100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

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gman1971
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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 09, 2017 4:28 pm

Voltron wrote:And how well does GP bike do off road? You keep mentioning aero... But never addressing how it would actually be possible or effective on a trail bike built around a 35 mph average...
And no matter how great your wh/m are... most anybody riding off road prefers the mobility benefits of an unfaired two wheeler vs ultra efficiency... But to each their own of course.
I think you confuse prefer to having a choice. ATM you don't have a choice on MTBs, the same way I didn't have a choice with my unfaired stock KMX trike, which wasn't any better than a good road bike with aerobars; so to solve the problem the first solution that came to my head was "just stick a giant 8kWh pack under the trike seat bolted to the frame... done", but instead decided that cutting the CdA with panels would give me the same net result, using 1/3rd the battery capacity and a lot less weight, and then I could quickly detach the pack from the trike/bike to take inside when its -20F outside...

You don't need a motoGP fairing to see measurable improvements, look up aerodynamics on a bike and read about it instead of claiming it can't be done, that is the reason why there are no more aero MTBs, b/c guys like you think is not possible so they settle for whatever its out there; when cycling racing teams spend a fortune aero-tuning 2-wheeled upright vehicles and get pretty amazing results... without the use of any fairing, sans the helmet.

Aerodynamics are not like building a a giant battery pack, there is no one size fits all magic bullets; is a sum of small improvements that make the overall, and it would be different depending on the bike/trike its done.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 09, 2017 5:06 pm

Show me a single successful case of a faired off road bicycle or motocross bike and I'll believe it I guess.
Everybody else seems to acknowledge trikes are good sometimes... Are you still unable to say a big battery is sometimes a reasonable thing when fairings aren't possible?
download.jpg
download.jpg (6.81 KiB) Viewed 925 times
You could make your fairing so good you can pedal to 60 with no battery... But still hard to ride over a log...
I'm open to the possibilities...

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 09, 2017 5:38 pm

Voltron wrote:Show me a single successful case of a faired off road bicycle or motocross bike and I'll believe it I guess.
Everybody else seems to acknowledge trikes are good sometimes... Are you still unable to say a big battery is sometimes a reasonable thing when fairings aren't possible?
Show you? what for? to copy the idea that you can't seem to figure out on your own? Show me doesn't prove it can't be done, but I guess you don't get that. You can ask anyone to show you how many KMX trikes have an even remotely similar body fairing to mine... there are none... again, just because there are no examples it doesn't mean it can't be done. We believed the Earth was flat, and that it was the center of the universe... back then there was no way to prove otherwise, yet they were wrong. Claim what you want, but I will enjoy smoking your eBike on the road when I see you going enroute to your impassable rocks and logs destination, and on your way back home too, if you have any battery left... I'll let you have these rocks and logs if you so much desire,

I will always believe its a royal waste of money when something could've been achieved in a much clever way for a lot less money; regardless of a trike, a bike... aero improvements are always good. And to conclude here, there isn't much technical value, more like showoff value, in posting the obvious plus one, just like building a giant 5.1kWh pack to increase range b/c the eBike is an aerodynamic debacle.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 09, 2017 5:49 pm

Voltron wrote: Image
That is the epitome of an impractical two wheeled vehicle on a closed body..., good luck when you stop at a traffic light. If you think trikes were no good for offroad, that thing is useless almost everywhere, except maybe on a flat road trying to break the land speed human power record.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 09, 2017 6:54 pm

Yeah...copying a fairing because I'm too lazy to design one... ha!

You seem to think the aero shell is impractical around town.. I think a trike is impractical off-road. We all have something we value more than something else in a design, but that doesn't make a different path wrong just because it's not your way.

I guess you really are incapable of seeing anything but an aero trike as worthy for any purpose... but there's so much beauty to be seen once you get away from flat level surfaces you're really missing out.

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Powervelocity.com » Oct 09, 2017 8:22 pm

Well, thanks for compliments. But look. This is just a battery pack. Doesn't have to be on ebikes you despise. Make it larger or smaller and install it on a trike. That will sure make things clever.
gman1971 wrote:
Voltron wrote:Show me a single successful case of a faired off road bicycle or motocross bike and I'll believe it I guess.
Everybody else seems to acknowledge trikes are good sometimes... Are you still unable to say a big battery is sometimes a reasonable thing when fairings aren't possible?
Show you? what for? to copy the idea that you can't seem to figure out on your own? Show me doesn't prove it can't be done, but I guess you don't get that. You can ask anyone to show you how many KMX trikes have an even remotely similar body fairing to mine... there are none... again, just because there are no examples it doesn't mean it can't be done. We believed the Earth was flat, and that it was the center of the universe... back then there was no way to prove otherwise, yet they were wrong. Claim what you want, but I will enjoy smoking your eBike on the road when I see you going enroute to your impassable rocks and logs destination, and on your way back home too, if you have any battery left... I'll let you have these rocks and logs if you so much desire,

I will always believe its a royal waste of money when something could've been achieved in a much clever way for a lot less money; regardless of a trike, a bike... aero improvements are always good. And to conclude here, there isn't much technical value, more like showoff value, in posting the obvious plus one, just like building a giant 5.1kWh pack to increase range b/c the eBike is an aerodynamic debacle.

G.

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 10, 2017 3:24 am

Voltron wrote:Yeah...copying a fairing because I'm too lazy to design one... ha!

You seem to think the aero shell is impractical around town.. I think a trike is impractical off-road. We all have something we value more than something else in a design, but that doesn't make a different path wrong just because it's not your way.

I guess you really are incapable of seeing anything but an aero trike as worthy for any purpose... but there's so much beauty to be seen once you get away from flat level surfaces you're really missing out.
As an AE, yes I do... if it was up ppl like with your attitude planes would still look like the Wright's flyer... and you seem fixated with the trikes vs bikes debate... get over it man; good aerodynamics can be implemented on anything that cuts through the air regardless of a trike, a bike... anything, and offer far more benefits than just sticking a giant pack on an EV. And you won't acknowledge that either. Some aero tweaks could extend that 5.1 kWh pack to run 150+ miles, whats not to like about doubling your EV range with some minor tweaks?

No, I am not missing out, I've also built a high power mid-drive eBike to romp on any single track if I ever want/need to, but the thing is, I would do single track a few times a year, but I have to ride to and from work five days a week.

Btw, an enclosed body on TWO WHEELS like the picture you showed earlier is totally impractical around town, what is to disagree with that? Or didn't you notice it only had two wheels? That two wheeled HPV requires a standing person next to you to hold it while it gets going. A Velomobile trike is not the same as that thing portrayed on the picture; and yes, I have thought about owning one too, but financial considerations need to be taken into account b/c Velomobiles aren't cheap, plus a Velo is not an easily modifiable platform like the KMX trike is... and then, without visible pedals there will be an increased risk of getting pulled over and asked about it, especially if I was to stick a high power motor setup on it.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 10, 2017 3:30 am

Not the point of why I posted. Again, forget the trike... the point is that you could extend the range of that pack further with some aero tweaks that don't require enclosing your eBike inside a shell of any kind as Voltron seems to think... that's all.

G.
Powervelocity.com wrote:Well, thanks for compliments. But look. This is just a battery pack. Doesn't have to be on ebikes you despise. Make it larger or smaller and install it on a trike. That will sure make things clever.
gman1971 wrote:
Voltron wrote:Show me a single successful case of a faired off road bicycle or motocross bike and I'll believe it I guess.
Everybody else seems to acknowledge trikes are good sometimes... Are you still unable to say a big battery is sometimes a reasonable thing when fairings aren't possible?
Show you? what for? to copy the idea that you can't seem to figure out on your own? Show me doesn't prove it can't be done, but I guess you don't get that. You can ask anyone to show you how many KMX trikes have an even remotely similar body fairing to mine... there are none... again, just because there are no examples it doesn't mean it can't be done. We believed the Earth was flat, and that it was the center of the universe... back then there was no way to prove otherwise, yet they were wrong. Claim what you want, but I will enjoy smoking your eBike on the road when I see you going enroute to your impassable rocks and logs destination, and on your way back home too, if you have any battery left... I'll let you have these rocks and logs if you so much desire,

I will always believe its a royal waste of money when something could've been achieved in a much clever way for a lot less money; regardless of a trike, a bike... aero improvements are always good. And to conclude here, there isn't much technical value, more like showoff value, in posting the obvious plus one, just like building a giant 5.1kWh pack to increase range b/c the eBike is an aerodynamic debacle.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 10, 2017 8:43 am

First off.."if it was up ppl like with your attitude planes would still look like the Wright's flyer."

Thats another just plain stupid comment. Nobody is saying aerodynamic advancement are bad~ and that you would show one but your ideas would be getting ripped off by the advancement haters like me?
Thats especially ridiculous on Endless Sphere which is about freely sharing ev adancements.. yet your worried Im going to rip off your imaginary off road fairing, that a Wright Flyer lover like myself would hate anyway? lol!

You are a masterpiece of projection Gman. I keep asking about how one would actually fair an off road long travel two wheeler... and you keep bringing it around to aero trikes!
Even your own post where you said it isn't about trikes you then talk about trikes, and then post that that wasn't your point! lol


I'm all for aero... when I flew hang gliders, we did everything possible to reduce drag. I love my aero bars and wheels on my road bike. Nobody is saying aero is bad... or if you ride on pavement all the time that aero won't extend range, or that reducing drag isn't a worthy goal.
The fact is that you personally want to trade off-road usability for higher speed drag reduction. Great.. make that choice. But don't get all butthurt when people make an informed choice to take a different path.

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 10, 2017 11:16 am

I've only mentioned trikes b/c I did the aero upgrades on a trike, the same way it could've been done on an upright MTB. Then you decided it was important to point the trikes can't do rocks or logs... who cares, that was not the point of my post, but you quickly jumped to compare aerodynamics with log hopping ability. Just like aero bars might improve aero, there are more ways to do it.

You can try to make all the fun you want off me, I honestly don't care; now the question is, what are you Voltron? What do you have to show for? Care to share your achievements, please? I would certainly like to see some of them, if any.

I am all about sharing, and there is a long track record here on E-S of me trying to help other members setup their Cyclone mid-drives, for 3 years now; sharing exactly the magic formula of how-to build an EV with a Cyclone mid-drive and succeed at it... Well, its all great until someone decides to come along and start claiming that something is not possible..., when I see that, I switch into this mode of why bother sharing, feeling like I am casting pearls before swine, but I can't pass a good argument.

G.

Voltron wrote:First off.."if it was up ppl like with your attitude planes would still look like the Wright's flyer."

Thats another just plain stupid comment. Nobody is saying aerodynamic advancement are bad~ and that you would show one but your ideas would be getting ripped off by the advancement haters like me?
Thats especially ridiculous on Endless Sphere which is about freely sharing ev adancements.. yet your worried Im going to rip off your imaginary off road fairing, that a Wright Flyer lover like myself would hate anyway? lol!

You are a masterpiece of projection Gman. I keep asking about how one would actually fair an off road long travel two wheeler... and you keep bringing it around to aero trikes!
Even your own post where you said it isn't about trikes you then talk about trikes, and then post that that wasn't your point! lol


I'm all for aero... when I flew hang gliders, we did everything possible to reduce drag. I love my aero bars and wheels on my road bike. Nobody is saying aero is bad... or if you ride on pavement all the time that aero won't extend range, or that reducing drag isn't a worthy goal.
The fact is that you personally want to trade off-road usability for higher speed drag reduction. Great.. make that choice. But don't get all butthurt when people make an informed choice to take a different path.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by The Toecutter » Oct 10, 2017 6:41 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if it were possible to make an upright mountain bike built for extreme usage cases(primarily offroad) have 25-30% less drag than is typical, without compromising its utility as an offroad machine. You'd add perhaps 10-15 lbs of plastic to the bike, in exchange for dramatically improved drag and a significant increase in range for the same size of battery pack.

A good place to start would be the front of the bike. A small fairing designed to mount at the front of the forks near the pivot point of the steering system, with attention paid to where it doesn't pose a hazard to the rider in a wreck and doesn't pose clearance issues during high speed riding on rough terrain, is a good place to start. It would be a small piece, maybe 2.5 sq ft in area or so. The sides of the bike are another area to look, but what is already present is a lot better than an exposed pack/components, so that was a decent start there, but the exposed air-cooled controller may be able to be replaced with a liquid cooled unit that can be sealed, further aiding aero. The area behind the seat is another place to look for drag reduction. A piece that mounted to the seat post and was designed not to contact the rear wheel/suspension/bottom torque arms during jumps is also doable, and will likely be where most of your gains are made. Aero spokes on the wheels are another obvious solution, under the condition that wheel disc covers won't be usable for the application.

I think what gman is saying is that there is more performance that can be wrought from this vehicle and setup without hindering its current application or performance during its normal usage cases, and may in fact show a marked improvement. It might make the designer think about the improvements that this allows, such as perhaps a lighter battery pack to improve acceleration or cornering without reducing the range below what it currently is in the real world without these said aeromods?

Just some things to think about. This is an excellent build, but it's not nearly at the limit of what is possible.

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by jansevr » Oct 10, 2017 7:46 pm

Aero shouldn't even be a concern for speeds between 20-25mph. You might be able to gain 10% range with a fairing but clearly this isn't a concern for most people as very few examples of fairings for e bikes exist. Obviously a trike will have much less drag compared to a bike because of the frontal area but these are two different vehicles for different applications. If you're going for distance you're not going to be going that fast so there isn't much room for gains with aero. Also trikes are not only terrible off-road but are inherently dangerous on road in traffic because of the low ride height. This is my experience anyways...and yes I do have an electric trike (cattrike 700) and have even experimented with a coroplast frontal fairing and rear tail on a mtb with very good results at speeds over 30mph but negligible gains in the 20s where I normally was riding. Just my 2 cents.

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 10, 2017 11:18 pm

jansevr wrote:Aero shouldn't even be a concern for speeds between 20-25mph. You might be able to gain 10% range with a fairing but clearly this isn't a concern for most people as very few examples of fairings for e bikes exist. Obviously a trike will have much less drag compared to a bike because of the frontal area but these are two different vehicles for different applications. If you're going for distance you're not going to be going that fast so there isn't much room for gains with aero. Also trikes are not only terrible off-road but are inherently dangerous on road in traffic because of the low ride height. This is my experience anyways...and yes I do have an electric trike (cattrike 700) and have even experimented with a coroplast frontal fairing and rear tail on a mtb with very good results at speeds over 30mph but negligible gains in the 20s where I normally was riding. Just my 2 cents.
You have to get to the "rocks and logs" somehow, and to do so you have to ride on the road.

An unfaired trike has already a pretty good CdA to begin with, so adding a front fairing isn't going to make much of a difference... to see noticeable differences it requires a lot of work on the underside to prevent turbulence underneath.. I know this b/c I've datalogged every single panel I've installed on my trike since it was an unfaired KMX trike. The biggest gains didn't come from the front, they came from the underbelly and reattaching the air wake... (since I wanted to keep open cockpit)

So, lets do some numbers:

Assuming a 0.8 m^2 frontal area A and a 1.0 Cd you get a 0.8 CdA
0.8 CdA vehicle requires ~420 watts to ride at 20 mph. and ~756W to ride at 25 mph.

Now slash the Cd down to 0.3 (but keep the frontal area the same at 0.8 m^2) you get a 0.24 CdA
and a 0.24 CdA vehicle now requires 170 watts to ride at 20 mph. and ~285W to ride at 25 mph.

That is a whopping 240 Watts difference at 20 mph, and a total of ~470 Watts at 25 mph. And at 25 mph you will have more than doubled your range with that Cd reduction. So, with a few dollars worth of plastic you achieved the same effect as a 3000 dollar battery pack, but without the weight penalty and the giant burning hole in your pocket. And you don't have to go as far as a 1/3rd Cd reduction to start seeing tangible results.

The eBike he has seems like a perfect candidate to do aero work on it, its already pretty massive and has a lot of square shapes, and there are only few thing worse than a square shape in aerodynamics, a flat plate into the wind ... for example

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 10, 2017 11:21 pm

jansevr wrote:Aero shouldn't even be a concern for speeds between 20-25mph. You might be able to gain 10% range with a fairing but clearly this isn't a concern for most people as very few examples of fairings for e bikes exist. Obviously a trike will have much less drag compared to a bike because of the frontal area but these are two different vehicles for different applications. If you're going for distance you're not going to be going that fast so there isn't much room for gains with aero. Also trikes are not only terrible off-road but are inherently dangerous on road in traffic because of the low ride height. This is my experience anyways...and yes I do have an electric trike (cattrike 700) and have even experimented with a coroplast frontal fairing and rear tail on a mtb with very good results at speeds over 30mph but negligible gains in the 20s where I normally was riding. Just my 2 cents.
You live in Milwaukee!!, we should meet man... :)

Okay, back to the giant battery (vs. aero) thread...

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 11, 2017 5:18 am

Just gotta say in my book Gman, anybody that actually uses the phrase pearls before swine is a giant asshole. As the implied swine in your comment... frock (and thats ES spelling it that way.. I used the traditional spelling) you and the trike you rolled in on. Anyone that uses phrases like that, and "people like you" as soon as you see things a different way isn't looking for a good discussion... he's just a dick.

This isn't an big battery vs aero discussion either, because nobody is against aero improvments, just doubtful about the implementation for this type of use. Its a discussion about large batteries to maximize the space already available on an enduro frame to make a long range explorer, for people that want that sort of thing. Personally I think anybody that doesn't ride the type of bike the battery is made for, on the type of terrain it's meant for, should just butt out, and start their own thread for bragging about their ideas, instead of shitting all over a guys post about a product that many obviously want to see brought to market. Especially a guy that says "you can keep your rocks and logs and singletracks"... and then wants to brag about his setup that can't do any of those things.

It's not like the OP started out with "I want to drive at 60 all day on icy pavement on my gnarly high air drag bike for looks... so I made a giant battery.. cool right?"
He's taken a bike whose whole raison d'etre is to be ridden offroad, but still be capable of some high speed bursts for fun, and made a product people want, judging by majority of the responses.. When you're riding in the dirt and mud, on heavy durable wheels, and normal trail speeds theres not a lot of aero gains to be had to begin with, and to build cheap effective fairings that survive even minor crashes isn't really possible. Corroplast is going to blow apart with impacts... not like just moving air around on the road where it doesn't hit anything solid. I'm all for improvements... that are based in reality. If he's riding 20 miles on the road for 1 mile of trail.. sure, get some fairings. But to cripple the off road capabilities for a short pavement section to get to the trails is not a trade off that off road users are going to make. Gman made the point himself.. his biggest improvements were from the underside, and the tail wake, neither of which can have much done to them on an offroad two wheeler. A few dollars of flat plastic isn't going to get you an extra 30 miles on any kind of normal trail ride on a crashworthy long travel enduro bike with heavy moto wheels.

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 11, 2017 10:30 am

For a little perspective regarding on road vs offroad aero development over the last 50 years..
70s aero.jpg
70s aero.jpg (9.31 KiB) Viewed 849 times
2017 fairing.jpg
2017 fairing.jpg (8.94 KiB) Viewed 849 times
1970 mx.jpg
1970 mx.jpg (11.58 KiB) Viewed 849 times
2017 mx.jpg
2017 mx.jpg (12.45 KiB) Viewed 849 times
There's reasons why one hasn't changed much despite giant factory budgets.
Last edited by Voltron on Oct 11, 2017 11:12 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 11, 2017 10:32 am

Tell me, doesn't it bother you not to have something to show for? B/c those personal attacks towards me clearly shows you have nothing to show for, so move on dude. And grow up, stop insulting others, doesn't solve the problem, DEAL WITH IT... or what? are you going to cry, or perhaps try punch me in the face? B/c you obviously sound like you want to punch me in the face, don't you? I never insulted you, but you? not so much. Grow up man, just because someone is more opinionated and stubborn about something than you doesn't mean you have to insult them.

G.


Voltron wrote:Just gotta say in my book Gman, anybody that actually uses the phrase pearls before swine is a giant asshole. As the implied swine in your comment... frock (and thats ES spelling it that way.. I used the traditional spelling) you and the trike you rolled in on. Anyone that uses phrases like that, and "people like you" as soon as you see things a different way isn't looking for a good discussion... he's just a dick.

This isn't an big battery vs aero discussion either, because nobody is against aero improvments, just doubtful about the implementation for this type of use. Its a discussion about large batteries to maximize the space already available on an enduro frame to make a long range explorer, for people that want that sort of thing. Personally I think anybody that doesn't ride the type of bike the battery is made for, on the type of terrain it's meant for, should just butt out, and start their own thread for bragging about their ideas, instead of shitting all over a guys post about a product that many obviously want to see brought to market. Especially a guy that says "you can keep your rocks and logs and singletracks"... and then wants to brag about his setup that can't do any of those things.

It's not like the OP started out with "I want to drive at 60 all day on icy pavement on my gnarly high air drag bike for looks... so I made a giant battery.. cool right?"
He's taken a bike whose whole raison d'etre is to be ridden offroad, but still be capable of some high speed bursts for fun, and made a product people want, judging by majority of the responses.. When you're riding in the dirt and mud, on heavy durable wheels, and normal trail speeds theres not a lot of aero gains to be had to begin with, and to build cheap effective fairings that survive even minor crashes isn't really possible. Corroplast is going to blow apart with impacts... not like just moving air around on the road where it doesn't hit anything solid. I'm all for improvements... that are based in reality. If he's riding 20 miles on the road for 1 mile of trail.. sure, get some fairings. But to cripple the off road capabilities for a short pavement section to get to the trails is not a trade off that off road users are going to make. Gman made the point himself.. his biggest improvements were from the underside, and the tail wake, neither of which can have much done to them on an offroad two wheeler. A few dollars of flat plastic isn't going to get you an extra 30 miles on any kind of normal trail ride on a crashworthy long travel enduro bike with heavy moto wheels.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 11, 2017 10:46 am

Sorry Gman, you're the only one who hasn't shown anything, namely a single successful off road fairing.


As for being insulting,,,,

"someone decides to come along and start claiming that something is not possible..., when I see that, I switch into this mode of why bother sharing, feeling like I am casting pearls before swine"

"if it was up ppl like with your attitude planes would still look like the Wright's flyer"

According to you people with my attitude are swine incapable of grasping your pearls who wanted things to stop advancing at the Wright Flyer! lol!

I can passively decide someone is a dick without being angry or threatening violence. Or using lot of caps! LOL. Someone like you inspires in me more feeling of laughing than punching, and I find back handed insults more cowardly than in your face ones somehow, and I was being pretty nice about trikes and aero before the swine thing.

And talk about straying off topic... not a single response to any of the points raised, just a lot of anger about being unappreciated as an aero god!

Well, with that said... I'm out on this one..until its time for battery shopping anyway :D

p.s....and unless you come back with something that actually works offroad Gman.. you're just wasting space too.

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 11, 2017 11:23 am

Given the way you reacted to these comments then perhaps there is some truth to them. Grow up. You see, every comment you've made since your first one in this matter has been aimed to discredit me b/c one reason or another. And I don't want to show you, in particular, anything, period; well, except maybe a middle finger for you to go suck on.

G.

Voltron wrote:Sorry Gman, you're the only one who hasn't shown anything, namely a single successful off road fairing.


As for being insulting,,,,

"someone decides to come along and start claiming that something is not possible..., when I see that, I switch into this mode of why bother sharing, feeling like I am casting pearls before swine"

"if it was up ppl like with your attitude planes would still look like the Wright's flyer"

According to you people with my attitude are swine who wanted things to stop advancing at the Wright Flyer! lol!

And I can passively decide someone is a dick without being angry or threatening violence. Or using lot of caps! LOL. Someone like you inspires in me more feeling of laughing than punching.

And talk about straying off topic... not a single response to any of the points raised, just a lot of anger about being unappreciated as an aero god!

And with that said... I'm out on this one..until its time for battery shopping anyway :D

p.s....and unless you come back with something that actually works offroad Gman.. you're just wasting space too.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 11, 2017 11:35 am

Wow.. that descent in childishness was fast and pitiful. You should really pm me with more on point gems like that and not clutter up this thread anymore.

And me thinking your stance that off road fairings are more useful than a big battery is really impractical isn't trying to discredit you.. but it's pretty obvious your stubbornness and opinionatedness ( your words ) makes you see differing opinions as an attack.

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 11, 2017 12:20 pm

Voltron wrote:Wow.. that descent in childishness was fast and pitiful. You should really pm me with more on point gems like that and not clutter up this thread anymore.

And me thinking your stance that off road fairings are more useful than a big battery is really impractical isn't trying to discredit you.. but it's pretty obvious your stubbornness and opinionatedness ( your words ) makes you see differing opinions as an attack.
No, your stance or different opinions are not an attack; however, the way you crafted your responses selectively targeting things like what my aero trike can't do just to prove a point that is simply put, not true; thus perpetuating the false belief that aero doesn't matter at 20 mph... I think the numbers I showed before we went on this childish outbreak were pretty obvious.

The fact is that the OP could make that 5.1 kWh pack last a lot longer (as stated by ToeCutter) with some minor tweaks, and not a body shell around it as you seem to think, b/c lets face it just like the battery brute force approach, the aero shell is the obvious aero brute force solution; its easy to add a giant shell around something to improve aero... but there are things out there that are far from being "aero looking" yet are actually very aero... road cycling for example, those guys don't use any fairing at all, and nothing looks less aero than a guy sitting a top of an upright bike... yet those road bikes/riders achieve a CdA of probably what, 0.45 or 0.4? if not lower, completely unfaired, vs the OP's eBike estimated CdA of 0.76-0.8 based on his Wh/mile numbers @ 35 mph; the average car on the road today has an average of 0.29-0.30 CdA, if not lower. A reduction from 0.76 down to 0.6 CdA will have huge implications on range, again, you still live at your home, and there are roads you need to take to get to the trails.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig


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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 11, 2017 12:41 pm

Powervelocity.com wrote:Let's put it that way: improving aero was my next step after boosting the battery capacity. I don't mind going 150 or 200 miles per charge and keep my mind open for anything that works.
And brute force usually works!
Thanks.

And yeah, I agree, brute force always works, and if it doesn't its just because you didn't use enough brute force. :)

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 11, 2017 12:47 pm

"No, your stance or different opinions are not an attack; however, the way you crafted your responses selectively targeting things like what my aero trike can't do just to prove a point "

Again.. thats how you see it. But if you go back and read, I just pointed out the mods that have been successful on your trike don't work in rugged off road conditions. There's been no anti trike sentiment, even though you kept tediously circling the conversation back to that.. Two others of us that own and ride electric trikes voiced support for them except the special case of rugged off road conditions.
It seemed to me more about your refusal to accept that there is one particular area, namely rugged off road riding that aero treatments are of low benefit, given the lower average speed, the effect on handling, the crash worthiness, the drag of the heavy moto wheels being more of the total drag, the buildup of mud ect. I just don't see minor tweeks producing large gains.

If it was so easy to achieve, with just a few dollars of flat plastic panels, surely someone in the last 50 years could have actually done it?

Re road travel... Luckily here in California depending on your area, a few miles of road riding leads to hundreds of miles of backcountry trails... so the road portion of the range equation is minimal.

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 11, 2017 1:08 pm

Re road riders on bikes... they don't use a fairng because its against the UCI rules, due handling and crashing issues. They also have a non UCI categories when more extreme aero treatments are allowed..
aero.jpg
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