BMC Super Trail MTB with rewound Xlyte H4060 motor

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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor

Post by oldhaq » Aug 27, 2012 6:18 pm

Yeah I wrote the LeTtErS on each tooth as I went, which matched up with the scheme I printed out from
(in english) http://www.bavaria-direct.co.za/models/ ... ulator.htm
scriewy wrote:just need to decide on rim.
I'm going up in wind count and dropping to a 24" rim.
It was already ripping along nicely on 26", should take it to near breaking traction on dirt, which is all I need.

1 tooth down, 50 to go
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor

Post by Hyena » Aug 27, 2012 7:54 pm

Slick build made, bummer about the issues. I've never actually had a side cover come loose myself but I'm going to check now after your failure!
It looks like I *may* be able to get some more of these in the near future if I wait to piggy back onto someone elses order. Air shipping costs would make for a higher cost than before but not a huge amount. If you're still interested I'll look after you and tax noobs heavily on the others I get to make it worth my while :P

Rewinding the motor is a mammoth task and you're more keen than I my friend! Having looked over the threads of others who've done it has deterred me greatly but if your hands can ever forgive you afterwards it should be bigger and better than ever.
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor

Post by oldhaq » Aug 27, 2012 9:18 pm

Cheers.
Funny about that, I emailed kenny just last nite about them, he said yeah theyre limited edition but I can order some, just waiting for him to give me prices.
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Choppermeister and JJWCC - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p246270
Huffy MTB https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p252774
BMC Super Trail https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 61#p619089
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor

Post by Trackman417 » Aug 27, 2012 10:10 pm

oldhaq wrote:Cheers.
Funny about that, I emailed kenny just last nite about them, he said yeah theyre limited edition but I can order some, just waiting for him to give me prices.
What's limited edition? Motors with failing side covers? :lol:
Lets hope you were the only one to get that rare egg. But seriously, what is limited edition;the H40 series motors?
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor

Post by Hyena » Aug 27, 2012 10:24 pm

The side covers are actually strongly glued on with some form of epoxy from crystaylte. They're a bastard to get the screws out initially because of this and I'd highly doubt they'd even come lose if left alone. That doesn't fly with the likes of us who like to hot rod our motors though :P
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor

Post by oldhaq » Aug 27, 2012 10:38 pm

On previous page
oldhaq wrote:Expensive lesson learned: use threadlock
I had taken the covers off to drill holes

Appears they do limited runs of the 40mm
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Choppermeister and JJWCC - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p246270
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BMC Super Trail https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 61#p619089
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor

Post by Trackman417 » Aug 28, 2012 12:53 am

oldhaq wrote:On previous page
oldhaq wrote:Expensive lesson learned: use threadlock
I had taken the covers off to drill holes

Appears they do limited runs of the 40mm
Damn :evil: well let's just hope I can get my hands on one over here in the US. Either that or I farfle a H-series motor.

You have any pics of your winding so far? How is everything going?
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor

Post by litespeed » Aug 28, 2012 5:58 am

So I chatted with Kenny about these and I guess I didn't realize at first that they are single speed only or in your case 3 small speeds? Assuming so are these similar in performance as the Cro-motors? Wondering if these might be more than I need. I was thinking of doing the H4065 with the highest torque but still want to add peddle force. I stay in the highest speed always on my e-bike now it's just what do I do if something goes wrong.....call a cab or walk I suppose. At 200 lbs does the 4080 have enough get up and go for me with light hills?

Tom
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor

Post by oldhaq » Sep 01, 2012 8:53 am

Hi Tom

With the amount of copper in cro's they can handle a lot more power.
These are a lighter motor, and that's what I like about them, the power to weight ratio, especially when dirt/trail riding.

Depends what goes wrong, if the phases fuse together walk, if fets fuse leave controller disconnected from motor. If you're too worried about it get a geared motor, or fully overbuild a DD setup.

A 4080 or any motor can haul 200lbs, it all depends how you set the controller.

You would be better of starting a specific thread and putting your requirements out there for everyone to advise you.

Rob
My bikes:
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Choppermeister and JJWCC - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p246270
Huffy MTB https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p252774
BMC Super Trail https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 61#p619089
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor

Post by oldhaq » Sep 01, 2012 9:22 am

Progress so far, finished one phase.
1st phase.jpg
1st phase back.jpg
Just been doing a a bit at a time.
It's been extremely tedious packing each slot with 64 strands, I doubt 65 would have been possible.
It had 63 before, but fractionally narrower gauge wire. I wasn't able to get the bamboo slithers back in to cover a couple of the slots. I did trim some slithers towards the end so will retry the others. I don't think they're critical cos the magnetic force would be pushing the copper onto itself, right? And the rewinder that gave me the wire supplier info offered to lacquer it for free when I'm done, hopefully he's got Class H rated.
As for the winding order procedure, I'm reversing the order that I unwound it (ABC), as it became obvious that C was originally done first, then B and A.
My bikes:
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Choppermeister and JJWCC - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p246270
Huffy MTB https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p252774
BMC Super Trail https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 61#p619089
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor

Post by litespeed » Sep 01, 2012 9:30 am

Hey Rob,

I added it here because there are on a couple of guys here that have the 40 series motors, you being one of 3. Sorry if I messed up your thread. I thought I knew what I wanted until the single speed thing came up. I was just rambling. When ready I'm going 3525 with a full gear set to help hide the motor or maybe I should say keep the bike looking closer to stock.

Sorry for the off topic.

Tom
I'm married so you know I'm no stranger to pain!

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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor

Post by oldhaq » Sep 01, 2012 9:37 am

You're ok, I don't mind, you're not really ot.
I hope my advice helps your choice.
My bikes:
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Choppermeister and JJWCC - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p246270
Huffy MTB https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p252774
BMC Super Trail https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 61#p619089
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I thought of that while riding my bike.
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor

Post by Trackman417 » Sep 01, 2012 11:03 am

What question I have, unless if I am mistaken by the pictures. Why are you wrapping some portions of the phase around three teeth and the other portions around 4? It seems to me that each phase section should cover 3 teeth. Ehh that's just me remembering stuff from Farfles build. Looks good and really professional so far!
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor

Post by oldhaq » Sep 01, 2012 8:15 pm

oldhaq wrote:Yeah I wrote the LeTtErS on each tooth as I went, which matched up with the scheme I printed out from
(in english) http://www.bavaria-direct.co.za/models/ ... ulator.htm
Farfle's motor has 63t x 56m, which is a nice even 3 teeth all round.
My bikes:
WCC Chopper longtail - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 60#p170594
Choppermeister and JJWCC - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p246270
Huffy MTB https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p252774
BMC Super Trail https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 61#p619089
www.youtube.com/user/OLDHAQ

I thought of that while riding my bike.
Albert Einstein
on the Theory of Relativity.

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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor (Rewinding)

Post by Trackman417 » Sep 01, 2012 9:09 pm

Ahh well that seems like a good source for winding motors. How many teeth do the H-series motors have again, 50? How would you find the number of poles for the motor, just count the number of magnets?
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If it didn't kill you, it just built your character.
You know your bike is powerful when even you, the builder, can't control it.
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor

Post by shorza » Sep 01, 2012 10:41 pm

litespeed wrote:So I chatted with Kenny about these and I guess I didn't realize at first that they are single speed only or in your case 3 small speeds? Assuming so are these similar in performance as the Cro-motors? Wondering if these might be more than I need. I was thinking of doing the H4065 with the highest torque but still want to add peddle force. I stay in the highest speed always on my e-bike now it's just what do I do if something goes wrong.....call a cab or walk I suppose. At 200 lbs does the 4080 have enough get up and go for me with light hills?

Tom
My 4060 has a 7 speed freewheel attached, although the 135mm rear dropouts needed to be stretched apart slightly

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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor (Rewinding)

Post by oldhaq » Sep 01, 2012 11:35 pm

How many teeth do the H-series motors have again, 50?
51t x 46m
My bikes:
WCC Chopper longtail - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 60#p170594
Choppermeister and JJWCC - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p246270
Huffy MTB https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p252774
BMC Super Trail https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 61#p619089
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor (Rewinding)

Post by Trackman417 » Sep 05, 2012 6:35 pm

Hows the winding going? Champ! Really curious to see how things are coming along.
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor (Rewinding)

Post by oldhaq » Sep 06, 2012 8:38 am

Getting there, slowly but surely, bit more than half done.
It's taking about half hour per tooth, it not a simple case of just wrapping the copper around, need to make sure the strands are sitting fairly parallel inside each slot and any twisting is on the turns.
half wound.jpg
My fingers were getting sore at first but handling it ok now, leather gloves help a lot.
The kitchen section at a dollar shop provided the tools for the job, a $2 plastic spatula and a $5 teflon egg flip with the handle cut off, to press down on the wires through the narrow gap between each tooth. The thickness of each is slightly tapered, the spatula helps to straighten the strands against the walls of the teeth and create grooves to run winds along when needed, and the round edges of the egg flip are most handy to roll along a slot that needs a bit more pressing after the last wind.
tools.jpg
My bikes:
WCC Chopper longtail - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 60#p170594
Choppermeister and JJWCC - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p246270
Huffy MTB https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p252774
BMC Super Trail https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 61#p619089
www.youtube.com/user/OLDHAQ

I thought of that while riding my bike.
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor (Rewinding)

Post by Trackman417 » Sep 12, 2012 8:31 pm

I'm feeling bad for you. Having to cram all of those wires into the teeth of the stator. I took a closer look at the gap in between a finished tooth and a unfinished tooth.. Doesn't look very possible to get all of the wires in there. But your doing it! I'm in the process of buying a H3540 to rewind for shits and giggles.
Quick question: How do you find out the number of poles a motor has?
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor (Rewinding)

Post by scriewy » Sep 12, 2012 9:38 pm

from what i gathered from rewinding threads i think poles is just the number of magnets.

when people say poles it's confusing coz you don't know if the actually mean north or south pole specifically or all poles in general.
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor (Rewinding)

Post by Trackman417 » Sep 30, 2012 1:03 pm

What'd you do?vanish off the face of the earth? You riding this torque monster yet? You better get some wheelie videos in for us to watch when this thing is done.
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If it didn't kill you, it just built your character.
You know your bike is powerful when even you, the builder, can't control it.
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor (Rewinding)

Post by oldhaq » Sep 30, 2012 5:57 pm

Mate! you think your hanging out for this to go, I wish I had even a 6 Fet ready to go and just flog the guts out of it til gave up.
Finished rewinding, put the halls back in and terminated the ends late y/day.
Wanted to lacquer and bake it but can't do that till next week sometime and today is a holiday, so can't be waiting that long to run it :twisted:
I'll blame trackman if it smokes :lol:

So today it goes back on the bike, then I have to finish off and solder the fets into one of the infineon 24's I just got from Zombiess. Actually they arrived just in time cos the hua tong ive been using fizzled the other day.
huatong rip.jpg
huatong rip 2.jpg
To be replaced by this thing of beauty, lapped 4115's and 8G wires.
I swapped the colors to match xlyte, sick of having to look it up.
24fet.jpg
24fet ss.jpg
Have to find a spot to mount it cos it'll be too fat to mount in the rear triangle like the 15 fet was, will likely go behind the seat.

So I don't know how crazy I am by running this motor without lacquering it. Mechanically it's solid - the wires simply don't move in the slots due to them being tightly packed in, electrically I've added pieces of nomex mainly to areas where the wires cross the inner seam of the stator ring.
I couldn't find the original string that was used to tie loose copper runs, so I cut long thin strips of nomex and used that instead, tho prob not needed as it's all fairly tight. I was also a bit nervous of getting a short when hammering the sides flatter with the rubber mallet, probably not a must do as i can see a fair amount of clearance from the side covers, tho it definitely needs to be done where the hall wires wrap over.
wound stator.jpg
This pic i took to show the difference in width after being flattened.
unflat section.jpg
Should be riding it this arv, and yeah, it should have a bit of pull, hopefully for at least a few days, I will try to keep it coolish and get it lacquered during the week.
My bikes:
WCC Chopper longtail - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 60#p170594
Choppermeister and JJWCC - https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p246270
Huffy MTB https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 50#p252774
BMC Super Trail https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 61#p619089
www.youtube.com/user/OLDHAQ

I thought of that while riding my bike.
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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor (Rewinding)

Post by ohzee » Sep 30, 2012 7:28 pm

great job on the rewind.. That motor looks spectacular. cant wait to hear bout the first run.

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Re: BMC Super Trail 01 with H4060 motor (Rewinding)

Post by Trackman417 » Sep 30, 2012 8:26 pm

oldhaq wrote:Mate! you think your hanging out for this to go, I wish I had even a 6 Fet ready to go and just flog the guts out of it til gave up.
Finished rewinding, put the halls back in and terminated the ends late y/day.
Wanted to lacquer and bake it but can't do that till next week sometime and today is a holiday, so can't be waiting that long to run it :twisted:
I'll blame trackman if it smokes :lol:

So today it goes back on the bike, then I have to finish off and solder the fets into one of the infineon 24's I just got from Zombiess. Actually they arrived just in time cos the hua tong ive been using fizzled the other day.
huatong rip.jpg
huatong rip 2.jpg
To be replaced by this thing of beauty, lapped 4115's and 8G wires.
I swapped the colors to match xlyte, sick of having to look it up.
24fet.jpg
24fet ss.jpg
Have to find a spot to mount it cos it'll be too fat to mount in the rear triangle like the 15 fet was, will likely go behind the seat.

So I don't know how crazy I am by running this motor without lacquering it. Mechanically it's solid - the wires simply don't move in the slots due to them being tightly packed in, electrically I've added pieces of nomex mainly to areas where the wires cross the inner seam of the stator ring.
I couldn't find the original string that was used to tie loose copper runs, so I cut long thin strips of nomex and used that instead, tho prob not needed as it's all fairly tight. I was also a bit nervous of getting a short when hammering the sides flatter with the rubber mallet, probably not a must do as i can see a fair amount of clearance from the side covers, tho it definitely needs to be done where the hall wires wrap over.
wound stator.jpg
This pic i took to show the difference in width after being flattened.
unflat section.jpg
Should be riding it this arv, and yeah, it should have a bit of pull, hopefully for at least a few days, I will try to keep it coolish and get it lacquered during the week.
Gotta blame somebody right? Good thing you live half way around the world :D \
As I recall, Hyena had his H40 up to 9kw and then settled back to to 5 or 6kw and the windings were still pristine. And he had the 4080. Can't wait to start winding my motor. How did you split up the coils to rewind the motor? Did you try and make 1 spool for each wire in parallel and about how much wire did you go through?
K2 Sidewinder
H4065 36 mph
20s2p 10aH lipo battery pack
If it didn't kill you, it just built your character.
You know your bike is powerful when even you, the builder, can't control it.
Customer 00001 at our very own Bigmooses online store http://mtg-technologies.com/zencart/ Great guy, great products.

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