Oatnet's current Tidalforce X5tracycle protoype

This is my first version of the prototypes with the Kelly Controller - I like the aesthetics, so I thought I would share. Can YOU spot the Kelly in this Cycle?


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If you were looking closely, you would have seen it here:


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This is the best ebike I can build so far - I think I am getting closer to a final product. Everything on my bikes is quality, from the NEW Tidalforce frame, to the 8" front disk, Hookworm tires with DUAL panaflats up front, Ergon Grips, and ThudBuster/Cloud nine combo. The Kelly seems like a solid component so far and may be the last piece in the puzzle. x5 fitment on the xtracyle is very difficult due to lack of clearance, but I have developed a few tricks for doing it, and the compression from the xtracycle on the axle makes the nuts almost unneccesary - but I think I'll leave them on anyhow.

In brief testing I've had this bike up to 42.7mph, and the long wheelbase of the xtracycle really smooths out the speed. The xtracycle ( http://www.xtracycle.com ) also makes it a great hauler too, designed to carry a human or a weeks worth of groceries. The appearance is very stealth; the motor and batteries are hidden by the xtracycle's freeloaders, I have kept the wiring clean, and while the controller is obvious to us it looks like an art-deco touch to the uninitiated.

-JD

Very nice! I love stealth.

What voltage are you running?

What are you using for torque arms?

Very nice job Oatnet!! This is very close to the project I'm starting in a very short time. You've given my a nice idea for the controller mounting and I like the fact that it acts as your fender as well.

Did you go with a rear disc? It didn't seem possible from the extracycle website. I'm guessing you went with the old standard rears?

How did you mount the batteries? I still haven't decided on that part yet.

Thanks for the post!

kyakdiver

Nice. Stealthy.

fechter said:

Very nice! I love stealth.
What voltage are you running?
What are you using for torque arms?

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Thanks Fechter!
I am running 24-cell LiFe for 72v, the times I looked at the CA when I was pushing it hard, it was drawing 4500-4800 watts. The Kelly controller has handled the cells at 88.8v peak charge, and pulled a max of 92amps of current from them. Ya know, I was messing with Justin's motor simulator the other day, and I drew the conclusion that the x5's want to draw about 90 amps - above 90 amps, the power curve remains unchanged, and below 90amps, the left side of the power curve gets truncated. It was interesting to see that given unlimited amps the motor drew a peak of 92 amps in the real world. Has it been your finding that 92 amps is all an x5 will ever want?

I have yet to use torque arms on any of my RWD prototypes, and I haven't seen any damage to dropouts. Of course, the Tidalforce frames I have were purpose-built as electric bikes, so they are very thick and robust with a nice rear triangle brace. There is a slot in the rear triangle brace for a torque arm and I'll probably add one in production. I haven't worked a solution for the xtracycle, but like I said the clamping is really strong. The x5 with cluster is 2mm-3mm too wide for the xtracycle; on a regular bike, you could spread the triangles a little and be done with it, but on the xtracycle there is an additional brace welded behind the wheel, making spreading the frame very difficult, but once in place it holds that wheel TIGHT.

kyakdiver said:

and I like the fact that it acts as your fender as well.
Did you go with a rear disc? It didn't seem possible from the extracycle website. I'm guessing you went with the old standard rears?
How did you mount the batteries? I still haven't decided on that part yet.

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Thanks kyakdiver!
The fender helps, make sure you brace the rear extension very well so that it can't grab the tire, get sucked in, and jam against the wheel; it took me 10 or so tries before I started making these OK. The location provides good airflow and the mounting acts as an additional cooling surface.

I am mostly a front brake kinda guy so I am just using the OEM Tidalforce V brakes on the rear. The Kelly controller will provide regen to supplement the v brake, but I am still playing with the controller config and haven't implemented that yet. Xtracycles do support rear disk brakes, but an x5 with 7-spd cluster is a little too large to fit as-is. I imagine that one could fit a single-speed cluster and a disk brake, but I don't feel the need for it - that 8" front disk does a nice job.

I should mention I am effectively using this like a single-speed cluster - I have been ditching the gearshift for the rear derailliuer to make room for the throttle, leaving it adjusted to the smallest ring, so I have the choice of 3 gears from the front derailliuer. I pretty much leave it in 21st gear anyhow.

For the batteries, build a flat, long pack, and use the inner pockets on the freeloaders. This adds to the stealth, leaves the big pockets open for cargo. Take steps to protect the wheel-side of the cells from any shrapnel that might spin up, and consider a method to allow you to cable-lock this to your bike!

Drunkskunk said:

Nice. Stealthy.

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Thanks Drunkskunk!

-JD

Oatnet,

What kinda crazy seat post is that? Does it work well? Linky to it?

I could see a nice piece of light black cordura attached to the front of the extracycle and it would be the ultimate in stealth! Would still breath and keep the controller out of the weather and hide it to boot. I live in the Northwest so riding is the rain is common for my commute.

Other than that.... I wouldn't change a thing on my conversion that you haven't done here. My plan is to run disc front and standard rear brakes also.

kyakdiver

oatnet said:

Has it been your finding that 92 amps is all an x5 will ever want?

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Well, I don't have much first hand experience with these motors, but given the motor's resistance and the voltage, it would be hard to make it draw more than that without completely stalling it. As you can see from the simulator, you don't gain much by going higher anyway and the efficiency would drop like a rock. I suspect the stator is close to saturation around there.

AWESOME! I thought about making an Xtracycle electric bike but I realized I wouldn't be able to get it into the elevator in my apartment. I know it's still early but I'll be interested to find out how much range you get out of this bike.

kyakdiver said:

What kinda crazy seat post is that? Does it work well? Linky to it?

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That is a ThudBuster - by far the most effective seat supensions system I have tried, and I swear by. Combine it with a Cloud 9 seat and any bike is as comfortable as a laz-y-boy recliner.

http://thudbuster.com/

kyakdiver said:

I could see a nice piece of light black cordura attached to the front of the extracycle

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I considered that, but I decided that the only people who might identify it as an ebike component would probably already know it is an ebike - if they aren't already too busy gawking at the xtracycle! I like the way it looks out there, sorta art-deco.

-JD

Dangit after seeing your pics I went and blew some cash on a old used thudbuster.

vanilla ice said:

Dangit after seeing your pics I went and blew some cash on a old used thudbuster.

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Great! LMK what you think when you get it. They also sell a kit that replaces the pivots etc to refurbish it like new... Also can be had from Universalcycles.com for $122.

-JD

Alright...................... Just ordered my Xtracycle kit for my Specialized Sirrus pro disc..... Will be running 700 wheels...

Oatnet....... You just cost me money but... I think I'm going to love this setup with my BMC Geared hub..

Thanks for all the ideas.

kyakdiver

kyakdiver said:

Oatnet....... You just cost me money but... I think I'm going to love this setup with my BMC Geared hub.. Thanks for all the ideas.

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I'm looking forward to your project, and pics!

I have a Puma that Mark sent me but I never laced up, I'll be interested to see how it does in an xtra... But no matter what motor you put in, the xtra softens any hardtail, does wonders for the battery-placement issue, and makes an ebike a viable passenger/cargo hauler.

I was concerned that the length would be an issue, but I haven't noticed problems maneuvering in tight quarters. I was concerned that the added weight would be an issue, but I did one of my beach rides unpowered and had no problems pedalling.

The long chain does slap more. My frames use taller, thicker tubing than most bikes, so the xtracycle lifts the rear a bit more than a regular wheel would, changing the rake angle - still trying to work around this, most bikes should not have this issue.

-JD

Nice nice ride! very stylish, wanted to do an xtracycle for a few years but could not get them so easy over here in the UK, makes for a great platform I added this one in 4 years ago on my website, it was a good platform and used some stonking big batteries!!

Puma would loose you 10lb or so in weight and nice freewheeling also, oh and yes the Thudbuster is the best money you can spend on a seatpost period, I have had one for 2 years or so and put a lot of miles on it, worth getting the lizard skin protector for it if you ride in the wet and your bike throws mud at it. turns a hard tail in to a rear suss..well nearly

Thanks for the pictures of your bike.

Heres a blast from the past!!



Click http://tinyurl.com/6llqca for details



Cheers

Knoxie

Beagle123 said:

Is there rear supension under the bags? It seems like you'd need it at 40+mph.

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The xtracycle kit only works on hardtails. As a bonus, when you push the rear wheel back, the rider's weight is between the wheels, instead of over the rear wheel, so the front suspension actually is effective at softening the ride. I didn't notice any suspension issues at 40+, but I chose a smooth road to test those speeds on.

Beagle123 said:

Why did you extend the back end to make it longer?

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Umm... I did not extend the back end, I installed a standard, off-the-shelf xtracycle kit... The xtracycle website lists dozens of reasons ( http://www.xtracycle.com ) but I'll include some of my favorites:


Any Bike (350lb load carrying capability)
========
Dedicated seat and footrests for a ---> passenger <---
Ability to carry 6+ bags of groceries
Ability to carry a whole lot more with optional wide-loaders and side-loaders.

Ebike
=====
Battery/Rider weight is in center of bike, instead of over rear wheel, reducing the "wheelie" tendancy of high power bikes.
Stealthy battery placement in inner pockets of freeloaders.
Stealthy placement of controller/wiring on FreeRadicals
Stealthy concealment of rear hub motor by freeloaders.
Longer frame is more stable at higher speeds.

IMHO, it takes the ebike to a level beyond recreation, the hauling/passenger capability making it viable transportation. However, I have to admit that the initial driver for trying it was to stop doing powered wheelies on every bump, everything else is gravy.

Beagle123 said:

If you're going 40+mph I'd imagine that you can't really use the pedals? Maybe if you replaced the front sprocket with a huge sprocket that would take you up to 35mph or so, then you could use the pedals too. Then you could just have a 7 speed.

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Why would anyone want to pedal at 40+ mph? At that speed on an ebike one already has a lot to pay attention to, and it would pull me out of a tuck, create drag, and slow me down. While I did some speed tests, I don't normally run at 40+mph. While sampling that speed is a rush, and may be useful occasionally, it is way way way too dangerous for my daily commute (a spill at those speeds would sand me smooth).

I don't have much use for the fiddly little range changes of the rear derailliur, I never ever ever use it on ebike or a regular bike. I removed the twist-shift for it, and set it the highest gear, so I now have a 3-speed (7/14/21) via the front deralliur, but 99.999999% of the time it is in 21st gear on the biggest sprocket - unpowered, I have no problem pedalling from a stop to maintaining 20mph in top gear.

Beagle123 said:

I'm guessing that you only use the pedals on hills?

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nope, my use of pedals has little to do with the terrain. I try to avoid pedalling while commuting to keep fresh and this is the type of bike I would use for commuting. I pedal a lot when I exercise, but like to use Tidalforce's Cruise Control for that so I use a different bike.

Beagle123 said:

How are you charging it? Please let us know your charging method.

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The pack that is currently on the bike uses Flintstone chargers.

FWIW, I posted a bunch of pics on building packs to fit on the xtracycle:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=4161

-JD

Really nice bike Oatnet. Well conceived and executed.

I'm conceiving/working on a similar rig.
Here's some (probably naive) newbie questions :
What are/source of: DUAL panaflats up front,
ditto Ergon Grips?

Which Kelly controller are you using for the 36V 12Ah LiFePOs? Why did you pick that particular model? How's it stack up with other makes?

Re: "the two 36v packs assembled and ready to give my xtra 88.8v "
Do two 36V packs in series (I presume) charge that high? wow. Would other controllers than your Kelly be able to handle that?

Re: the "long (foolish) charging harness" foolish? Are you thinking there's a shorter way to construct it?
Is the same harness used for charge/power?

Re: "the times I looked at the CA when I was pushing it hard, it was drawing 4500-4800 amps. The Kelly controller has handled the cells at 88.8v peak charge, and pulled a max of 92amps of current from them"
Sorry, I'm confused about the amp draw. 4800? 92?
Thanks.

I think minor typo.. 4500 " watts " .. not amps ! ( that would be killacycle stuff )

Thanks!

Panaracer "soft" kevlar belt, which I learned from xyster.
http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=11244&category=
Ergon Grips (extreme wrist savers):
http://www.universalcycles.com/search.php?SearchFor=ergon

Yes, (24) 3.65v chinese LIfePo4 cells on single-cell 3.75v chargers seem to peak out at 88.8v hot off the charger. a123 and others may vary. 88.8v is a problem on many controllers unless you mod them - I think the ShenZhen can handle it - I would know if I could find my #@)(*%)*$%$# mini-xlr connectors!

I am using the 100amp (60a cont) model of the kelly, I chose it because it was the lowest amp they offered at the time. It seems pretty durable, I have killed many an xlyte but this has survived.

Charging solution - yes, put the long wire on the charger not the battery.

Gaston nailed the last bit - 4800w, 92a, and you can calculate what the voltage was. The batteries did not like it, the hub motor did not like it, but I was getting bugs in my teeth - from the grin.

-JD

EVnow! said:

Really nice bike Oatnet. Well conceived and executed.
I'm conceiving/working on a similar rig.
Here's some (probably naive) newbie questions :
What are/source of: DUAL panaflats up front,
ditto Ergon Grips?

Which Kelly controller are you using for the 36V 12Ah LiFePOs? Why did you pick that particular model? How's it stack up with other makes?

Re: "the two 36v packs assembled and ready to give my xtra 88.8v "
Do two 36V packs in series (I presume) charge that high? wow. Would other controllers than your Kelly be able to handle that?

Re: the "long (foolish) charging harness" foolish? Are you thinking there's a shorter way to construct it?
Is the same harness used for charge/power?

Re: "the times I looked at the CA when I was pushing it hard, it was drawing 4500-4800 amps. The Kelly controller has handled the cells at 88.8v peak charge, and pulled a max of 92amps of current from them"
Sorry, I'm confused about the amp draw. 4800? 92?
Thanks.

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aaah.. so nice, is it still working? I want a cromotor on it on a small bike like this one:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111267951602?var=410274825925&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

How can you have the seat so wrong? Don't you just slide down when you are on it?

Allex said:

How can you have the seat so wrong? Don't you just slide down when you are on it?

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The suspension seatpost that he uses actually tilts down a bit on compression. I bet when he gets on there, it's closer to level.

Thanks cwah, I still have it but it is buried behind a bunch of newer builds. When I retire I'll dig it out to be my regular
beach transport, hauling chairs and umbrellas etc. I am skeptical that the xtracycle kit will fit on the bike - IIRC it is designed for 26" frames; if it did fit it would defeat the point of folder and being lightweight.

Allex, I am not sure what you mean by "so wrong" or how I would "slide down" - I used to ride this no-handed sometimes. It is a very short wheelbase frame, so I do have the seat clamp positioned as far forward as possible on the seats rails, so I can get as far from the handlebars as possible. The geometry of the thudbuster probably accentuates the unusual appearance, as it adds so,e more rearward clearance.

Cal3thousand, you are probably right, although the thudbuster moves rearward as much as down, and it's movement stops well short of level.

-JD

cwah said:

aaah.. so nice, is it still working? I want a cromotor on it on a small bike like this one:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111267951602?var=410274825925&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

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You should look into the Juiced Riders ODK if you want a solid, compact cargo-hauling ebike.