"peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby neptronix » Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:59 pm

OK. Dual suspension extended swingarm thing not working out.
I cannot find a proper frame.

Pirelli M75 2.75" rear tire ordered.
Temp sensor purchased.

No turning back, now. I'm sticking with the Trek. And i need to get off my ass and start doing testing.
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The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Bafang BBS02 on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby o00scorpion00o » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:06 pm

Hey Dave,

Good stuff, looking forward to the test data!

The good old trek lives on! :mrgreen:
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby auraslip » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:16 pm

Awesome! You'll be the first guy to report on how much power the magic pie can really handle!

I just ordered some 18" motorcycle rims. Looks like wheel both be in the moped tire club soon.
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby zombiess » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:17 pm

neptronix wrote:OK. Dual suspension extended swingarm thing not working out.
I cannot find a proper frame.


I thought you bought one similar to mine? I did mine and didn't exactly have much skill, just a friend who extended the swing arm real quick.
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby chroot » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:48 pm

so you gave up the Genesis MTB?
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby neptronix » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:53 pm

zombiess wrote:
neptronix wrote:OK. Dual suspension extended swingarm thing not working out.
I cannot find a proper frame.


I thought you bought one similar to mine? I did mine and didn't exactly have much skill, just a friend who extended the swing arm real quick.


Yeah, i did. It's the larger version of what you have. It really is just way too damn small for me, after i had it mostly together.
Also, same bottom bracket problem if i drop down to a front 20" wheel even with the longer shock.
Also, don't wanna bother with the threaded 1in. steer tube.
It's just so heavy and crappy that i'm basically just gonna throw it away after the race and not have a use for it anymore.

So i'll go back to the original idea. Moving to Utah after the race so i don't have any extra $ to blow anyway. The race entry fee is bad enough ( $130 or so ) and i did not get the tax return i thought i was getting so this project is on a kinda pathetic shoestring, lol.
ES facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/125035107565566

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Bafang BBS02 on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby neptronix » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:57 pm

chroot wrote:so you gave up the Genesis MTB?


I'm not sure what to do with the Genesis at the moment. I like riding it as my primary pedal bike.. Just haven't sorted out how to mount batteries to it yet. Got some doctorbass torque plates in tho. These things are serious business!!
ES facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/125035107565566

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Bafang BBS02 on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby neptronix » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:30 pm

Image

Damnit, in trying to put the temp sensor in, i managed to chew up the hall sensor insulation, phase wire insulation, the wiring for the temp sensor, and so forth.

The external magic pie axle & wire is super tight and won't let anything additional through. You have to slip a giant bearing over it. You also have to slip a spring ring and circlip over it, both who do a great job of dicing and slicing your wiring.

The axle appears non-removeable, i can't get it out from the stator after whacking on it many many times with large blunt objects.

I grinded on the axle a bit with a dremel and she is just not taking anything additional.

**** this motor right now!

Is there a way to make a sensored infineon controller sensorless...? i think at one point, there was a board you could buy..?
ES facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/125035107565566

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Bafang BBS02 on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby o00scorpion00o » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:48 pm

What kind of cables does it come with ? I used the alfa ecowire 12G, really thin insulation and really good stuff.

I never bothered reusing the circlip as you say it cuts the cable, once I have the motor on the bike I then cable tie the cables to the axle, making sure nothing rubs!

But the temperature sensor is a great way to go, so don't give up on that, regarding the halls, you don't want to loose them as you will loose a bit of speed, 5 mph or so. And you don't want to risk the problems I'm having with vibration!

You may need to rewire it all now, but it may well be for the best in the end.

I used really thin wires for the halls, and it was very high temp stuff. I can't remember, but I will try find the name of it if you need it!
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby neptronix » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:51 pm

I believe the phase are standard 16g stuff and the halls are el standard 14-30g.

Without the little clip and springy clip at the base of the axle, it seems like the motor would vibrate some, or have some side to side play, so i don't want to eliminate it.

The alfa ecowire is mind blowingly expensive on mouser and digikey.. seems to sell in 100ft. quantities for $50-$150. Will hit up my local electronics store to see if they have something else..

I'm so tired with this build. I want to sell it all off and let zombiess be the sole kicker of optibike's ass. It would reduce my stress level greatly.
ES facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/125035107565566

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Bafang BBS02 on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby auraslip » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:58 pm

need to order 14awg hobby king silicon wire.
also some teflon coated 26awg wire from.... that wire store that slips my mind right now.
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby neptronix » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:27 pm

BTW, you are right scorpion :mrgreen:
The circlip is not necessary at all! I'll just ziptie the sucker down.

Also, the springy doodad can go on the other side, to prevent wire cutting
Also, using thin shrinkwrap rather than the super fat stuff that comes with these motors allowed me to stuff in everything :)

Saaavvveee...
ES facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/125035107565566

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Bafang BBS02 on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby neptronix » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:18 am

HELL Yeah!!!! i took the springy clip and circlip off, rounded out the sharp edges on the axle, jammed in wires for the temp sensor AND a fan array.

Now i just need some fans that can tolerate 100C temps :lol:
ES facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/125035107565566

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Bafang BBS02 on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby auraslip » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:28 am

Out of curiosity, can you upload some pictures of where the axle hole is? I'm curious how big the opening is compared to other hub motors. If it's large, this would be a huge advantage.
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby neptronix » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:44 am

Sure, i will later on.
ES facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/125035107565566

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Bafang BBS02 on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby o00scorpion00o » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:52 am

Way to go Nep! :mrgreen:

I tried silicon wire before and it was a bitch to get through, mainly because silicone wire had much thicker insulation than the alpha ecowire!
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby toolman2 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:47 am

neptronix wrote:HELL Yeah!!!! i took the springy clip and circlip off, rounded out the sharp edges on the axle, jammed in wires for the temp sensor AND a fan array.

Now i just need some fans that can tolerate 100C temps :lol:


dont worry man, we just used std cheap arsed fans, and thave been fine, 4 of * 50mm*10mm.
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby zombiess » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:43 am

I'm glad to see you continuing this build Neptronix. It can get frustrating at times, we've all been there after breaking stuff, trying to fix it but managing instead to break it even worse. Sometimes you just need to step back for a while and take a break. Come back to it fresh another day or even week or how ever long. Feels so good when you finally get something right. My first hall sensor replacement on my 9C 2806 took 3 or 4 times of me opening up the motor because each time I did something wrong. I also upgraded the phase wires to 12 gauge at the same time which was not as easy as many on here said it would be. Stripped the insulation off an then used heat shrink and lube and about 2 hours of fighting to finally get those wires through that damn hole. Probably took another 2 hours to clean up all the sealant that was around and in the hole from the factory preventing me from removing the factory wires.

I think I'm going to put this 9c 2806 in my wifes bike. Need to do some testing but if her and I come to the climb like I'm hoping to her bike is going to have an easy time since she weighs under 100lbs.
Greyborg Warp Frame with Greyborg Cromotor aka "Monster Bike", 24 FET IRFB4115 EB324 Top Speed 42MPH (75V)
Greyborg Hub Motor, ZombieSS 24FET/36FET IRFB4115, Customized full suspension kids MTB. Top Speed 61 MPH (125V)
9C 8x8, 24S2P LiPo, Lyen 12 FET, Diamondback Recoil Comp. Top Speed 42 MPH (100V)
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby neptronix » Mon Apr 23, 2012 3:37 pm

Thanks zombiess, it's been super frustrating but now i think the difficult part is soon to end. Stepping back and taking a breather certainly helped.

Your 9C idea with such a light rider might work.


The Pirelli 16 x 2.75" tire is here and OMG it's freaking huge. Not as heavy as i thought. It looks like it is double the tallness of the 2.3" BMX tire too. My boss is kicking my ass today, so i don't have time to set it up yet, grrrr!! more later.

Before installing the fans/doing venting, i will hook up the tire and do a test up the 1/3rd scale pike's peak road and see how the temps are.
ES facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/125035107565566

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Bafang BBS02 on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby chroot » Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:11 pm

Bummer, I am sure you will get it done no time later on and hopefully this time will be very reliable motor last long for you. :lol:

My 9c is pretty solid reliable since 2 years even I abused my 9C 9x7 motor zillion times everyday commuter. 8)
Once you get a hand of CroMotor and I am betting this CroMotor will be very reliable long time except 50-50 chance blow up the sensor hall. I am thinking get a 18 Fets dual sensor/sensorless from Cell_Man so in case if I blow up the sensor hall then I can just switch to sensorless as backup during the commuter or wherever.
Thank you Justin Lemire-Elmore - You are a HERO!

Tidalforce, Yuba Mundo V4 Cargo bike, Juiced Riders ODK V1 Cargo bike
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby neptronix » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:58 pm

Well, zombiess has not blown his cromotor yet, so i think you'll be safe :lol:

As promised..

Mr. auraslip, here are the pics of the axle.. note.. the big bearing squeezes the wires pretty damn tight.. so what you're seeing is fairly maxed out..

Image

Image

And the Pirelli ml75 16x2.75" ..

Image

Image

This tire is boss as hell and fits the 20" pie perfectly!!!!
Now it is about 21" instead of 20"..
I have 4.25in of pedal clearance now :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

It is so heavy and thick that i feel like i could ride over glass all day and never worry. I'm sure it will add some nasty rotational intertia... but it's helped the geometry problem out a hell of a lot.

I think i can go to a 24" wheel in front with a particularly fat tire on it.. like a cruiser 3.0" tire or something.

When my boss stops kicking my ass so hard, i will investigate.. put the motor back together.. do some test runs etc.
ES facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/125035107565566

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Bafang BBS02 on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby auraslip » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:22 pm

Mr. Neptronix - THANK you. I assumed you grinded that axle down to help fit more wires?

In other news - I'm building my H series into a 24" rim.


$20 for the rim. http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=60742

$35 for custom cut spokes from ebike.ca (this is an incredible deal!) Just tell them the ERD of rim and the appropriate measurement of the hub.

Get a new disc hub for $50, and slap on a 2.5" cyclops for $20 and you should be pretty good. Handling will probably still be a lil' wonky since IIRC that setup is 25" and only lowers the front by an 1". Although it probably helps that you aren't running a suspension fork. If the frame is setup for a 100mm travel fork and you're using a solid fork made for 80mm bikes it'll help with handling issues. Hrm. I wonder if you could use an even shorter fork to get the handling right. Maybe a fork made for a 24" bike frame?

Your bike is starting to look pretty solid! Pretty much all it needs is a wooden battery box and then it'd be something I'd build ;)
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby neptronix » Mon Apr 23, 2012 8:57 pm

I ground it down indeed. About half a millimeter to just barely squeeze the extra temp sensor and fan power wires through. May be able to fit 13g or 14g phase through it, if i take the temp sensor and fan wires out. Dunno.
It's too thin to grind on much more. I've seen the broken axles on here... :P

H series in a 24" rim should be pretty good. I've heard of 22" rims though. Finding tires is probably a pain though. Nice middle ground however that could be doable with a solid fork or very short sus. fork on a bike designed for 26".

That's a damn good deal on a 24" rim.. hmm :)

The local used bike store should have something i can line up for a test fit. They've wanted to see this bike for a while anyway ( got a few of them hooked on the idea of an eBike by letting them ride the MAC build on ~2500w.. i love spreading this ebike disease ;) )
ES facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/125035107565566

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Bafang BBS02 on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby auraslip » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:41 pm

I actually have a set of 19" moped rims I got off ebay. would be around 22" or 23" - too much money and work right now though.
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Re: "peak power" - Trek 4300 20" Magic Pie build.

Postby neptronix » Tue Apr 24, 2012 12:57 pm

Now i need high temperature capable zip ties to put this motor back together.

All local vendors have zip ties that melt around 85C.
Nobody knows any vendors other than a company a state over who can custom make me a minimum quantity of 1000 for around $500.

...and this is what sucks about handing all of our manufacturing over to China. A Chinese person could probably buy these at the supermarket. We have to order them over the internet.

Delayed again i guess.
ES facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/125035107565566

The all-arounder: 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Bafang BBS02 on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The wheelie machine: 20" Rear Magic Pie II on a Trek 4300 MTB
The Bus: ??? on a 'da bomb' cargo bike frame

Pro-tips for noobs: Charge RC Lipos to 4.15v, stop discharging at 3.5-3.6v | Use torque plates/arms! | Rear mounted hubs are always best
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