfer.
With the custom case, it would not have been easy to reuse.
All the wiring, boards, fuses, etc will fit in case.
Only power lines will come out, through a grommet, of some sort.
I will also create an access lid.
Likely at the top of the box, facing the stem.

I plan to run the controller on the downtube in the air stream, and use fenders for protection.

24s2p 8ah Nano-tech.JPG (55.1 KiB) Viewed 502 times

Full fenders are mandatory for me.
I hate dirty shit stripe up my back on wet roads.

Ghetto Bird.jpg (103.37 KiB) Viewed 502 times

I like the look as well.

More to come...

[Brentis]

Update....

This box can fit
8 x 6s 8ah Zippy or Nano-Tech
4 MethTek Lipo boards
Big ole' fuse.

88.8v 16ah 1.4kwh. Easy 100amp cont.

Cuttin' up pieces for a 2nd rectangular box..JPG (44.45 KiB) Viewed 482 times

weighting the new box..JPG (45.62 KiB) Viewed 482 times

24s2p8ah box.Controller mounted..JPG (54.6 KiB) Viewed 482 times

24s2p8ah box.Controller mounted. Rear3rd..JPG (58.01 KiB) Viewed 482 times

24s2p8ah box.Controller mounted. F3rd.JPG (58.29 KiB) Viewed 482 times

Lots of shock clearence.JPG (50.04 KiB) Viewed 482 times

Gotta let it dry until tomorrow.
Then I can leather wrap.

Stay tuned...

[Brentis]

Update...

Time for a shop.
Found a kool new store in town.

Sayal Business card..JPG (85.87 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Got myself a

1.My first soldering iron.JPG (84.89 KiB) Viewed 409 times

5way switch.5w to 40w. $63cdn.JPG (62.27 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Also found this beaut.

Where have you been all my life..JPG (52.03 KiB) Viewed 409 times

A bit pricey, but local. To me local is important.

Perfect for 24s2p 8ah Nano-tech..JPG (62.41 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Perfect fit

Case open..JPG (65.19 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Case open. Side..JPG (57.99 KiB) Viewed 409 times

New tire for the burnt up rear..JPG (45.91 KiB) Viewed 409 times

The "extreme range" battery box.

Maybe 3kwh Lipo..JPG (68.41 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Maybe 3kwh Lipo.Front.JPG (64 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Maybe 3kwh Lipo.Front 3rd.JPG (75.35 KiB) Viewed 409 times

Steering is unimpeded. 3+kwh. 88.8v 40ah easy. Future option.

Stay tuned...

[Brentis]

Update...

gonna be supa' clean..JPG (62.96 KiB) Viewed 378 times

Manufactured look. +.JPG (58.71 KiB) Viewed 378 times

Rear 3rd.JPG (63.39 KiB) Viewed 378 times

Front 3rd.JPG (66.71 KiB) Viewed 378 times

Lookin' up from the rear tire..JPG (37.53 KiB) Viewed 378 times

Lookin' down from the stem..JPG (43.5 KiB) Viewed 378 times

90mm strumey drum+++.JPG (54.12 KiB) Viewed 378 times

Should fit
88.8v 16ahNano = 1.4kwh.
20"Hs3540 @40amps =
107ft.lb @ 0rpm
2550w @ 66kmh
Lot's of fun

Stay tuned...

[monkeychops]

Like the metal box. It looks a really good fit.
Will you have the controller underneath in this configuration as well?

[Brentis]

Like the metal box. It looks a really good fit.
Will you have the controller underneath in this configuration as well?

Thank you.

I am considering this set-up instead.

Optional controller location..JPG (62.44 KiB) Viewed 349 times

Optional controller location.2.JPG (67 KiB) Viewed 349 times

Optional controller location. Good wire location..JPG (64.05 KiB) Viewed 349 times

A bit tight on the thighs when pedaled, but
I don't pedal much.
Lets call it...
Passable.


Stay tuned...

[JoramsWeapon]

Hey great work on the GT! I bought the same thing locally for real cheap last year and made some enhancements to the controller and battery , a also kept the brush geared motor it's a Brett White P2B or P2A and it does take the watts pretty well. I hadn't noticed it before but I go in the garage and check the rear suspension and mine is backwards as well! The frame is heavy and because of the reversed suspension it handled like an overfed pig. 77lbs without batteries...

I was able to cram a maximum of 15S4P of A123 26650 into the original battery box, I'm anxious to see how yours will look when finished as I'm going to take a similar route after I drop the Greyborg motor into that frame when it becomes available !

[teklektik]

I wonder where a guy could find one of those?

Looks like nicobie found a source!
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=29503&p=524996#p524996

[JoramsWeapon]

Here is my battery case layout before I used a dremel to wear down the plastic separators, 15S4P.

and after soldering up

I could have crammed another 4 cells in there to make it 16S4P but 15S was easier to charge. How is your aluminum battery box holding up?

[Brentis]

Good job J.W.

I have considered sticking with an A123 pack(cell_man).
16s4p fits nice and tight, keeps the manufactured look,
and is basically maintenance free.

Alas, I need more voltage and capacity for what I plan.
I want an honest 64kmh/40mph bike.
Having the flexibility of Lipo, to run either a high voltage/low capacity fast bike.
or lower voltage/higher capacity commuter is paramount.


I haven't used the alu. case yet,as I am still saving my pennies for the lipo packs.
I'll be sure to update when I do.

It's reassuring to see a few of these frames being used.
Where abouts are you located?
Seems quite a few of these were sold in the UK.
Here in Canada they sold coast to coast @ Canadian Tire stores, but each store only moved a few units.
Too expensive I guess ($1000) compared to the Schwinn IZip @ half the price
and the same speed limit, of which they sold plenty.

Back in 2008 when I first got the ebike bug, not knowing anything E, I purchased the Strong.
I was impressed with full suspension, disk brakes, lights, horn, etc.
I rode it for 1 day before it mysteriously "died", in hind sight it was probably a simple fix.
I was pissed, a $1000 for 1 days use. I took it back to the store.
They told me that they had a guy who takes care of the ebikes warranty.
He only came to that store once a month though.

"Give me my money back."
"Sorry we won't except returns on bikes."

I calmly express my displeasure.
They decide that I can exchange for another. I didn't trust that it wouldn't breakdown to.
They suggested I take the Schwinn, plus a few hundred dollars, instead. Much lower rate of problems.
I bit.
Glad I did, because if I got a full return refund, I may never have looked at another Ebike again.

Take care.

[shock]

Cool build! I like the look of the DIY aluminum box. I would fill that with LiPos and be done with it.

My Question is why 20" wheels and not 26"?

[Brentis]

Cool build! I like the look of the DIY aluminum box. I would fill that with LiPos and be done with it.

My Question is why 20" wheels and not 26"?

First.
I likes me some torque.
Given equal volts/amps, a 20" wheel will have more torque/less speed than a 26" wheel.
It should also run cooler/ be easier on controllers.

Second
I am looking to build something closer to a moped than a bike.
So a tire upgrade seems prudent.
16" moped tires just happen to fit 20" bicycle rims.

Third

I think it looks kool.


There are other reasons, but I am writing this on an iPhone, and my patience with this format just ran out.

Stay tuned...

[Brentis]

Cool build! I like the look of the DIY aluminum box. I would fill that with LiPos and be done with it.

My Question is why 20" wheels and not 26"?

First.
I likes me some torque.
Given equal volts/amps, a 20" wheel will have more torque/less speed than a 26" wheel.
It should also run cooler/ be easier on controllers.

Second
I am looking to build something closer to a moped than a bike.
So a tire upgrade seems prudent.
16" moped tires just happen to fit 20" bicycle rims.

Third

I think it looks kool.


There are other reasons, but I am writing this on an iPhone, and my patience with this format just ran out.

Stay tuned...

Some more thoughts on 20" vs. 26"...

This build is currently using a C-Lyte Hx3540.
A fairly fast wind.(I see Ebikes.ca is offering a 3548 now )
I also want to pop my Lipo cherry on this build.
I plan to start with 24s2p.
88.8v nom 99.6v hot
88.8@40amps on a 21.5"(pirelli) Hs3540=
72.5kph top speed.
2650w peak
100'lbs @ 0rpm
Overheat in 58min. 83.7%eff.
in a race tuck
I am looking for 60kph, so good headroom.

Under the same voltage, amperage, conditions.
88.8v@40amps on a 26" Hs3540=
75.4kph top speed.
2650w peak
83'lbs @0rpm
Overheat in14mins still 81.5 eff. but much narrower efficiency band.

So theoretically, a 26" gains 3kph, loses 17'lbs, an burns up vs. a moped tired 20".
No choice to me.

20" conversions of 26" bikes, create its own set of challenges.
Potential geometry issues, Pedal strike, crank strike, parts fitment.
I think the challenge is worth the reward.
I have had to deal with clearance issues on all my builds.(see sig.)
It can be overcome.

My next build will include a custom frame, based on Strong,
but designed to accommodate any hub motor,Bike, Scooter,Moto.
And better designed Batt.area/rear shock placement/seat area.
Still in the paper drawing stage, but I gotta keep the mind busy.
Time to take some welding classes.

Stay tuned...

[JoramsWeapon]

Good job J.W.

I have considered sticking with an A123 pack(cell_man).
16s4p fits nice and tight, keeps the manufactured look,
and is basically maintenance free.

Alas, I need more voltage and capacity for what I plan.
I want an honest 64kmh/40mph bike.
Having the flexibility of Lipo, to run either a high voltage/low capacity fast bike.
or lower voltage/higher capacity commuter is paramount.


I haven't used the alu. case yet,as I am still saving my pennies for the lipo packs.
I'll be sure to update when I do.

It's reassuring to see a few of these frames being used.
Where abouts are you located?
Seems quite a few of these were sold in the UK.
Here in Canada they sold coast to coast @ Canadian Tire stores, but each store only moved a few units.
Too expensive I guess ($1000) compared to the Schwinn IZip @ half the price
and the same speed limit, of which they sold plenty.

Back in 2008 when I first got the ebike bug, not knowing anything E, I purchased the Strong.
I was impressed with full suspension, disk brakes, lights, horn, etc.
I rode it for 1 day before it mysteriously "died", in hind sight it was probably a simple fix.
I was pissed, a $1000 for 1 days use. I took it back to the store.
They told me that they had a guy who takes care of the ebikes warranty.
He only came to that store once a month though.

"Give me my money back."
"Sorry we won't except returns on bikes."

I calmly express my displeasure.
They decide that I can exchange for another. I didn't trust that it wouldn't breakdown to.
They suggested I take the Schwinn, plus a few hundred dollars, instead. Much lower rate of problems.
I bit.
Glad I did, because if I got a full return refund, I may never have looked at another Ebike again.

Take care.

I'm located in Ottawa and I remember the Strong GT's were sold for about $1200 regular price and $1000 on sale at Canadian Tire, I would never have pumped up that kind of cash for a consumer-grade ebike (meaning, govt-regulated noob machine with no ooomph). So I purchased the Schwinn Invidia--an IZIP with "unisex" frame--on sale for $400 with the intention of overvolting it and was satisfied with it for the first week or so but it didn't give me the ebike grin I got with my later builds. I also didn't like the build quality at all: the rear rim wasn't trued properly and I had to exchange the lead batts 3 times in 2 months because it only gave me 10km range or less on a full charge WITH aggressive pedaling. I have since converted it to a 7S10P LiMn setup, reduced the drive sprocket by 4 Teeth for higher top speed and sold it to a friend for cheap. That will be the last ebike I purchase off the shelf, if I can't build it myself I just won't bother.

By the way on page 2 of this thread you talked about the lateral strength of the swing arm pivot being that it was only 2 1/2" across with 1/4" tangs and if it would be able to take 60km/h + with heavy rims. When we reduce the rim size designed for the frame we're going to increase the stress on the swingarm and reduce load-carrying capacity. Being a steel frame it already handles like a pig and I personally lack the equipment (and the spare parts) to see just how much stress that pivot will take before getting a hairline fracture. We could use a different monoshock or if possible adjust the one we already have for slightly less travel. What do you think?

I also like your idea of using drum brakes for the front rim, where did you get the 90mm Sturney? All I could find was 70mm...

-J.W.

[Brentis]

...
I'm located in Ottawa and I remember the Strong GT's were sold for about $1200 regular price and $1000 on sale at Canadian Tire, I would never have pumped up that kind of cash for a consumer-grade ebike (meaning, govt-regulated noob machine with no ooomph). So I purchased the Schwinn Invidia--an IZIP with "unisex" frame--on sale for $400 with the intention of overvolting it and was satisfied with it for the first week or so but it didn't give me the ebike grin I got with my later builds. I also didn't like the build quality at all: the rear rim wasn't trued properly and I had to exchange the lead batts 3 times in 2 months because it only gave me 10km range or less on a full charge WITH aggressive pedaling. I have since converted it to a 7S10P LiMn setup, reduced the drive sprocket by 4 Teeth for higher top speed and sold it to a friend for cheap. That will be the last ebike I purchase off the shelf, if I can't build it myself I just won't bother.

By the way on page 2 of this thread you talked about the lateral strength of the swing arm pivot being that it was only 2 1/2" across with 1/4" tangs and if it would be able to take 60km/h + with heavy rims. When we reduce the rim size designed for the frame we're going to increase the stress on the swingarm and reduce load-carrying capacity. Being a steel frame it already handles like a pig and I personally lack the equipment (and the spare parts) to see just how much stress that pivot will take before getting a hairline fracture. We could use a different monoshock or if possible adjust the one we already have for slightly less travel. What do you think?

I also like your idea of using drum brakes for the front rim, where did you get the 90mm Sturney? All I could find was 70mm...

-J.W.

That's kool that your local
I hope someday we can stage a race out your way.
Toronto and west can drive/train it in.
Montreal & Quebec city can come and play.
Maybe even the maritimes could make it.
An eastern Ontario race


I quite liked my IZip.
The early version, with Batt. located behind seatpost in a cage.
It was torquey, reliable and cheap.
I went through rear rims like no ones business though.
Then I really got into ES. & learned better.


I am cautiously optimistic about pivot strength.
The rear shock has a 750# spring.
I think that helps. I get maybe an 1.5" of travel.
It felt good and laterally stable when I last rode it.
Granted @ only 30kph. & I want 60+kph.
I'll be sure to monitor.

I love the Sturmey Drum.
I bought it off Ebay.
One of the big sellers. I dont recall.
Very good experience.
Ended up costing $100cdn to my door.
Not bad. Shipped from SW states IIRC. in only 3days
I would have paid more local, but good luck finding anyone round Barrie.
I even tried bike shops in the GTA. Nut.
Would recommend holding out for the 90mm version.
I saw a pic showing the insides of 90 & 70 together.
The 90 is a BIG difference.
I believe they are intended for cargo bike, surrey's, tandems,etc.

But alas, it is on Strong for pics only.
My "Ghetto" build for which it will go back on & was designed for.
Is a 40kph bike. I was completely confident in it. Maintenance free & easy clean to boot.

For aggressive riding @60+kph,
I would highly recommend Hydraulic Discs.
Which I will use with Lipo upgrade.

Peace

[Brentis]

Update...

Make sure you carefully read the whole label before using a new product.

frame glued together..JPG (50.08 KiB) Viewed 569 times

This product, while fine for interiors, has almost zero resistance to water.
If the glue gets moist it loses all tack. DO NOT USE, as I suggested.
This is what will happen.
What is left intact,used Gorilla glue as an adhesive.

Pile of bones.JPG (45.86 KiB) Viewed 569 times

To properly glue together a battery box use this

This is the good stuff..JPG (59.82 KiB) Viewed 569 times

100% waterproof. In fact it is water activated.
It makes for a box that feels, as if carved from a single block of wood.
Wood welding.

Apologies for the confusion.

Stay tuned...

[nicobie]

I hate that stuff. All it does is make a mess and doesn't work as well as regular yellow carpenters glue. Epoxy might help a little, but I'm afraid that anything you use on a plain butt joint in end grain will fail. Mortise and tenon joints would be the best. If nothing else, after it's glued up drill holes and glue dowels into each joint. Then if you skin the box on all sides with something strong it might hold up for awhile.

[Brentis]

I hate that stuff. All it does is make a mess and doesn't work as well as regular yellow carpenters glue. Epoxy might help a little, but I'm afraid that anything you use on a plain butt joint in end grain will fail. Mortise and tenon joints would be the best. If nothing else, after it's glued up drill holes and glue dowels into each joint. Then if you skin the box on all sides with something strong it might hold up for awhile.

I considered dowels but its just to tight.
Because the cage of the frame provides the strength/support, I'm not too worried.
The wood box is just acting like pretty Duct Tape.

I hate that stuff. All it does is make a mess and doesn't work as well as regular yellow carpenters glue...

I really like it. Find it very strong for this purpose.
I think the key is prep & to not, over apply, as far as mess goes.