Giant DH Team, Cromotor, 18fet Lyen, 111v Lipo

[binlagin]

Hi Guys,

I have been a long time lurker and seldom poster but I have finally collected the majority of the parts for my first e-bike build. I am super excited to get this rolling!

I created this post to document my build progress. I will share any of the challenges and successes I encounter and over come. I hope someone down the line can use the information in this post in their own build! I apologize for the poor quality photos, I will try and find a better camera in the future.

Lets get to it!

PARTS

Bike: 2004 Giant Downhill Team

Status: Received

Purchased this bike used off Kijiji for aprox 500$ CAD. It is very clean and in good shape. The only part that needs repairing is the bottom bracket.

Motor: Cromotor laced with DX-32 Alexrims by JRH

Status: Received

Purchased this motor from a member on the forums who had it shipped to our own JRH for lacing. After it is all said and done this cost me approx $1100.00 CAD.

Controller: Lyen 18 FET 4115 MOSFET 84-132V Real Highway Speed Controller
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=18605#p271188
Status: Received

Batteries: 30s Turnigy Lipo @ 10AH ( 10 batteries total). 111v Nominal charge.


Status: Received

Purchased these from HobbyKing.com. Because I live in Canada, I had to split my purchase up into two shipments. This hurt the wallet quite a bit. Aprox $1100 CAD

Dropouts: Kiwi custom built no cut dropouts
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=33767#p490709
Status: Received

Tires: Maxxis Hookworms

Status: Received

Connectors: 6mm bullet connectors x 100
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=20353
Status: Received

Wiring: 10 AWG Silicone Wire Red & Black
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=9672
Status: Received

Drive train: Schlumpf high-speed-drive

http://www.schlumpf.ch/hp/hsd/hsd_engl.htm

I must find out if this compatible work with my bike.
Status: Not Ordered Yet

DESIGN

Simple foam core and zip-tie mock-up of how I plan on mounting my batteries and controller to the bike. I plan on running 10, 6S Turnigy 20c 5AH batteries in a 111v 10AH configuration.



I plan on running a single speed in the rear with a Schlumpf front de-railer which contains an internal gear system for low and high speed.

Please feel free to leave any questions or comments... I'd love to hear from you!

Thanks,
Binlagin

[binlagin]

RESERVED FOR CURRENT BUILD PROGRESS.

[stevetooke]

Brilliant !
This is almost exactly what I have planned for mine.
So far I have the bike (2002 team) and an order with Kiwi for the dropout adapters so I'll be watching your thread with interest!
Good luck!

[mr.electric]

What will the battery holder be made of?

[neptronix]

Wow, finally a Dual sus bike that has decent triangle space!!

Very nice.. will be watching

[waynebergman]

Nice looking plan Binlagin!

I have not seen that Schlumpf front de-railer which contains an internal gear system for low and high speed before. Does this mean there is two speeds only or two ranges of high and low speeds? I am guessing its going to be a two speed in total with the single ring on the rear. Not sure how your bike will perform up hills compared to mine as my frame is the same but I have gone with different volt to amp ratio. I am running a 48 volt 20 ah with I believe a 3c rating and my controller is a 35 amp. It is a lithum manganeze pack from samsung that I am running. I have only been out for 4 rides in total as I just completed the bike but I am really liking having the 7 speeds of pedal ratios. When climbing (and I am running a 24" rear wheel and glad its there) I just shift down to keep my pedal speed turning at a nice speed and I mounted my shifter on the left side of the bars so my shifting is not getting in the way of my twist grip throttle. This pedal assist is really cool when riding on any terrain that starts to slow the bike down. Just a bit of pedaling helps a lot. I feel that the few Watts I am putting out just helps bring the motor back into its happy zone being able to spin a bit faster on the climbs, its a great feeling to see the bike respond in this way. The reason I mention this is I would not be able to help my motor out like I like with only two gears to choose from. I have often thought even 2 gears would be just fine if the motor could drive those two gears but not two gears for pedal assist in my opinion .

You are going to love that bike once its up and running.

[oatnet]

Well thought out Ben - enjoy the CroMotor!

-JD

[dnmun]

in keyne's fiberglas enclosure he was able to position the cells axially so he ended up with a narrow enclosure between the knees.

does this bike also have the double crown fork? if single, maybe reorient all the individual cells axially inside the frame, above the top tube and alongside the head tube also with those far enuff forward they could be wider, and build a new mold for all of them to fit inside like he did. in fact with all the guys hacking up these DH teams maybe someone could knock out a few enclosures from the same mold, or set up a mold that works for these lipo packs on the specific sized frame. but that may get too too detailed.

[neptronix]

I wonder if a falconEV bag would fit in that thing. That bag can take up to 12 6S/5S 5AH lipos on some frames, standing up on their butts rather than on their sides. Just an idea.

I'm thinking you'll have a pretty hard time pedaling with them mounted like that.

[fractal]

Nice, will be watching!!!!

[izeman]

nice. subscribed. but PLEASE upgrade your camera. those pictures show NO details and lead to eye cancer

[rjoe]

you have 11 modules in a tin, but 10 in your battery box?

[dogman]

What's the point of getting the batteries inside the frame,when it's going to end up that wide anyway?

Why not just build a set of saddlebag style boxes? Much easier to pedal around, or just press knees into on corners.

Fancy pedal drive? why? pedaling a cromotor?

[binlagin]

What will the battery holder be made of?

Right now I've completed the first level of my case. This was built with a Jigsaw, Drill, Cheap angle grinder and Pop rivets.

It's built out out:

Alumnium stock from Home Depot
Pop Rivets
Some kind of plastic from Home Depot for Windows

6 of 10 batteries in the case on the bike. I want to use some sort of clamp like this: http://www.clampco.com/products/latches.asp to mount it to the frame.




My main goals for this battery case is to have:

Easy access to batteries
Removable as a single unit
Impact protection to batteries
Easy to build

I plan on wrapping my triangle with some sort of removable covering seen on some of the other builds on this site. The case should be strong enough to withstand a minor to medium sized crash... well that's the plan anyways.

What's the point of getting the batteries inside the frame,when it's going to end up that wide anyway?

To be honest... the frame triangle isn't that big. To fit the batteries in the other direction it introduces a couple of problems.

1) Not possible to fit 10 batteries in a 2 wide configuration. Somewhere you have to go 3 batteries wide.. which is the same length the batteries positioned the way I have it. So it's not really any different
2) Wiring and battery access becomes a challenge

One benefit though doing it the way you where suggesting is... better balance.

Fancy pedal drive? why? pedaling a cromotor?

You raise a very valid point. I'm mostly concerned with the initial 20-30km/h of accelerating and off-roading. Do you think I can get away with a single speed setup? I would like to save some $$$!

Thanks for all the feedback guys! Please keep the suggestions on how to improve my build coming

[binlagin]

you have 11 modules in a tin, but 10 in your battery box?

Good eye! I bought 12 actually I've been reading about the QC in China and it isn't that good. If I had only ordered 10... and received a dud, the amount of shipping it would have cost me to replace it would have cost more then buying an extra battery.

Out of the 12 I purchased
- 10 where perfectly balanced at 3.83-85 on all cells
- 1 battery had all cells at 3.74 (so i think this one is ok.. just need to charge it and monitor it)
- 1 battery had all cells at 3.85 and 1 cell at 3.61... I need to figure out if this one is a dud or not

So I don't know if I won at the Lipo roulette?

[Andje]

at 111 volt... with lipo... no you don't need to worry about the acceleration in any band; just consider a human can never ouput even 500w through the pedals. If you are dumping several thousand watts, you are at best adding 10-15%... so drop in the bucket, much easier to squeeze the throttle slightly harder since you will almost certainly have enough torque to just wheely flip the bike from a standstill, and indeed probably up TO the 20-30 range you are talking about. You can definitely deal with a single speed in the rear, lots of people run a triple ring up front with a mid derailer to keep some speeds, but I NEVER pedal my 100v bike. It's really a motorcycle at these power levels you are entering; you will see.
Oh, and all those batteries are totally fine. The rule is 4.2V max, and 3.5V min. There is GOOD argument to keep you batteries between 4.15v and 3.6 to prolongue their lifespan; essentially the less taxing you can be in terms of depth of discharge and full charge the better. A dead battery from hobbyking would have to be much lower then that to be a "dud". Just make sure you balance charge it to full; that is the most important thing, keeping the individual cells in balance. It's not "great" that it came that way, and it could indicate a weak cell, but you may see no noticeable effect day to day. I would mark the pack with something and watch it, but your 10ah at 30c would be 300amps to tax the battery; you will not be close to that, so the battery will essentially always be baby'd in terms of current demand. If you can try and use 8 ah of your 10 availiable by charging to 95% and keeping 15% in the pack you will get the most cycles out of your battery.
Putting it in perspective; I have drained single cells and overcharged cells. I have done everything wrong with my 12 25c bricks. They still hold 90% charge and are not puffed. I do not reccomend this strategy; only to point out that it is at THAT point, when things co wrong, that you learn you have won lipo roulette or not. And losing can be firey. A lot of people neglect to put a smoke detector above their charger; please get one. Watch your charge cycles.

[binlagin]

Andje thanks for the words of wisdom! This is exactly why I love this forum.

[izeman]

.. You can definitely deal with a single speed in the rear, lots of people run a triple ring up front with a mid derailer to keep some speeds, but I NEVER pedal my 100v bike ...

i can confirm that. even though i have only a 12s setup with 1500w max i almost NEVER use the 9 gears at the hub. i just switch between the front middle gear (for launching) and then after some meters switch to the big one (for cycling), the rear gear's always set to the smallest one.

[kfong]

Nice setup, I had the same issues about battery placement. It wasn't until I went to smaller capacity lipo's did I find a workable solution. I wanted to be able to pedal my bike, so having anything that got in the way was not an option. I was able to fit a 12s 14ahr pack in my frame. Working on the enclosure, but have posted how I was able to fit it all. The smaller capacity packs have a better form factor for space optimization. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12654&start=150

[veloman]

The point is definitely valid that the OP has no need to pedal this thing, at all.

However, I will strongly challenge anyone claiming a human can't output more than 500watts during acceleration. Do the math on what it takes to go 0-30mph in under 6 seconds on pedal power alone :D
(1800watts) (18lb road bike)

[veloman]

.. You can definitely deal with a single speed in the rear, lots of people run a triple ring up front with a mid derailer to keep some speeds, but I NEVER pedal my 100v bike ...

i can confirm that. even though i have only a 12s setup with 1500w max i almost NEVER use the 9 gears at the hub. i just switch between the front middle gear (for launching) and then after some meters switch to the big one (for cycling), the rear gear's always set to the smallest one.

That's exactly what I do on my ebike.

I like the middle of the cassette if I only want to go 10mph without using the motor, and have to start on a steep hill. If not using the motor, its a LOT harder to get my ebike rolling.

[Andje]

However, I will strongly challenge anyone claiming a human can't output more than 500watts during acceleration. Do the math on what it takes to go 0-30mph in under 6 seconds on pedal power alone
(1800watts) (18lb road bike)

hmmm I thought I was right, but upon searching wikipedia

Amateur bicycle racers can typically produce 3 watts/kg for more than an hour (e.g., around 210 watts for a 70 kg rider), with top amateurs producing 5 W/kg and elite athletes achieving 6 W/kg for similar lengths of time. Elite track sprinters are able to attain an instantaneous maximum output of around 2,000 watts, or in excess of 25 W/kg; elite road cyclists may produce 1,600 to 1,700 watts as an instantaneous maximum in their burst to the finish line at the end of a five-hour long road race. Even at moderate speeds, most power is spent in overcoming the aerodynamic drag force, which increases with the square of speed.[4] Thus, the power required to overcome drag increases with the cube of the speed.

So I was wrong! You learn something every day! It's us "amateur" people that get under 5w/kg that don't generally make more then 500w.

[crusoe]

How many volts are you running at kfong?

[Doctorbass]

I see that the DG comp seem to gain in popularity

My experience with lipo and tmy giant is that the best removable way to put 15 packs of 6s 5000mAh is this way:

( that's 1.75kWh of energy)... right in the middle of the frame!

What i can say abouut this battery lcation: THIS REALLY IMPROOVE THE HANDLING !!!!

I can do the same manouvers than any DH bike can do. the feeling of the center the mass is similar to a motocross.

[hillzofvalp]

Holy crap that's a lot of power? Doc, your bike looks like a pod racer from star wars