Intense M3 + Clyte HT3525 + HD video

[Timma2500]

Cheers Matt, any progress with your Reign? Hey where'd you get it acid dipped? Did they sting you much?

Sorry Toby, i hope i didn't hit a nerve mate I know what your saying, but i'm like Whiplash, i'd rather build than buy

Thanks for the tip Full-Throttle, but the DHX5.0 is brand new. It was a Marzocchi Rocco that was dead as a door nail. The bloke forewarned me it was dead and gave me the frame much cheaper because of it. Ofcourse i didn't tell him i already had the DHX there waiting to fit lol...

Ta Keyne - yeah the 30kg target will be hard to meet with the Bomber forks, HT and 1260wh of lipo but we'll see how close i can get. Under 33kg would be good
Hyena also suggested a 12fet would be enough so i'm really not sure which way to go with this. I'd prefer an 18fet for peace of mind but the 12fet is alot smaller physically and easier to package on the frame... I wont be ordering from Lyen for a while so i've got time to mull it over and make a decision. Btw i love your DH comp build, those covers look great!

Haha i bet you'll be supportive Kim! I'm only going to use it on the relatively smooth trails down here in Rocko and the ones down outside Donnybrook, not the rough as guts trails up at Roleystone so it should be ok for its intended purpose. And also group rides just to stir you haha!
The Norco / Cyclone rebuild will handle the rough stuff


Paul

[Justtoby]

Sorry Toby, i hope i didn't hit a nerve mate I know what your saying, but i'm like Whiplash, i'd rather build than buy


Paul

No offence taken at all. Stealths just take a bashing on self build sites and just wanted to defend a little. I am slowly building Patriot in to an E bike and I own a Bomber so looking at it from both sides of the fence.

[Garrick_s]

Curious as to if you plan on a Direct Drive hub motor or a geared one (maybe I missed it in the thread).
I eventually went through two geared hubs and ended up with a direct drive.

The "clutch"...for a lack of better terminology, just couldn't hack it.

I miss the torque, range and weight savings of the geared hub, but the top speed of the Direct along with the abuse it can take, was worth it.

Just two more cents for you to put toward your new build.

I have been looking at the Specialized Demo 8 frames for such a build (as far as modifying the frame).
So I will be watching this build to see how it goes.
Good luck!

[Timma2500]

I had a surprise today, I'd mentioned to my girlfriend that CRC had free shipping till today so she and my mother plotted together and gave me $200 for Xmas to spend on the build, you rock girls!

It worked out really well, as CRC has another offer at the moment that if you spend $200AUD, you get $30 off your purchases at the checkout so the following was $210, my cost was $180 with no shipping as a bonus, sweet!

34 tooth

Renthal SR4 Ultralite Alloy Chainring.jpg (126.52 KiB) Viewed 2594 times

2.7"

Maxxis Minion DH front tyre - Dual Ply 42a, 60a.jpg (19.08 KiB) Viewed 2594 times

26" x 2.5" - 2.7"

Continental DH tubes.jpg (32.79 KiB) Viewed 2594 times

So i've ordered the 2.7" Maxxis Minions, Renthal 34t Ultralite chainring, DH tubes and some ODI Lockjaw clamps for the ODI half grips i've already got tucked away.
I'd read that a few top racers like to use a front Minion tyre on the rear as well so i went this route, ordering a hard compound for the rear and a super sticky soft compound for the front.

Sram XO Grip Shifter 8 - 9spd.jpg (10.14 KiB) Viewed 2594 times

Apparently these XO 9spd shifters can be used with an 8spd freewheel as well, i hope so as i've got a spare here already. I use one on the LHS on the Specialized and love it as it moves it away from the throttle and keeps things un-cluttered on the bars.

I am slowly building Patriot in to an E bike

I've got a soft spot for the Orange bikes too, i'd love to convert a 224 I hope your going to start a build thread? Hub or mid-drive?

Curious as to if you plan on a Direct Drive hub motor or a geared one (maybe I missed it in the thread).
I eventually went through two geared hubs and ended up with a direct drive.

The "clutch"...for a lack of better terminology, just couldn't hack it.

I miss the torque, range and weight savings of the geared hub, but the top speed of the Direct along with the abuse it can take, was worth it.

Just two more cents for you to put toward your new build.

I have been looking at the Specialized Demo 8 frames for such a build (as far as modifying the frame).

Hi Garrick, i was going to use a Mac for its lighter weight and torque as well but was worried about the clutch and or gears not being up to task on dirt.
So i'm going to use a sensored Clyte HT3525 from Hyena on 84v / 60a peak.
You went for a 9C didn't you?

Those Demo frames i reckon would be a good one to convert, are you going to do a complete front end chop?

Paul


Edited typos...

[sn0wchyld]

Cheers Matt, any progress with your Reign? Hey where'd you get it acid dipped? Did they sting you much?

Sorry Toby, i hope i didn't hit a nerve mate I know what your saying, but i'm like Whiplash, i'd rather build than buy

Thanks for the tip Full-Throttle, but the DHX5.0 is brand new. It was a Marzocchi Rocco that was dead as a door nail. The bloke forewarned me it was dead and gave me the frame much cheaper because of it. Ofcourse i didn't tell him i already had the DHX there waiting to fit lol...

Ta Keyne - yeah the 30kg target will be hard to meet with the Bomber forks, HT and 1260wh of lipo but we'll see how close i can get. Under 33kg would be good
Hyena also suggested a 12fet would be enough so i'm really not sure which way to go with this. I'd prefer an 18fet for peace of mind but the 12fet is alot smaller physically and easier to package on the frame... I wont be ordering from Lyen for a while so i've got time to mull it over and make a decision. Btw i love your DH comp build, those covers look great!

Haha i bet you'll be supportive Kim! I'm only going to use it on the relatively smooth trails down here in Rocko and the ones down outside Donnybrook, not the rough as guts trails up at Roleystone so it should be ok for its intended purpose. And also group rides just to stir you haha!
The Norco / Cyclone rebuild will handle the rough stuff


Paul

I'd back hyena and say a 12 is plenty, particually given your using a HT. run 24s lipo an hold on, these motors pull like a mule with just the default settings (40a)! up a 20% grade at about 40km/h! 18 is overkill, participially for flat ground/small hills. depends on how much boggy acceleration you'll be doing though. 18fet will likely burn this motor in quick order unless you ride nice.

good frame choice, are they removable dropouts i see ?

and yea, go for atleast 13g spokes, possibly 12. ive been snapping swiss SS 14g spokes like there twigs, its the low down torque combined with any type of shock on the wheel that kills 'em most, but normal riding will still break them eventually. im ordering some 12's off JHH and drilling out the eyelets asap.

how much is the bike before any additions? doing it with 1200wh's of batteries is going to be a challenge (my norko with 1kwh is about 40kg...)

Are you modding the frame on this one too? looking forward to what this becomes, I loved your last build. It is one of the inspirations for my new build, a old avanti d8 that'll be modded to house the bats much like yours.



ps
i generally ride fairly 'gently' but my 12fet never gets hot even with big climbs, 40's been about the max its gotten to, 50deg for the motor (on the outer case).

[Justtoby]

I plan to use a hub motor and I am toying with getting a spare rear for my bomber with the high speed wind, I can stick it on my bomber and put the high torque in the patriot but swap back and forwards. The patriot is a nice frame but not sure which mine is. Brendan Fairclough (world down hill champ) lives near me. And has a few patriots in his workshop. It they are heavily outnumbered by 2013 carbon specialised downhill bikes as they. Ow sponsor him.

[Kepler]

I'd back hyena and say a 12 is plenty, particually given your using a HT. run 24s lipo an hold on, these motors pull like a mule with just the default settings (40a)! up a 20% grade at about 40km/h! 18 is overkill, participially for flat ground/small hills. depends on how much boggy acceleration you'll be doing though. 18fet will likely burn this motor in quick order unless you ride nice.

Hyena knows his stuff that's for sure. A 12 fet will probably be up to the task. Worth mentioning though that Stealth Fighters using basically the same motor now all run 18fet controllers. I am tipping there is a very good reason for this

[full-throttle]

good frame choice

This is what this bike is capable of in the hands of an aussie

http://www.pinkbike.com/video/231118/

[sn0wchyld]

I'd back hyena and say a 12 is plenty, particually given your using a HT. run 24s lipo an hold on, these motors pull like a mule with just the default settings (40a)! up a 20% grade at about 40km/h! 18 is overkill, participially for flat ground/small hills. depends on how much boggy acceleration you'll be doing though. 18fet will likely burn this motor in quick order unless you ride nice.

Hyena knows his stuff that's for sure. A 12 fet will probably be up to the task. Worth mentioning though that Stealth Fighters using basically the same motor now all run 18fet controllers. I am tipping there is a very good reason for this

dont stealth's have temp monitoring that cuts power when things get to hot? if I had a temp probe, 18 would be fine... mind you, it'd also be much harder to mount.

[Timma2500]

I'd back hyena and say a 12 is plenty, particually given your using a HT. run 24s lipo an hold on, these motors pull like a mule with just the default settings (40a)! up a 20% grade at about 40km/h! 18 is overkill, participially for flat ground/small hills. depends on how much boggy acceleration you'll be doing though. 18fet will likely burn this motor in quick order unless you ride nice.

Hmm so if i go for a 12fet, i risk blowing it up if i get too throttle happy and carried away. If i go for the 18fet, i risk burning up the motor? Would the 18fet supply the current in a more agressive manor?

good frame choice, are they removable dropouts i see ?

Why yes they are
Though i won't totally rely on them to resist the hub's torque, i plan on welding some gussets to the swingarm just in front of the dropout mounts and also bolting the torque arms to these to help disperse the force.

and yea, go for atleast 13g spokes, possibly 12. ive been snapping swiss SS 14g spokes like there twigs, its the low down torque combined with any type of shock on the wheel that kills 'em most, but normal riding will still break them eventually. im ordering some 12's off JHH and drilling out the eyelets asap.

I wonder if ya can get 12/13g hybrid spokes, 12g at the flange and 13g at the threaded end? I'd rather not have to drill out the eyelets if possible.

how much is the bike before any additions? doing it with 1200wh's of batteries is going to be a challenge (my norko with 1kwh is about 40kg...)

Reading this made me go out and weigh the bike. With everything on the pre-e converted bike apart from the back wheel and brake lever/callipers, it sits at 18kg. Factor in 10kg for the complete rear wheel, 9kg of lipo and around 3kg for the brakes, controller and aluminium box and i'm up to 40kg like your Norco
Oh well never mind, it'll still come in about 15kg lighter than a Bomber so i'm ok with that. I only weigh 67kg so the all up rider and bike weight will still be reasonably light compared to others.

Are you modding the frame on this one too? looking forward to what this becomes, I loved your last build. It is one of the inspirations for my new build, a old avanti d8 that'll be modded to house the bats much like yours.

Yep its getting the chop too, the black lines on the frame pic in the 1st post show where its getting cut and where the battery cover will be on the LHS. The D8's were chrome moly weren't they? Should be a solid platform to build with

I plan to use a hub motor and I am toying with getting a spare rear for my bomber with the high speed wind, I can stick it on my bomber and put the high torque in the patriot but swap back and forwards. The patriot is a nice frame but not sure which mine is. Brendan Fairclough (world down hill champ) lives near me. And has a few patriots in his workshop. It they are heavily outnumbered by 2013 carbon specialised downhill bikes as they. Ow sponsor him.

Nice one, that'll give you good flexibility being able to swap them back and forth. Are you going to get one of Brendan Fairclough's old patriots?!!
Man he and Sam Hill are bloody fast riders!

Hyena knows his stuff that's for sure. A 12 fet will probably be up to the task. Worth mentioning though that Stealth Fighters using basically the same motor now all run 18fet controllers. I am tipping there is a very good reason for this

Bugger it, i feel like flipping some coins "two up" style and basing my decision on that! Damned if i do and damned if i don't!

This is what this bike is capable of in the hands of an aussie

http://www.pinkbike.com/video/231118/

good frame choice

Holy crap he is a freak of nature! I was lucky enough to meet Chris Kovarik back when i was friends with the then owner of Ashgrove Cycles who sponsored Chris as he was just getting into pro downhilling. Back then (circa 1997ish?) Chris was still working as a labourer if i remember correctly, nice guy too.

dont stealth's have temp monitoring that cuts power when things get too hot? if I had a temp probe, 18 would be fine... mind you, it'd also be much harder to mount.

One of the other boys will have to comment on the temp probe thing. Mounting an 18fet doesn't worry me, thats easy enough


Well i'm off to Bali at 4am tomorrow so will bid you all farewell for this year, thanks for taking the time to add your input to my humble thread, stay safe and have a wonderful Xmas and New Years everyone I'll try to get to a net cafe or something similar when i'm either not inebriated or perving on scantlly clad young ladies on the beach


Paul

[AussieJester]

The bomber is 45 kilo Paul same weight as my blue cruiser...you will come in 5 kilo lighter not 15... ROFLMFA off at
you thinking the rear wheel will weigh ONLY 10 kilo... didnt factor in the rim and spokes or give
a correct weight of the frock ... **Un-Subscribed** and uninterested ..

KiM

p.s you will need to heat treat the aluminium after you modify the frame
it will loose over half its strength otherwise, just so you know frock boi

[Timma2500]

For weight reference, my HT motor with 13/14ga spokes, Sun MTX 39 rim, Hookworm 26x2.5", tube and Tuffy Lite liner weigh 10.24 kg

Sozz Kim, i was 0.24kg out

The bomber is 45 kilo Paul same weight as my blue cruiser...you will come in 5 kilo lighter not 15...

Their site lists the Bomber at 53kg mate, still puts me around 13kg lighter


Paul

[sico]

T **Un-Subscribed** and uninterested ..

Paul, now that KiM is gone can you tell me how much your cyclone bike weighs? I got my 9C hubbie down to 25kg, and there was some *discussion* (read AJ baiting me ) about whether yours was lighter or not?

Cheers,

Simon.

[Philistine]

^Don't mean to go OT from Sico's Q, so please answer that first Timmah, but I couldn't help picking on this:

18fet will likely burn this motor in quick order unless you ride nice.
Hmm so if i go for a 12fet, i risk blowing it up if i get too throttle happy and carried away. If i go for the 18fet, i risk burning up the motor? Would the 18fet supply the current in a more agressive manor?

A higher fet controller won't burn your motor any faster, it is just that it will be able to feed more current if that is what you set it to do. In my opinion you should always run the biggest controller you can fit on your bike. It is irrelevant what size your controller is, it simply matters what current you feed it for how long. But why run your controller at the limits of its current capability (unless space is a premium)?

I only note this because I have seen this said on other threads (the inference that a bigger controller is harder on a motor per se), and I don't understand the inference. Obviously having a bigger controller will allow more current, which if you push it too far will smoke a motor, but why not have a controller that can take your motor to its limits, rather than having unused current ability of your motor (because the controller can't feed the current). I can understand the size argument, but personally I run 24 fet controllers on all my builds (and I just find a way to make the controller fit), I would rather have a shoe box sized controller fitted to my bike, but know that I can max hardcore my motor if I want and never worry about blowing a controller.

It is true the HT will be relatively easy on the controller, but I have gotten my 12 Fet controllers pretty damn toasty on 50amp settings with HS, X5 and 9c motors (I do weigh 95kg though and I run WOT all the time and I am allergic to pedalling). My advice is if you intend to go over 40amps, go 18 Fet if it will fit, but 12 will do the job if space is a premium. Just my two cents.

[Timma2500]

Paul, now that KiM is gone can you tell me how much your cyclone bike weighs? I got my 9C hubbie down to 25kg, and there was some *discussion* (read AJ baiting me ) about whether yours was lighter or not?

In its current spec with 150mm travel coil forks and 2.35" dirt tyres, i think its about 27kg from memory. With the 1.2" slicks and 140mm rockshox pike air forks, its about 25kg so theres not much in it simon!
You are now armed with frock motor ammunition against Kim

Philistine: Pick away mate as i really wasn't sure if there was a notable difference in the way the 12 and 18 fet controllers supplied power to the motor (the 12 fet being milder than the 18). What you say makes perfect sense and yes i agree it'd be best to go with the bigger controller so as to not tax it as much per amps delivered. Given i'm looking at running 60a if not a little more, then maybe an 18 fet is the way to go. I am light - 67kg and love to pedal to assist power and range so maybe the motor will be ok with this. I'll just have to be mindful during those times of hard sustained WOT or accelleration that i'll need to keep an eye on the motor temps. Cheers bud

Well i need to be up in 2hrs to go to the airport so i bid you all farewell again... Zzzz


Paul

[gwhy!]

There is no reason why a 12fet modded controller can not do 100A with a hub motor but if you want to be on the safe side 80A is more than doable, I have run 80A on a 6fet and a 12fet for long periods with a rc motor with no ill effects.

[cell_man]

I'd say 60A is 18fet territory if you want to have good reliability. No point pushing a 12 fet beyond what it can safely deliver.

[gwhy!]

I'd say 60A is 18fet territory if you want to have good reliability. No point pushing a 12 fet beyond what it can safely deliver.

2 years at 80A on a 6 fet i would say thats pretty reliable wouldnt you ? no reason why a 12fet cant do it.

[full-throttle]

Their site lists the Bomber at 53kg

Mine is 43.8kg with HS motor and other changes. Could bring it down another 3kg by changing the rear shock to air-sprung one.

You should get yours down to 30kg

re: 12-fet controllers
Mine is 70A peak 12-fet sensorless, heavily modified. Barely gets warm. It's the motor I worry about

[Timma2500]

I'm still unsure which way to go controller wise, everyone has valid points and real world experience regarding this decision so i'll mull it over for a little longer yet 'till i have the coin to purchase one...

Nothing to really update 'cept some parts came in. Tyres, hd tubes, grips and renthal chainring arrived:

ODI half grips / X0 shifter

006.JPG (192.68 KiB) Viewed 1140 times

34T Renthal chainring

010.JPG (188.56 KiB) Viewed 1140 times

Super Tacky 2.7" Minion - front

012.JPG (187.71 KiB) Viewed 1140 times

60A Hard compound 2.7" Minion - rear

018.JPG (187.99 KiB) Viewed 1140 times

And some existing parts i had lying around:

WTB Devo carbon / titanium seat, carbon seatpost

009.JPG (186.65 KiB) Viewed 1140 times

RaceFace bash ring / titanium chainring bolts / Shimano Saint cranks

021.JPG (217.45 KiB) Viewed 1140 times

The bashring i already had, the cranks came with the frame.

M3 with more parts added

004.JPG (201 KiB) Viewed 1140 times

Timma2500 wrote:
Their site lists the Bomber at 53kgMine is 43.8kg with HS motor and other changes. Could bring it down another 3kg by changing the rear shock to air-sprung one.

You should get yours down to 30kg

I'm not too concerned with weight on this bike though if i went to a 180mm single crown airsprung fork, Marzocchi Rocco air shock and only a 10ah lipo i could save around 5 - 6kg in pork but theres over a $1.3k in forks and shock there so i'll stick with what i've got for now...

It's the motor I worry about

Thats my main concern too, i'd rather have to replace a controller than a complete hub motor...



Paul

[Dlogic]

Hi there, you might want to check out my HT motor pimp thread under:

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=34817

Basically these motors are crap!!!! At least when compared to the X5. Ok, not as heavy, but noisy and weak. I got so disappointed when doing my test rides with this motor powering my stealth bomber, that i reprogrammed my 24 FET Lyen controller for an output of 5 Kw. The results where as follows.

1. The torque is not even near the X5 5403.
2. The motors windings melted after only 3.7 Km.
3. The top speed was 72 Km.

My conclusion:

1. All the time spent to improve this motor was nothing but a waste.
2. The minute you go for 5 Kw´s your motors lifespan will be reduced to seconds.
3. Get an X5, it´s heavy, but size does matter. At least when you want power!!

[Ypedal]

... Basically these motors are crap!!!! At least when compared to the X5. .
...
3. Get an X5, it´s heavy, but size does matter. At least when you want power!!

they are improvement, at 500w ( what 99% of them will run on ) ... but not at 5000 ! lol..

[Kepler]

I really think these motors really are a 3000 W motor. 4000W if you only use this for short periods at this level.

After a recent hard ride with me on my Bomber and a mate on a 4000W HT powered Fighter, outer casing as measured with a Fluke infrared heat gun was as follows.
HT=> 70 degC
X5405=> 65 degC

Both bikes were riden with a mix of fast straights and steep tracks with both bikes using quite a few periods of full throttle.
With my higher output, I would accelerate significantly quicker, but we basically stayed together over the period of the ride.

Not quote sure if that's a useful comparison but I figured it gives a bit of an idea of what to expect.

[full-throttle]

I'll 2nd what Kepler wrote

3kW - ok
4kW - you'd better know what you're doing
5kW - pushing your luck

Regardless of power it's the heat that kills them, so don't spend too long at low throttle

[Dlogic]

Yup, figured that one out quickly. Just thought it would be good to write it here since this post is about a 5Kw bike. I'll stick to my X5 for the moment until something even better is discovered. Maybe there is allready but I just don't know yet.