A-Lines Abound: Electric drive implosion

[neptronix]

145mm sinz cranks.



That's how i get clearance on my hardtail, which came with a rather low BB to start with.

Also, longer rear shock can get you some rear lift up. That's a downhill bike, so some rear lift could help it. Just an idea.

[MattyCiii]

I think you should also consider the tire thickness. Some tires are low profile (ex. road racing) and others are high profile (ex. downhilling, freeriding). With thicker tires you could easily gain an inch on the radius.

Thanks Doc. My new 21" rim is only 1.6" wide. A narrower rim should force a tire to be somewhat taller compared to mounting on a wider rim. All within reason of course. I have a 3" by 21" moped road tire on the way, hopefully the combination will work! It's hard to find 21" motorcycle/scooter/moped tires much narrower, and I can't go much wider than 3" wide without bicycle frame clearance issues...

ps nice dropout design im sure someone will buy those "paperweights" off you to help offset your initial investment. cant hurt to post an ad in the for sale section. good luck! looking forward to see how the build progresses.

Will do! Of course I have a very small audience to market to - 2009 A-Line owners - but never say die, right? Hopefully this build will come together nicely - and soon - giving me something to show potential customers, mainly a nice component of A-Line owners wanting to go RC.

145mm sinz cranks.

Thanks Nep! Unfortunately I backed myself into a corner on this build... I want to use a Schlumpf Speed Drive on this beast so I'm limited to the smallest Schlumpf (155mm) cranks. But the rear shock is still definitely an option. I can go up an inch and still use a bicycle shock, or if I need longer punt and go with a [url]dirt bike shock[/url], which allows me flexibility in mounting the reservoir to boot.

Driving around yesterday I hit a pothole that literally made my F150 jump laterally. I can't wait to try this bike on the same pothole at speed and see how it handles... It will be jarring certainly, but on the bike at least it won't shake my fillings loose...

[recumpence]

Guess what I have sitting here for you?

Matt

[MattyCiii]

Guess what I have sitting here for you?

Matt

THANKS Matt!!!
As soon as it's mounted I'll be posting pix for sure!

[MattyCiii]

One step closer to getting this project on the road:
I've completed my first Schlumpf/ATS drive installation. I'll hopefully get some good robust testing in on my "daily driver" Dahon folding bike, enough to decide whether to install a Speed Drive (1:1.6 overdrive) on the A-Line, or should I install a High Speed Drive (1:2.5 overdrive).

Considering how much weight and rotational inertia this bike will have, I plan to gear it way down. Actually I'd be smart to price some smaller chainrings and see what's available in case my 42t front/21t rear is not low enough. A High Speed Drive will allow me to pedal much more with the electric drive in parallel I think, but the Speed Drive has the advantage of - well, I already own one.

[MattyCiii]

OK,
Parts for the new wheels are starting to arrive. Here's the best "test fit" I can do without - you know, rims or spokes. This will be a tight fit both front and back! I have exactly 100mm clearance up front - and 100mm of travel.

In the rear, the A-Line chain stays narrow near the pivot (to clear feet/pedaling), and the tires have about 5mm each side clearance.

I'm going to remove that rear rack - I have a better option in the works. And the seat will have to come waaaaay down.

[MattyCiii]

Looks like, according to the Lefty manual, I need to have 10mm of space between a fully compressed strut and the steerer tube. The '29er version of the Lefty has 10mm spacers that prevent bottoming. Looks like I might need one of those spacers...

[adam333]

Thanks Nep! Unfortunately I backed myself into a corner on this build... I want to use a Schlumpf Speed Drive on this beast so I'm limited to the smallest Schlumpf (155mm) cranks. But the rear shock is still definitely an option. I can go up an inch and still use a bicycle shock, or if I need longer punt and go with a [url]dirt bike shock[/url], which allows me flexibility in mounting the reservoir to boot.

From the Schlumpf price list, an additional 40 euro will get you the following crank lengths: ( from price list pdf )

Extra charge for special crankarm
lengths: 102, 114, 127,
140, 155 straight shape, 160, 165, 170,
172.5, 175mm
(all except 155 offset)

http://www.haberstock-mobility.com/en/products/schlumpf-drive.html

[MattyCiii]

Thanks Adam!
I have the 155mm crank arms in hand so I'll stick with that for now. Good find though, I probably should have cast a wider net when looking for options.

As it stands, those big wheels should get me the ground clearance I need to <cough> get this project rolling agin.

It looks like you're thinking about a High Speed Drive for your A-Line? I'll definitley get info posted here when mine comes in, and once I have the unit in hand I can answer any questions you have.
~Matt

[adam333]

yep, I contacted Ilia, I think I am ready to go that way.

[MattyCiii]

One step closer to having a working bicycle...

I received my Schlumpf High Speed Drive yesterday and installed it today

It's a real nice piece of kit


The bottom bracket was prepared back a few months ago when I rented the install tool and set my folding bike up with an ATS Speed Drive:

[MattyCiii]

Here's the drive simply placed into the BB shell. From the looks of things my chain line is off a bit. We'll see... My hub assembly is mounted in the dropouts: NuVinci N360 and left-side mount with chainring and bash guard (not needed but helps stalthify the drive):


I have the rim, tire and tube for this wheel, and spokes on order with JRH. I guess when it's all built up it'll end up being as heavy as a hub motor setup with bike rim/tire...


That 27t chainring is nice and small. I will have the 1:1 ratio drive set to really low, since it's a heavy bike with lots of rotational inertia. But I don't want it to be geared too low. A 15t rear cog will get me 1:1.8 ratio, a 13t gets me 1:2.08


Per Ilia's video, I have the oiling port positioned at the bottom of the drive


Not a lot of chain stay clearance, maybe 10mm


Here's the rim and tire. This will be a pain in the @$$ to mount. I like the anodized green, but it's not quite a color match to the frame


Here's about what the rear wheel will look like


I hope I can get this bike together as a pedal bike by Memorial Day weekend, take it up to the mountains and ride it a bit. Electric power will come later...

[MattyCiii]

My spokes have shipped from JRH, expected delivery Monday. With any luck I'll be able to build my rear wheel Mon/Tues night and actually be able to pedal the bike around a bit.

It'll be a challenge, my first 2-cross pattern wheel (I usually only have enough spoke length for 1 cross as I prefer 406mm rims with wide hubs). Also it's a motorcycle rim and 13g a spokes. I bought the "extra large" nipples, but I still need to use washers to ensure they don't pull through. Wish me luck!

[MattyCiii]

Electric drive:

My Matt Shumaker DaVinci drive arrived recently and I've finally had the time to look into how to best integrate it into the A-Line. Forgive the crappy pictures...

First, I did not buy mounts for it. I figured my design was just enough off the beaten path that I'd want to study the problem and figure out the best path to take. Here's where I'm at. I plan to fab some custom mounts that attach the shaft collar directly to the custom dropouts/chain stays. The drive will go here:


Hard to picture without the wheel, but the drive is sitting right on top of the border between the custom dropout and the chain stay. The piece that attaches the electric motor mount to the belt pulley shaft collar (see below) is exactly the same width as the chain stay/dropouts. See how I have the motor mount part of the DaVinci flipped, giving me about 15mm of shaft collar on each side of the motor mount. My custom mounts will grab this round tube on each side.




Here's an early design of the mount. At the top it clams around the shaft collar. I'll use a pair of these. The pair clamp down on the square shape in between - on the A-Line, the square shape is the chain stay (I plan to use this same clamp on two different bikes, which is why it has so many holes). This design will change, but it's good enough for now to illustrate. Also, on the A-Line, I have pre-drilled and tapped holes on the custom dropouts I can use to precisely locate and attach the clamp-mounts to.

[MattyCiii]

I'll need to get a slightly longer shaft for the drive. See I have the sprocket adapter flipped. This is necessary for two reasons:
1) If I don't flip it, the sprocket freewheels in the direction of drive - not good. I could use a left hand freewheel, but then I'd need a left-hand threaded adapter and I'm not in a hurry to find one/have one machined.
2) With it flipped I have a nice chain line.


What I won't know is if I'm clearing the spokes. I hope to have the wheel laced up within a week and we'll know. Worst case - I don't clear the spokes... then I'll look into having a shallower sprocket adapter machined, or one that's lefty threaded.

[MattyCiii]

I'm heading to the White Mountains of New Hampshire over the Memorial Day weekend... If I can get that rear wheel built up in time I'll be riding down the east side of the Kanc from the peak just to get a feel for how much heat those Magura Gustav's can handle. I've ridden the Kanc on a cruiser motorcycle, it's a nice scenic, twisty/turny road with 7 to 9 degree downgrade, I should be able to get the bike up to at least 50MPH if I lay off the brakes and I'm not trapped behind a slow poke.

I'll catch some video on the helmet cam and post it here, should be very nice.

[MattyCiii]

Received my spokes from JRH and laced up the wheel tonight. No pix, I coat the spoke threads and nipples with automotive anti seize when I build a wheel, my fingers get messy and I don't want to mess up my camera. Tomorrow I'll clean the wheel up some more and give it proper tensioning and truing. Then comes the struggle to mount the motorcycle tire onto the wheel.

Maybe the 5th wheel I've built, went very smoothly. Smooth, but still a pain in the back, sitting on the floor all hunched over the wheel. This was my first 2-cross pattern, normally I go 1-cross due to short spokes (e.g., NuVinci hub in a 406mm rim).

[MattyCiii]

Well the bike won't be rideable this weekend I failed to get the tire on the rim (it's designed to be tubeless, which makes it nearly impossible to mount by hand). The good news is I found a motorcycle shop that mounted the tire for what I consider short money - $25. But time ran out, I'm already on the road and left the now-built wheel behind.

I had a great conversation with the shop owner. Small startup shop, young man and wife leveraged everything to start the biz. He grew up on BMX - took a real shine to the NuVinci hub. I'll be building the front wheel this weekend, and when I go drop off the front I'll bring the bike. From our first chat it sounds like it won't be too hard to get this young man onboard with the electric revolution.

[Tommy L]

Very Nice Work Here!

\\m//

Tommy L sends.....

[MattyCiii]

Thanks Tommy!

This thing is going to be a BEAST! I can still carry it around, but it is getting heavy.

I picked up my finished wheel from the motorcycle shop. I think the owner regretted quoting me $25, he had to do the install manually. I checked to be sure he'd be willing to do the front - I told him not to be shy about upping the price if he has to. I'd rather support a scrappy up and coming shop than save some short money. Well I've got the front laced and true, hopefully the tension is OK. Here's a pic:


I think that seat post will have to be shortened some.

Tolerances from here out will be in the 1/2 cm or less range... part of what makes this hobby fun. This pic is supposed to show the ~4mm I have between the Magura Gustav M brake caliper and the electric drive chainring. Too bad I focused on the rim instead:


Once I get the front tire mounted, I'll actually be able to pedal-ride this thing. And with it upright, I'll able to plan/measure specifications to mount the electric drive. With the wheel mounted it still looks like I can place the Astro 3220 DaVinci drive on the left side upper chain stay. But I'm better off doing all the measures with the bike upright, so that'll be kicked down the road a bit.

One last pic...
A close-up of just the brake side. The electric drive chainring is hiding behind that disc brake. Looks pretty stealthy now, but once I get that DaVinci drive mounted there'll be no hiding the fact that this bike is power assisted.

[Tommy L]

Wow! I'm totally jealous!

I also noticed that you've been here since 2007. How many builds? I've done 4 and will continue to keep going.
I keep fighting between EBicycle and Electric Motorcycle. The torque and the power and the range can be great on both.
Speed safety is all Motorcycle. But keeping is light and quick is also cool!
Nice wheels! I can't wait for you to report how they ride!

Peace!
Tommy L sends....\\m//

[MattyCiii]

I also noticed that you've been here since 2007. How many builds?

I guess you can say I spent far too long as an e-bike wannabe, living vicariously through this forum. I actually spent another year or two before ES at the "V is for Voltage" forums, but I don't even think I registered there... only lurked.

So what I have for builds are my "two firsts" linked in my sig... This beast, and the light, nimble, go-everywhhere folding bike. Nether move on e-power, yet, but now instead of dragging my feet saying "some day", now I build as well/quickly as I can, then order more parts Hopefully I'll have that electron tailwind here by July!

I'm constantly inspired by the people here and what they build. I like that Catrike you built - I plan a tadpole trike for myself some day but for now two simultaneous builds is too much. Thanks again for the props!

[MattyCiii]

A couple more pix:

I just like this pic. Lots of green bike with a nice neutral background.


This one shows the clearance between the brake caliper and the electric drive sprocket, in focus this time.

[Tommy L]

I like that Catrike you built

Aerodynamics is cool! With the magic number of 12 degrees leaving you is amazing! and punching a smaller hole
in the frontal area is neat! I notice a difference with and without the "White Sperm". It went from being called
a Road Piranha or Road Shark to Road Sperm.... and we call these people our friends. lol oh, friends and nicknames lol

Headwinds are welcome as you really don't feel them. The cars and trucks on the road today are a drag. Pun intended!

I'm back to two wheels again. The Catrike has the Bionx that can only be mildly tweaked. It's cool for what it is. Very Efficient!
But I want more more more! So my latest build is all about voltage! I will push the 150v mark. Just waiting for my Lyen 18Fet4115
It's in the mail, so it should be here by the end of the year! lol Hmmmmm I just might have to take the Bionx off the Catrike
and put a big motor and slick tire on it!

I'll be watching your build! Again, very nice work here!

Tommy L sends.... \\m//

[oatnet]

Looking really good Matty! Nice color match on the wheels. These A-Lines feel built to take hard duty!

-JD