Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

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specializedMX
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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by specializedMX » Jul 03, 2017 1:32 am

Probably not if you make it out of aluminium. But you're right, ebike it is then :D

Also will there be a possibility of a saddle instead of the bicycle seat?

Final question, may I know what program was this made in?
Image

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jul 03, 2017 12:33 pm

I have no idea where that image comes from, but it could be any CAD package.

Neematic has not released the bike nor any detailed specifications, so no idea if they will offer a moto seat option.

But if not, it would certainly not be hard to make.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Sean9002 » Jul 03, 2017 5:17 pm

specializedMX wrote:Neematic. I was looking to replicate the frame design but just remove the storage box (where I assume is the electronics) and use it as an MTB.

Looking for a frame so I'd go with either neematic's but slightly changed or this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw8zS4DArxQ
Thats a hideous looking design. Function might be there, but form is important. The Neematic frame is very attractive from a design perspective.
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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jul 03, 2017 5:24 pm

Sean9002 wrote:
Thats a hideous looking design.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder :)

IT, is not hideous, you just happen not to like it :)

And yes, I like the Neematic design too.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Jul 03, 2017 5:38 pm

I kind of liked that design. And did you notice the unusual design of the head tube? Adjustable head tube angle. Even the rear shock angle is adjustable as well as the pivot point. That was a nice feature. Seems the guy triangulated even the tubes, I wonder if that has any advantages over regular round tubes? I mean will it be stiffer and less susceptible to flexing then round tube? For a home made design I would say thumbs up for that design.

Looking closer on that vid he uses dual rear shocks. Not working in tandem like the beta Vector, but on opposite sides of the rocker arm. Complex design I wonder if that design brings any advantages over a regular mono shock? Weight I don't count as important as it is next to nothing really. I really struggle to picture how that would work over big whoops.

I am sure that bike would be a perfect match with Dave's tangent drive or Matt's davinci drive.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by John in CR » Jul 03, 2017 10:44 pm

Not enough room for batteries for a 20kw ebike. That's where everything has fallen down and we end up stuck with the common pregnant guppy look of any frames capable of sufficient battery space. Plus the shape of the pregnant guppies space is a nightmare to fit any advanced, high power, long life battery packs. Though it doesn't need to be totally rectangular, we need an eye pleasing design conducive to large rectangular batteries.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jul 03, 2017 11:42 pm

Actually, I would be curious to calculate how big a battery their box could handle using 5/6 ah 2170 cells, I bet it would be quite sufficient.

And by the time they actually release the bike, these may actually be widely available :)

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Ohbse » Jul 04, 2017 1:13 am

scrambler wrote:
Sean9002 wrote:
Thats a hideous looking design.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder :)

IT, is not hideous, you just happen not to like it :)

And yes, I like the Neematic design too.
I agree that it's hideous, however it's extremely underwhelming engineering that I find so unattractive. The main frame is composed of two squares with no triangulation! The adjustable angle headtube is a feature worth having, however implementing it via two short rose jointed tie rods is insane from a complexity, expense, strength and adverse adjust-ability standpoint (you could adjust the headtube out of true with reference to the frame or put angular load on the bottom mount, just crazy)

Telling is the fact that this frame (with NO electric components!) requires TWO SHOCKS because of its sheer weight.

In comparison the Neematic is beautiful in its functional prowess, it's correct design with form extending from function IMO.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by madin88 » Jul 04, 2017 3:23 am

John in CR wrote:Not enough room for batteries for a 20kw ebike. That's where everything has fallen down and we end up stuck with the common pregnant guppy look of any frames capable of sufficient battery space. Plus the shape of the pregnant guppies space is a nightmare to fit any advanced, high power, long life battery packs. Though it doesn't need to be totally rectangular, we need an eye pleasing design conducive to large rectangular batteries.
The battery box doesn't look that small, and if i think of the newest Sanyo 20700A, or the Samsung 21700T, than 20kW would be absolutely no problem. But considering the range at 20kW, it would be to less..
However, i anyway think the 20kW are rather a peak rating (during acceleration), because i don't think they have geared the bike for 150kmh+ on the flat, of going up 100kmh on a steep hill.
It is still bicycle stuff :)

The highest energy density with cylindrical cells can be achieved by assembling the cells in honeycomb shape inside a battery box that is 60/30° angled (and the neematic looks like it is designed for that).

here similar box of the LMX (hope a crosslink is ok):

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... 5#p1301146
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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by specializedMX » Jul 04, 2017 12:49 pm

Yes, I thought of going with neematic firstly, it's so simple and looks damn good. Do you think 2x2cm aluminium pipes could be strong enough?

That guy has a few more frame designs besides the enduro one.
https://youtu.be/Ls91sYsqgEM MTB
https://youtu.be/i13LCRXd6Uo downhill e-bike

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jul 05, 2017 4:44 pm

Today's announcement from Neematic:

We are limiting the first production series to 50 bikes and they will be delivered in mid 2018.
You are able to secure your place on the priority list to get your very own Neematic FR/1 bike. The EUR 200 deposit will be placed into escrow and is refundable in full, at any time at your request - before the purchase agreement has been signed. We will prepare detailed purchase agreements in the beginning of 2018.
The final price of the first production series bike will be EUR 8,000 + taxes and shipping. We expect it to be higher once we start regular sales a year later.


If I read that right, they will deliver 50 bikes starting july 2018, and regular production will start july 2019....

This is becoming the most frustrating Ebike endeavor ever :)

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Jul 05, 2017 5:02 pm

And now two years to regular production? Do I start to smell vaporware?

Or have they started from scratch again? Maybe I am just ignorant but two more years? This thread was started in Feb 2016. And regular production start mid 2019? 3 1/2 year from model to market? I think they need to hire some additional hands. Before they reach market someone will be making something better and cheaper if they continue with this lazy pace.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Ohbse » Jul 05, 2017 6:14 pm

scrambler wrote:Today's announcement from Neematic:

We are limiting the first production series to 50 bikes and they will be delivered in mid 2018.
You are able to secure your place on the priority list to get your very own Neematic FR/1 bike. The EUR 200 deposit will be placed into escrow and is refundable in full, at any time at your request - before the purchase agreement has been signed. We will prepare detailed purchase agreements in the beginning of 2018.
The final price of the first production series bike will be EUR 8,000 + taxes and shipping. We expect it to be higher once we start regular sales a year later.


If I read that right, they will deliver 50 bikes starting july 2018, and regular production will start july 2019....

This is becoming the most frustrating Ebike endeavor ever :)
I think these guys have been sucked in to 'startup' culture, that's an insane timeline given the enormous amount of development time already under their belts. At this point they've built a far better marketing hype company than a manufacturer of anything. Avoid.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Jul 05, 2017 7:30 pm

The thing I can't understand is that Linukas have been building trellis frames for years. He even moved on to alu frames with his company 4motus. Suddenly close to 4 year is needed to amp up production?

And it can't be a scam either, I mean deposit is only 200 $. Times 50. It is only 10.000 $ in total. He wouldn't destroy his good reputation for change. So we can look away from scam.

Have they discovered long term flaws in their build? Didn't motor or controller work? Are they looking into making a gearbox?
Something must have changed since they first started this project. I can't remember them ever talk about production mid 2019.

From the pics and what little have been shared I think they are or at least have been using some sort of Revolt motor. Did they maybe run into some of the problems larsb did with his 120 pro? Or maybe the supplier of controller couldn't deliver? Their supplier vanished from this forum after brief introduction of their new product line. Several people have tried PM and emails with no response.

Their product must be real, after all some forum members have done test rides of the Neematic. I even think Neematic had stand on a Bike fair? Maybe there are health issues or real life have taken its toll?

When the first few photos was released people had so high hopes for Neematic. Me included. Last year I even said I expected Neematic to be the bike of 2017. Little did I know it would still be impossible to buy during 2017.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Jul 07, 2017 8:03 am

Yeah something is wrong with their motor choice for sure, today Neematic released this video. Claiming 15 kw peak power.
Significant lower then the 20 kw they have been talking about for more then a year and half now.

Too little too late and still at top dollar?


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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by scrambler » Jul 07, 2017 12:08 pm

macribs wrote:
Too little too late and still at top dollar?
It will only be too little too late if something else comes along...

Unfortunately there are not many choices for high powered mid drive bikes with pedal assist.
As long as that remains the case and no matter how frustrating it is to watch, they are still a fairly unique offering.

It is almost as frustrating as watching Stealth lacking updates on their bikes, like larger-better batteries, more powerful motor, more modern controller and display, good pedal assist (torque sensing based), less overinflated US prices...

They came up with a great product early on, but the lack of competition means they have no incentive to push forward, they can keep milking the top of the market with outdated configurations and high price premiums
The product is still great and good enough for most, but could be so much better and more affordable...

If they dont keep innovating, may be the bigger manufacturers will change the dynamic at one point, like with the first quite good move of Bultaco.
Last edited by scrambler on Jul 07, 2017 12:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Cricket_Swe » Jul 07, 2017 12:41 pm

I asked about 20kw and they answered:

Image

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Jul 07, 2017 5:38 pm

Is it ever enough? I see 15 kw as a let down, because clearly it did not take them a year and a half to find the limits of their components. They could have stopped the 20 kw marketing hype the minute they understood it was not achievable. But no, until today Neematic kept that. Even started the pre order without letting people know 15 kw rather then 20 kw.

Well it does not really matter much to me anyhow, as I am not of the fortunate 50 that gets to ride Neematic next summer it will be at least two more years before we can purchase a Neematic over the counter. And who knows what is available of hardware by then? Better controllers, more refined algorithms, more efficient motors with better cooling, more copper and even better magnets.

But in light of their shameless marketing of "the 20 kw mx bike" I got to say 15 kw is weak sauce.

Put 4-5 grand into the new mid drive vector frame and you can have a great 15 kw mid drive this year.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by madin88 » Jul 08, 2017 1:22 am

macribs wrote: Put 4-5 grand into the new mid drive vector frame and you can have a great 15 kw mid drive this year.
Probabaly the wrong thread to discuss it further, but i would not put any cent on a Vector, Ekross (or chobotar frame).
People who ride offroad with those are reporting about cracks near the welds after short time, and bended parts (the damper plate and the entire front area flexes A LOT).
check the topic "chobotar frame owners" and you will see what i mean. The construction of the middrive Frame will not be differnt i'm afraid..
I bought two kickstands from Vector and both broke after one month.

If you ask me, they just take parts and weld them together "the russia way". No fenite elements method (FEM) of stressed parts in certain areas.
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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Aebrennan » Jul 08, 2017 2:04 am

Put 4-5 grand into a welder and pipe bender and every Es honorary bike engineer can build the best machine and quit hacking on stealth and neematic for being overpriced!
I understand the e-bike market, Chinese/Russian hub motor bikes in cheap frames = happy es genius
Anyone who appreciates a quality ride/build has no issues paying for quality products.
Good bikes ain't cheap and cheap bikes ain't good.
That yellow vector mid drive looks like a 10 year old designed it!

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Jul 08, 2017 3:07 am

Aebrennan wrote:Put 4-5 grand into a welder and pipe bender and every Es honorary bike engineer can build the best machine and quit hacking on stealth and neematic for being overpriced!
I understand the e-bike market, Chinese/Russian hub motor bikes in cheap frames = happy es genius
Anyone who appreciates a quality ride/build has no issues paying for quality products.
Good bikes ain't cheap and cheap bikes ain't good.
That yellow vector mid drive looks like a 10 year old designed it!
I am not arguing look or design, we are familiar with the 4motus from linukas and know he strives for quality. It is more what can you get today as opposed to wait a year or even two. As I said earlier, if you wait two more years for production ramp up it could even be that there are better components available for Neematic within their maximum targeted components weight so that 20 kw or more is possible.

But Neematic is not here today, not next month and will be available to 50 owners earliest next summer. And because of the slow process taking Neematic to market I am not sure I would put my money on Neematic now, over a diy build from a frame kit. Will Neematic meet their self proclaimed deadline on the 50 first production run bike next year or will there be delays? I think that is the main I problem I have. I know people that has been trying to buy a Neematic several times via email to neematic over the past 18 months with no luck yet.

I don't claim that frame kits are the best option, clearly it is not for everyone. Nor will I argue the design or claim the geometry is perfect. Even the design itself may have flaws or shortcomings. But I think many of the frame kits out today are "good enough" for many of us. At some point in development you got to say, good enough and move from deign and alpha testing into production. When a bike is in full production the v2 design, or improvements can be the focus point. But getting product to market is a key element.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Aebrennan » Jul 08, 2017 7:54 am

The term "good enough " is the main problem with the world today, we settle for whatever shite does the job and is the cheapest.
Yes I agree you COULD build a better bike for less money but you never get it perfect first time and it becomes months possibly years of talking and not riding....and you don't include your labour as cost?
The grass is always greener, and better motor and controller and battery will become available that is what the rest of the world is waiting for, but in the meantime don't accept cheap nasty sub standard shite because it's cheap!
This encourages the mass production of shite, like the so called "stealth bomber" frames readily available cheap hub motors and ugly converted hub motor frames called mid drive.
I will take a Neematic in a year rather than ride junk in the meantime!

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by macribs » Jul 08, 2017 10:39 am

Order one if you like, they have started pre orders. Only 50 bikes will made for next year so I reckon you will put your money down? Meantime I will wait with patience for your review next summer while I enjoy a sub quality mid drive while waiting. And I can ride that sub quality mid drive for two years at least before I can get my hands on a Neematic. That is if Neematic does come to market.

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by madin88 » Jul 08, 2017 11:07 am

macribs, i understand your frustration about neematic. No updates, no comments, no pictures technical details etc.. and than offering preorders. I just hope it is getting "better".
macribs wrote: And I can ride that sub quality mid drive for two years at least before I can get my hands on a Neematic. That is if Neematic does come to market.
The frame is one of the most important parts. If it's cheap made and showing cracks and rust after a few years as a consequence, than good luck finding a different frame where you can reuse that 1000€ custom made battery and other custom made parts.
Speaking from my personal experience, i can tell you that it isn't nice if you own a frame that is known to not even surviving a half expected battery life because of poor construction.
Buy cheap, buy twice.

btw: don't forget the Neematic has a Pinion gear which costs alone around 1000USD :wink:
Aebrennan wrote: I understand the e-bike market, Chinese/Russian hub motor bikes in cheap frames = happy es genius
Anyone who appreciates a quality ride/build has no issues paying for quality products.
Good bikes ain't cheap and cheap bikes ain't good.
That yellow vector mid drive looks like a 10 year old designed it!
Nicely Said
- Votec V-FR frame / MXUS 3T / 17" Mitas MC11 / Adaptto Max-E / 20s12p 25R -> approved as L1e moped and fully road legal in EU :)
- Vector white / MXUS 4T / 24" Hookworms / Adaptto Max-E / 22s11p 25R
- KTM Hardtail Pedelec / eZee V2 6T / 27,5" / Kelly KBSX @ 1,5kW / Torque PAS / CA-V3 / 13s4p Sanyo GA in Shark case

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Re: Neematic - 20kW middrive bike

Post by Aebrennan » Jul 08, 2017 4:41 pm

In Australia our domestic car production has ceased due to majority settling for cheap Chinese/Korean vehicles.
I think supporting companies striving for quality like Stealth (even though I don't like riding hub motor bikes)Lmx and Neematic is important in pushing the e-bike message in the right direction.
Do you encourage Toyota to build more ugly Prius looking ev's or Tesla?

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