Robbo's Raptor

RobboCop

100 mW
Joined
Apr 29, 2015
Messages
40
Location
Perth
I have just bought Rodney64's Raptor 140 as my first e-bike. It looks like Rod has put together a really nice package and I am really lucky to have it.

From a quick look at it, and the description from his ad, the bike is running the following setup:

Qulbix Raptor 140 frame
Nukeproof Warhead Headset
Octane One Handlebars
ODI AG-1 Grips
DNM USD-8 Forks
Shimano Saint 203mm brakes
Shimano Zee crank
Stolen Thermallite pedals
Fox Shox DHX RC4 rear shock
Addaptto Mini-e controller
Crystalyte 4065 hub motor
Hyena Electric Bikes Lithium ion Battery pack
Loading...Schwalbe Winter Spike Tyre
Schwalbe Marathon Plus tyres on 26" MTB rims

For the history of the build, Rod's Build thread can be found here: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=63037


My current plans are to just tidy up a couple of jobs Rod had been meaning to finish but hadn't gotten around to and then use it to commute to work a couple of times a week. As I said before, this is my first e-bike, so I have decided not to do anything too major until I have a good understanding of what I like about the bike, what I don't like and why those things I don't like might be that way. I have never worked on bikes before, but I do have a reasonable background in building and racing cars, so I am hoping that a lot of those skills are mostly transferable.

For those of you that are in to (petrol) cars as well you can see the details of my current car here: http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/f...kling-SR86-Haters-gunna-hate-Tyres-gunna-bake
The car started off super ugly and somewhat questionably constructed, but is now a reasonably reliable package. ***Warning*** Those of you that are on ES purely for eco ideology probably don't want to read through it, its a drift car...


Anyway, I am also hoping to get into the community over here in Perth. Once I am a bit more comfortable with the bike it would be nice to come along to some group rides or something. I am fairly sure I wouldn't be welcome to go with my triathlete friends.... Something about overtaking them without breaking a sweat would likely put them on edge :S
 
And here it is the night we brought it to my house, pictured in my abhorrently messy garage :S

44AC6D7D-43F1-4A0D-BE51-B8931202B48D_zps01luahfa.jpg
 
The crown on the DNM fork is mounted low. Could you measure the top of your front tire to the bottom of the lower crown? I bet it measures below 8", if that is the case it will rub on bottom out.
 
Thanks guys,

Deffx,
Sure thing on coming out for a look, in fact I am signed off to take passengers, so if you come at the right event I am happy to take you out in the car if you're game ;)
As for the Raptor as a pit bike, they are pretty funny about bikes and what not in WA, it happens a bit at other tracks I have been to, but they forbid it in all of the paperwork over here and given that no one does it I am going to guess it's enforced :S

Offroader,
I just went out and measured now, 7.5", there is about an inch of adjustment left so I guess I can knock it up a touch. Thanks for the input there, I guess I haven't noticed yet because I have more or less been using the bike just on roads. I have no idea how the bike will feel in the bush, but clearly lots of others on here give it a good go ;)
 
Did my first commute to and from work today, these bikes really do take all the pain out of hills and the like! I was still pedaling the whole time though and by the time I got off the bike at work my legs were pretty sore.

I got pretty reasonable mileage too, the round trip was around 57km and despite having a fang around work at lunch (had to show it off) I still got home with 56% battery remaining. That was with an average speed of 29km/hr (including time spent stopped at the lights etc). So I'd say most of the time I was sitting at around 30-35 km/hr which I'd say is about as much as you could try and claim is done with legal assistance (and that's a BS argument anyway given that the assistance has to cut out above 25kh/hr).

I also chucked some cheap tire guards on the bike so that I don't have to wear all of the moisture off the shady bike paths around the place but I'm not sure about the look of them at the moment, so they are only attached by cable ties. The bike already stands out a whole bunch so I don't want to make it look any more like a trail bike, especially since I am using a bunch of shared bike/pedestrian paths on the way to and from work.

Anyway, super happy with the bike so far but despite my talk of leaving things un-touched there may already be an upgrade in the not too distant future... One of those things that would be cheaper to do with this opportunity than later when I plan to need it, might have to dig deeper into the credit card :(

DA6F781C-B0D5-4E1B-82E3-67F676A259FA_zpsamplbppy.jpg
 
I spent last night playing around with some of the wiring. I added a left hand button assembly that I got off ebay purely for a button to use for regen. I also changed the route of some of the cables to avoid having as many cables run in and out of the body.I still intend to do a bit more playing around with that in the future, but I haven't decided exactly how I want the cables and hydraulic lines to run yet, so this will have to do for now. I ran the wiring required to connect the factory thermistor to the Mini-e and played around with the settings to achieve a reading that made some kind of sense.

In my first few commutes I found that any patches of soil or sand that had gotten onto the paths or road had the potential to cause issues with the bike kicking out sideways. This was mainly because I had a knobbly up front but a street tyre on back. So I organised with Rod to swap out the rear tarmac tyre for a knobbly instead and I much prefer it. I am hoping to eventually take the bike out on trail runs, so this tyre suits my needs better anyway. In the mean time I have taken the bike out to a few parks and what not for a bit of a bash and its great fun on any kind of undulating terrain! I love coming over short rises on throttle and have the front end just kind of glide along, I think its a reasonable way to start learning how to balance and control the bike before trying anything more risky.

Here is a look at the switch assembly, I am using the horn button for regen as it is the only momentary button on the panel. It's actually quite comfortably positioned but I think I'll keep my eye out for something a little more minimal to use in the long run.

3163158B-5943-4A90-ADDE-8D224E68171C_zpstfp0krid.jpg
 
Good to see your getting some riding in Robbo. I was driving down Wanerroo road on Friday around 4 and saw this bike riding around one of the side streets, I see your have the regen working. Keep an eye one those rear axle bolts. If they come loose an option would be Nord Lock Washers.
 
Yeah, I rode the bike on Friday, so that would have been me ;)

I've already done about 350kms on the bike. Its more fun then being stuck in traffic but I'm not game to ride it on a rainy day, so it might see even more action once spring has sprung.
 
Long time no update,

I have continued to use the bike for the commute to work, I still haven't taken it off on the trails as yet, but am hoping to do so before the summer is out.

The only problems I have had to date are:
A couple of punctures on the rear tyre, and
Chain falls off the whenever I go over a bump that forces a swift movement in the rear suspension (part of the reason I haven't gone off-road).

I have made a couple more changes as well. After trying to cope with a rear puncture on route, I decided that I didn't want to do that again. So, I have converted the rear to tubeless. I did that by buying a 20" BMX puncture resistant tube and stretching it onto the rim. Then I cut the tube down the centre and folded the extras out over the rim edge. I then re-fitted the tyre, filled with Stan's tubeless liquid and inflated. There was a puncture in the tyre that may have been contributing to the losses of tubes, but the Stan's patched that up quite well so far. Unfortunately, I was silly enough to re-fit the tyre backwards (tread facing the wrong direction). I can't be bothered fixing it in the height of summer though, so I will leave it as is for a little while and fix it when I forget how much of a PITA the process was. ;)

Other than that, I also converted the charging wires to something a little more permanent. I had always been a little concerned that the insulation would be damaged from too much rubbing on the edge of the hole they were accessible through. So I have removed the Anderson clips and soldered on a speakon plugset. I drilled out a hole that was just outside the arc of the front forks at full lock and fitted the female side of the connection to the bike. I also siliconed over the connections (again I am a little paranoid when it comes to potential shorts) and around the plug to keep it weatherproof. I think it came out quite well.

IMG_2507_zpsue3nf7kt.jpg


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Happy biking!
 
What really solved my chain problems was getting a clutch derailleur, best thing I ever did. The best bang for your buck and will make your chain nice and silent plus make it much smaller and less prone to getting damaged is the Shimano Zee derailleur. This is a must buy if you want to eliminate those pesky chain problems. For $50 bucks it is just ridiculously cheap also.

I also went with a narrow wide front chaining but I'm not sure how much that helped as I modified everything at the same time.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/shimano-zee-m640-shadow-10-speed-rear-mech/rp-prod82431?gs=1&gclid=Cj0KEQiAtri0BRDLoaCF95e7o_sBEiQA_pgRQ6zyefVa38ffCPPqRXdVUvC7zU_tpWqbR5bd8AnXQ3UaAiHl8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds
 
Offroader said:
What really solved my chain problems was getting a clutch derailleur, best thing I ever did. The best bang for your buck and will make your chain nice and silent plus make it much smaller and less prone to getting damaged is the Shimano Zee derailleur. This is a must buy if you want to eliminate those pesky chain problems. For $50 bucks it is just ridiculously cheap also.

I also went with a narrow wide front chaining but I'm not sure how much that helped as I modified everything at the same time.

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/us/en/shimano-zee-m640-shadow-10-speed-rear-mech/rp-prod82431?gs=1&gclid=Cj0KEQiAtri0BRDLoaCF95e7o_sBEiQA_pgRQ6zyefVa38ffCPPqRXdVUvC7zU_tpWqbR5bd8AnXQ3UaAiHl8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds


Those narrow wide front chainrings, they require narrow wide chain as well? And how to find narrow wide freewheel for the hub?
Or are they all interchangeable?
 
Narrow wide chain rings work best with a 10 speed chain. I just use a regular freewheel, I didn't think they even had narrow wide freewheels. I also never heard of a narrow wide chain.

The narrow wide chainrings got really good reviews. I must say that with the zee clutch derailleur and narrow wide chainring my chain is completely silent and never falls off, and I do a lot of riding that made my old setup fall off like riding stairs. But I'm not sure how much of the improvement was the zee derailleur or the chainring.

Here is the chainring I bought in 32 tooth
http://www.jensonusa.com/!2-K!uq1ofjh4JgLW-v1m6w!/Race-Face-Single-Narrow-Wide-Chainring?utm_source=FRGL&utm_medium=organic&gclid=Cj0KEQiA2b20BRDj4buduIG-y9EBEiQAhgMGFX0vzb9JQe9uzx60zYQbx3OFYe8Xfj_FvQr4zjL_uAgaApm28P8HAQ
 
Take a look at this vid, from here and a minute forward. It seems like the chain is custom to fit the wide narrow sprocket.
[youtube]D6tSYL7cIME?t=557[/youtube]


Hm can't seem to get forum to accept youtube link with time embedded. Just click here https://youtu.be/D6tSYL7cIME?t=557
 
Hehe I just watched it again, and I was wrong. It seems it is just any regular chain. The chain by nature (links) are narrow/wide each link. :oops:
 
macribs said:
Hehe I just watched it again, and I was wrong. It seems it is just any regular chain. The chain by nature (links) are narrow/wide each link. :oops:

Chain links have inners and outers, which have different distances in the width of the 'gap' where the chainrings teeth mesh into. Thus, a chainring with an alternating profile actually fits the chain properly rather than have identical profile without matching to the chain, as a regular chainring has. This is idea of getting the chainring to match the chain is what the Raceface narrow wide is all about to prevent chain drop offs without guide etc. Supposedly they are compatible with 9, 10 and 11 speed.

That car has come such a long way Robbo, I think I read your ae86 build thread not too long after you had bought it! Looks the goods.
 
Cheers Lurkin,

Yeah, I have to admit I spend a lot more time and money on the car than the bike. I'm planning on giving the bike some love though over the next few weeks.

I sold my fun daily in order to get a tow rig for the car on its trailer, so I am planning on doing a lot more commuting on the bike. At the moment the bike is more or less a single speed as the derailer has never been connected. I plan on changing this too so that I can rely on the motor less and get a bit more fitness value out of the bike. I usually sit the chain on the cog that gives me comfortable peddling at around 28km/hr, however, it means that starts, hills, and especially hillstarts ;) are all done by the motor. I figure that even if I can just make use of 2 or 3 gears I will be much less reliant on the motor. So yeah, I am still focusing on just tidying up a couple of little things rather than trying to make it faster or more powerful.

Anyway cheers
 
Front:48t
Rear:11/32t
wheel size:26" nominal
cadence? assumed 80RPM
crank length assumed 170mm

Gear chart using KPH @ 80 RPM:
For 26 inch (nominal) tire with 170 mm cranks
With Shimano 9-speed aq/ar 11-12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32 Cassette

48
11 43.5 either a larger gear here, or a smaller gear on the front will be more ideal if you want about ~30kph. Note the legal requirement is 25... its a bit obvious >40 kph on a downhill looking./moto looking bike.
9.1 %
12 39.8
16.7 %
14 34.1
14.3 %
16 29.9
12.5 %
18 26.6
16.7 %
21 22.8
14.3 %
24 19.9
16.7 %
28 17.1
14.3 %
32 14.9

Courtsey of Sheldon Brown: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/gears/

Suggestion:
- count the teeth on front chainring and rear cassette/freewheel. I think you actually have 7 speed from memory, the above uses 9 speed (which is wrong) but is 11/32t. This will give you the KPH per gearing
- check the cadence is about what you want
- check your crank. Should have the shimano code written on it, into Google = crank length (or measure it).
- wack the figures back into Sheldon's calculator ftw 8)

I should really bother doing this for my own bike! Playing with bike bits is sooo much cheaper. Guys at work are always having me on about how much I spend on them (wiggle/CRC order every fortnight) but its a pee in the pond compared to building cars for sure! :lol:
 
No pictures this update,

Just took the bike out for its first ride after fitting a gear shifter and some other bits and pieces. Such a big difference, I mean I have ridden it as more or less a single speed since I bought the bike and its not like it was awful or anything, but I can't see myself going back to single speed again now. Admittedly I still want to get some exercise out of this bike, and so I guess people who build monster cro-motor builds with single speeds are less concerned with that part of the bike, but still I like the bike a lot more now.

Another added bonus, now that its easier to peddle up hills and the like it looks like I might get a massive range increase. After my 10km test ride (which I spent pretty much the whole time in ECO/legal mode) my range estimate was 487km. In the past I was typically getting around 1km/% battery so that's like a 500% increase in max range. That said, the ride was in mostly flat terrain and the ride to/from work is much hillier, so I guess we'll see what the real world effects are some time next week.

The upgrades were not without their issues though... I am new to modifying bicycles of any kind, so I fell into a few of the rookie traps. Firstly, I decided that I would swap to 10 speed. I believe the gear on the bike now is an 8 speed with the 2nd shortest gear missing. That is actually a positive, because with the large chain ring at the front anything physically bigger than 3rd would foul the chain on the swingarm and even in 3rd (my lowest available gear) I dare say there is probably still a little rub over bumps. Anyway, so I bought all 10 speed gear: chain, derailer, shifter and cassette... and there's my problem... cassette. So rookie error, I didn't realise there was two methods or attaching gears to the rear of a bike. Makes enough sense now, but a little late for this guy. So without being able to attach the cassette, the rear will be staying as a 7 speed of sorts. This means the chain is probably not quite the right size, that said, its not long enough anyway, so I am just sticking with what I have for now. I did fit the clutch derailer (it didn't seem to mind the chain I have) and I have fitted the shifter. That was the start of the next set of problems. So the shifter is your typical trigger style rig, with a nice down shifter that can jump three gears at a time depending on how far you progress the lever. Problem is that it fouls on the thumb throttle that was fitted. Thankfully Rodney64 has loaned me some twist throttles to test out and see what I think. I have a Magura full twist on the bike at the moment. When I first test rode the Stealth bikes (my first e-bike experience) I quite liked the half-twist and when I first saw this Raptor and saw that it had a thumb throttle I immediately assumed it would be a let down. That said, after my first commute I decided that I loved the thumb throttle and I still prefer them.

So, the next things that are happening: I have bought a 7 speed twist shifter (I figured the gaps should be more correct than using a 10 speed shifter on a 7 speed gearset). The twist shift shifter should also allow me to re-fit the thumb throttle all things going well. Finally I was supposed to be going to Japan to do some driving but work has denied my request for leave, so I was thinking I might delay that trip a few months and in the meantime I could 'borrow' some of those funds to upgrade to a max-e controller. It won't give me much more right now, as the H4060 and 25amp/hr pack are both well matched by the mini-e, but it would give me the headroom I would need if I want to push bigger numbers down the track. Not sure on that idea for the moment. Now that I have a little more experience with e-bikes and have a better understanding of what I like and don't like, I wouldn't mind giving a F-37 Stealth Fighter a ride to compare with what I have now. I still like the idea of a fixed length chain with no tensioner, but it is a 2 speed and I wonder if that would be more of a let down now that I have 6 gears available.

Anyway, I might put some pictures up next post if the twist shifter and everything comes off well. The bike is a fair bit tidier now as I have fitted grommets and re-routed some of the lines etc.
 
So I received and fitted the twist shifter. That gave me the freedom to remove the trigger shifter and re-fit the thumb throttle. I decided to put the shifter on the left hand grip so that my right hand could leave in a set amount of throttle and my left hand can change gears as the speed range changes. I also got a motorcycle kill switch button and am using that as a regen switch now. I like it because it doesn't stick out as much as the other cluster did and it doesn't have any redundant buttons on it. So I think I am pretty well done with messing around with the configuration on the handlebars now. Here is a picture of the left grip as it is now: (Right grip has reverted back to how it was)

AEBFC1CE-333F-4C17-92A8-2EAE6B81C6B4_zpspedsiqv2.jpg



Don't really know what's next. As expected I have caught the bug and would love to add some more power, but the reality is to get any meaningful upgrade there I am looking at a new controller and batteries at a minimum. If I plan on using it for any more than a short burst here and there I am looking at a new hub motor as well I guess. The 4060 is a great motor for its current use and having the temp sensor in there is good protection, but they are really not designed for 5kw, let alone 10...

When you add all those components up and factor in the low strength of the Aussie dollar, its looking like the bike will stay as it is for the foreseeable future. I am considering the idea of upgrading to a max-e now so that the bike has room to grow in the future if I have a change of heart.
 
What kind of extra power do you want, do you want higher top speed or more torque?

You should get a lot of power from that controller/hubmotor setup, unless your battery pack is very weak which I doubt.

Why would you need to upgrade the Max-E controller? You can push up to 14KW with that, there is no way that is limiting you.

You can get a lot of power from the Max-E by changing the phase amps/ OVS settings / PWR setting, are you worried about turning these up?
 
The bike has the mini-e controller in it, the upgrade I am considering is the max-e controller.

Mini-e is only rated to a max of 65 battery amps. So at 21S: 88x65 = 5720 watts, less some volts due to li-ion sag and I am pretty well at peak power for the controller. From your post I am assuming you miss read my first post and thought I already had a max-e?

The main reason I haven't just gone out and bought a max-e is the debate over the max C rate of 29e cells. The pack I have is a 25Ahr pack and while 99% of the time I draw much less than 0.5C, 65 amps is closer to 3C and people seem to think 3C is sketchy even as pulse power. The pack only has just over 50 cycles on it, so it would be a waste to swap it out for a new one. Even if I decree that 3C is fine and the batteries can take it, 3C is 75A, so the new controller would only net me an extra 10 usable battery amps, so around 800 watts peak power after sag. The mini-e I have is in great condition, so I can certainly on sell that, but with the AUD being pretty average at the moment its around $1100-$1200 dollars for a max-e to get a whole bunch of growing room, but an immediate benefit of less than 1kw. Even if I was prepared to torture the batteries I have past 3C (and accept the risk of damaging them), I believe the BMS that it runs through is an 80A unit and the last thing I want is to trip the BMS while out on a long ride and have little choice but to pedal the entire way back with the batteries and hubmotor as ballast.

Seems like a rock and an expensive place scenario to me, but I am the first to admit that I am new to e-bikes and may be overlooking something obvious. Thoughts?
 
I just looked up the specs for the mini-E.

It has 180 max peak phase current. That is just too low for any power. If I set my max-e to 180, it would feel like it had absolutely no power. Even my max-e with 350 phase amps could use an increase, but it is still very powerful compared to 180. Unfortunately you have no choice but to upgrade the controller if you want to feel any real power.

A cheap infinion or Lyen controller would give you a huge power increase just because those controllers run a lot more phase amps, probably even more than my max-e.

You could always buy a cheaper controller, but may lose some nice options of the max-e. But yeah the mini-E is just too weak and mostly because of the ridiculous phase amp limitation. You can try increasing the PWR1 setting and see if that helps.

Adaptto put this low phase amp values most likely to deal with less warranty issues, but they were ultra conservative on them. You can always unlock the controller to get more, and you would most likely not damage anything either by turning them up.
 
I don't know about no power, I mean the bike is pretty fast, particularly between say 0 and 40km/hr. It's just that, as with all things, you get more accustomed to its performance and then crave more.

I'll tell you one thing for sure though, after adding the derailer control I have gained some real world endurance! It used to be that I would get around 1% per km out of the 25Ahr pack...

AC1BECDF-B525-41ED-93AF-F30BAF641982_zpsjjyr06mo.jpg


After a bit of high speed testing the other day and my commute to and from work today I have already done 80km with 61% battery remaining. At one point (admittedly during a long flattish section) during the ride home the estimated remaining range on the Adappto went over 1000km.

I mean, regardless as to whether upgrades happen or not, the plan is to continue riding the bike like this. Which means letting the bike do a lot of the work on the ride to work so that I can avoid having a shower when I arrive and then leaving the bike in 250 watt/ 25km/hr mode on the way home and getting some actual fitness value out of the ride. Between the additional weight of the bike and the limited gearing available I would say that the 250 watts below 25km/hr would be lucky to make the bike even with a proper road bike, let along easier to ride...
 
So I finally went and took the bike on a proper trail ride the on Tuesday. I went with one of the guys from work who is right into his downhill riding.

I have to say that the bike was spectacular! I couldn't believe how well the bike glided over all of the terrain and really badly jutting rocks in some sections. I wasn't confident enough to try any of the jumps, but it responded as I wished for pushing over the top of rises to gain some better acceleration. We got to the end of the ride and my mate, who again goes riding several times a week, was completely exhausted and I was minty fresh but had kept up no worries.

I was definitely the weak point in the equation though, I dare say the bike could have been ridden A LOT faster with someone else on it, but hey I haven't done that much off-road riding since I was a kid and even then it was on BMXs.

I was properly scared at one point when the throttle didn't snap back to zero and I was trying desperately to stop before running straight into a big rock, but I somehow managed not to kill myself. In fact during the whole ride I kind of understood how people feel when they have been building their racecars for years and go out for their first drive. The bike was more powerful then I was really ready for most of the time, it was a bit hard on the nerves at times ;)

That said, and despite how amazing the ride was the other day I have been considering selling the bike to build something myself. I am the kind of person that never fully owns someone else's build. And even though I have done some work on this bike and pulled just about everything apart and put it back together, this will always be Rod's old bike in my eyes. I'm itching at the idea of building something from scratch, but I am also a little reluctant to sell what is a really solid package...

Decisions Decisions hey? Sounds like first world problems I guess ;)
 
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