100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by John in CR » Jun 23, 2017 11:59 pm

They run higher voltage so current doesn't get too high that it becomes overly difficult to handle for the power they want. Higher current affects everything from wire gauge to the controller components and layout. Look at the difficulties Arlo1 has encountered building a controller for the extreme current he's pushing.

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Powervelocity.com » Jun 26, 2017 1:05 am

Yes, with ebikes being EVs, same concepts apply.
John in CR wrote:They run higher voltage so current doesn't get too high that it becomes overly difficult to handle for the power they want. Higher current affects everything from wire gauge to the controller components and layout. Look at the difficulties Arlo1 has encountered building a controller for the extreme current he's pushing.

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Re: 100+ miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh bat, 20kw capable

Post by e-biker » Aug 02, 2017 7:18 pm

Chalo wrote:If it's for getting Sisyphus-style exercise-- sure, whatever. But most things like this are meant for abusing access and regulatory privileges extended to actual bicyclists, privileges that are both hard-won and constantly under attack.

It would be easier to welcome this kind of high power e-bike if it had a license plate and a valid registration sticker on it as a show of commitment.
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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 07, 2017 12:38 am

Wow..., clicked your link on the Powervelocity thread and saw this...

Ladies and gentleman, introducing the new and improved brute force approach... "if your battery doesn't last very long is because... you don't have enough capacity!!" :mrgreen: hahaha, enter the ginormous 5.1 kWh... and 60Wh/mile at 35 mph cruise?? holy smokes... that is just horrible man... 5.1kWh @ 35 Wh/mile only yields 85 miles at best... 15 miles short of 100 miles... Also, how much does the bike weight? 130 lbs? Because you not only created a lead sled, you also created an aerodynamic lead sled brick... now I think you need to run with super low tire pressure too, so the rolling resistance ups the Wh/mile up to the 100s like some other folk here in E-S... LMAO, so, what do you use for heat dissipation, nitrogen cooling?

So, why not put all that effort in a Velomobile or a trike? or something that is more aerodynamic for real long range with the added bonus of some hooligan driving?

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 07, 2017 12:41 am

John in CR wrote:They run higher voltage so current doesn't get too high that it becomes overly difficult to handle for the power they want. Higher current affects everything from wire gauge to the controller components and layout. Look at the difficulties Arlo1 has encountered building a controller for the extreme current he's pushing.
For the average guy running 20A savings are just a few watts; also, the length matters just as much as the AWG you run, so a short run of 12AWG will be preferable to a long run of 10AWG. Calculators online allow you to see the wiring loss and determine if you need to run AWG6 or you can just get by with AWG12...

Running very high voltage has other issues, like getting electrocuted... that is something to keep in mind too.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 07, 2017 11:09 am

So, why not put all that effort in a Velomobile or a trike? or something that is more aerodynamic for real long range with the added bonus of some hooligan driving?

G.[/quote]

One can't ride a velomobile or trike on 75 miles of backcountry single track is a reason that comes to mind for doing it on a two wheeler.

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 07, 2017 1:41 pm

Voltron wrote:So, why not put all that effort in a Velomobile or a trike? or something that is more aerodynamic for real long range with the added bonus of some hooligan driving?

G.
One can't ride a velomobile or trike on 75 miles of backcountry single track is a reason that comes to mind for doing it on a two wheeler.[/quote]

Fair enough, but making something more aerodynamic will take advantage of the large pack, not just pushing the air around...
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 07, 2017 6:38 pm

There's only but so much aero package one can put on a bike that is doing single track and jumps. I don't think anyone is arguing its the perfect platform for sustained high speed pavement runs... but to have a bike that can go off road for long ways and take some minor crashes without blowing up a fairing, but still able to do a sprint up to 60 for fun on a straight bit of road sort of requires a certain amount of the brute force approach.

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by ElectricGod » Oct 07, 2017 7:12 pm

This is cool for all the reasons mentioned.

Brute force has it's place as does aerodynamics and efficiency.
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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 08, 2017 3:26 am

Voltron wrote:There's only but so much aero package one can put on a bike that is doing single track and jumps. I don't think anyone is arguing its the perfect platform for sustained high speed pavement runs... but to have a bike that can go off road for long ways and take some minor crashes without blowing up a fairing, but still able to do a sprint up to 60 for fun on a straight bit of road sort of requires a certain amount of the brute force approach.
That is why improving aerodynamics is not a brute force approach, its much harder to do than the brute force.

So, who is talking about just a sprint up to 60? What about cruising at 60... b/c with that giant 5.1 kWh pack my half-velo trike would also run ~80 miles, except at 60 mph average speed. No brute force approach is ever going to buy you that... well, unless you're made of gold, of course... :)

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 08, 2017 4:35 am

That all sounds great, and its obvious you love your setup.... but how is it on jumps and rock crossings?

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 08, 2017 5:11 am

Voltron wrote:That all sounds great, and its obvious you love your setup.... but how is it on jumps and rock crossings?
Yup, of course it sounds great, its great; I love my setup, and brute force (as in $$$$$) wasn't required to achieve it either. I've done jumps, those were a little scary b/c I've only jumped a couple of times on low ramps at "low speed", and my trike in particular doesn't have a rear suspension; but a full suspended trike could easily do jumps, if cars ca do jumps, so can trikes, its all about the suspension... Rocks, I guess you found the only thing at which my trike would suck... as opposed to sucking at everything else, that's fine... but while my trike doesn't have the front suspension travel long enough to go over crazy rocks and terrain, I am certain it could be done too.

I wouldn't dare to ride that thing on icy roads for commuting like I do every winter... I also have a 3kW eBike, and running spiked tires didn't make a difference, one day, without any warning, the front wheel wiped out... wham, bam, alakhazam... there was a broken rib.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 08, 2017 5:18 am

The moral of the story is that if you want longer range, improving the aerodynamics is a much cheaper and effective route; you don't need to build/buy a giant 5.1 kWh ($$$$) pack to get any decent range.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 08, 2017 5:59 am

That might be the moral you see... but you keep minimizing the point that this is optimized for long offroad back country trips, not for icy pavement commuting.

Its just hard for me to picture having much fun on a trike on trails like these, and California in particular has hundreds and hundreds of miles of connected backcoutry trails like these.
trail.jpg
trail.jpg (15.69 KiB) Viewed 887 times
rocks.jpg
rocks.jpg (15.57 KiB) Viewed 887 times
switchbacks.jpg
switchbacks.jpg (12.11 KiB) Viewed 887 times

The moral I saw was that people have different ideas about what makes for a great setup,depending on their planned usage, and that there is no one right answer as to "the perfect ebike (or trike).

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 08, 2017 1:58 pm

Voltron wrote:That might be the moral you see... but you keep minimizing the point that this is optimized for long offroad back country trips, not for icy pavement commuting.

Its just hard for me to picture having much fun on a trike on trails like these, and California in particular has hundreds and hundreds of miles of connected backcoutry trails like these.
trail.jpg
rocks.jpg
switchbacks.jpg

The moral I saw was that people have different ideas about what makes for a great setup,depending on their planned usage, and that there is no one right answer as to "the perfect ebike (or trike).
Yeah, and I think that is the problem, you don't believe it to be possible. But the truth is I've gone through rough terrain like that here in Wisconsin, obviously at a considerable lower speed than when I commute (daily round year), but I've done it just fine. The trike isn't much wider than my shoulders, and about the same width as my eBike's MTB handlebar, and probably yours; the only bicycles I own that are much narrower than my trike are my carbon road bikes... so, just because it has three wheels doesn't mean it can't ride on rough terrain. It is actually pretty fun to ride terrain like that, without fear of falling too!! you have to be conscious of the rocks and other things just like you would on a two wheeled vehicle.

Here is a video of a trike going around exactly that kind of terrain described in the pictures... that trike has less suspension travel at the front than mine, does but does have a rear suspension which would be important asset to ride terrain like that; that one is not even e-powered. Stick a 6kW motor like I have, and fun is served... on a much more aero-friendly package.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2bkexHmKSc
Speaking of 6kW, now here is a full suspended air-shock e-trike with some stupid amount of power and range...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ftc1KUPUM0
and another one where they modified the trike to be a quad with full rear suspension...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlNDAH7jHCY

And here are the two of my trikes doing some off road as well, at night while carrying our dogs on our laps...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewJbwL_nPlo skip to minute 14 to see some offroad.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 08, 2017 4:08 pm

I don't want to hijack this thread or anything, and I'm starting to get it that your default position is trikes are great for everything and everything else sucks. I'm not denying you can bump along at a walking pace on some carefully picked trails, but I personally would miss too much all the weaving back and forth, the putting your legs into the jumps, and the ability to wheelie up over an obstacle instead of getting out and carrying a trike over , plus having all the weeds and dust in the face etc. to do a trike off road.

I'm possibly biased, but maybe others will chime in about which one looks more fun..

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 08, 2017 11:34 pm

Voltron wrote:I don't want to hijack this thread or anything, and I'm starting to get it that your default position is trikes are great for everything and everything else sucks. I'm not denying you can bump along at a walking pace on some carefully picked trails, but I personally would miss too much all the weaving back and forth, the putting your legs into the jumps, and the ability to wheelie up over an obstacle instead of getting out and carrying a trike over , plus having all the weeds and dust in the face etc. to do a trike off road.

I'm possibly biased, but maybe others will chime in about which one looks more fun..
The thread title reads 100+ miles of fun per charge, mentions range anxiety... but based on the numbers he provided the real figure is more like 85 miles at the speed he claims, out of a giant 5.1 kWh battery; and a 60Wh/mile is a pretty dismal figure, you might find it normal, but hey, this would be the same as some guy who drives ginormous Hummer 1 (a pretty decent offroad vehicle), rated in gallons to the mile, decides to tow a giant gas tank and claim his vehicle can now run 900 miles on a fill... sure, of course... that is fine; but I wouldn't tout that as a long range solution, which is what this thread seems to be doing. Again, the OP sunk a wadload of money to achieve something, nothing wrong with that, but the same result could've been done with minimal aero tweaks and half the capacity (less weight too); emphasis in "minimal", as you don't need to run a fully faired eBike to get any decent aero improvements, but that is what separates the brute force from the non-brute force solution, the non-brute force approach is usually not very obvious.

If I had the same eBike on that video, I simply couldn't do any of those stunts. So, don't confuse skill with vehicle capabilities, the same way I couldn't race the same exact Formula One as someone like Fernando Alonso could... it takes a lot of skill to do something like that on the video, not a 20kW eBike, the same guy could do that on a 100 dollar Walmart bicycle as well; point is if someone were to put the hours on a trike, or any other vehicle, as demonstrated in YT by the fearless human mind, I am more than certain it could be done as well, if it hasn't already. That same eBike video with me at the handlebars will be a 3 minute crash compilation... definitively not fun, well maybe for the guy who is watching the video...

No, trikes aren't best for everything, don't put words in my mouth... but I think you underestimate what trikes, or quads, can do.

I yet have to get out from my seat to push my trike over any terrain I've rode on, and believe me, I've driven my trike close to 8000 miles already, and counting, on all weather conditions imaginable from -20F to 98F, in torrential rain, blizzards, frozen rain, fog, rocks, rough terrain, icy roads, you name it; nothing has ever prevented me from getting to my destination, and I've never had the weeds up in my face either.

I bet those who shall chime in will agree that this can be pretty fun as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqdeZMUZo9k BTW, the kids at the wheel are 13 years old, so don't expect the Monaco Grand Prix, but you get the idea.

G.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 09, 2017 11:11 am

"Rocks, I guess you found the only thing at which my trike would suck... as opposed to sucking at everything else, that's fine... but while my trike doesn't have the front suspension travel long enough to go over crazy rocks and terrain, I am certain it could be done too."

Nobody is putting words in your mouth... but pretty clearly there you say non trikes suck at everything else besides rocks, and trikes could do those to... you know, if they wanted to. :?

You keep saying how aero tweeks and a trike are better solutions than a big battery. But when you want to ride fast off road your ideas don't work. And comparing a guy who wants a bike you can actually go back country exploring on without worrying about getting lost and going farther than planned, and having plenty of battery reserve left, to a gas guzzing Hummer driver is just stupid.

What kind of fairing are you visualizing for an off road bike, that is light enough, strong enough to withstand crashes, small enough to not impede rider mobilty, but effective enough to actually increase range much at normal offroad speeds?

I'm really not bashing trikes or quads, and I have an electric trike with suspension and enjoy it on pavement... but they just don't seem very fun off road to me, although I could see their usefulness for somebody with terrible balance or a petrifying fear of falling or something.

And that vid shows not even what I would call stunting... thats just normal mountain biking these days. It was more about trying to visualize a trike, maybe not driven by you but by some hotshot trike driver, actually going at any kind of decent speed over uneven terrain .Have you really never had to get out to go over something? That just seems unbelievable... do they not have any fallen trees across trails or big rock stairsteps where you ride? Because I usually have to carry over some of those on a high ground clearance full suspension bike. How do you do it on a trike?



I've yet to see a trike where you can kick the back end up off the ground like that. I tried looking for good trike log crossing vids but somehow couldn't find any.

I'm willing to say aero high efficiency trikes are fun in the right circiumstances... ready to do the same about unfaired off road utility ebikes with a giant battery for long exploring rides?

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by ElectricGod » Oct 09, 2017 12:52 pm

It depends on what you want. A trike just isn't going to be of any use on narrow trails. It also won't go over logs and large rocks. That's the pervue of a mountain bike type layout which also has poorer aerodynamics. So both have their place. For mountain biking, I will always want 2 wheels since so many trails have a very narrow space for your tires. I've ridden trails that my handle bars had no problem fitting through, but the actual trail was 4-5" wide. A trike won't go there at all. In this scenario the mountain bike is the machine of choice. Being on top of the machine allows you to hop over obstacles and with the fairly high center, goes over large protrusions. Riding in snow or ice or just plain roads, It's not the best choice. Then the trike comes into its own and will win since it is low to the ground, much more aerodynamic. Still, sitting in a laid back position means you can't hop curbs or pop up the wheels to get over obstacles. Which then do you want? Efficiency or capability to get over stuff? Both machines have their benefits and draw backs.
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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 09, 2017 1:04 pm

Exactly so...

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 09, 2017 1:55 pm

This is not a trikes vs bikes matter, this is an aero vs brute force discussion so lets keep things focused and inline with the thread of a 5.1kWh pack used to achieve long range. Here I've shown that good aero can also achieve the same results, and at two orders of magnitude less cost.

The reason why I used a trike is after a crash over a black ice patch and broken ribs I chose not to continue investing on eBikes b/c they are not safe for high speed operation on icy roads for a commuter. A black ice patch is a sudden wipeout, and there is nothing you can do about it. The point is that just like I built the aero on my trike, I could've done the same thing on my eBike, so-capable of going over logs and rocks..., and then what? Still would be able to outpeform the 20kW eBike with just 1/2 the power, using 1/2 the capacity, about 1/2 the weight and 1/2 of the CdA; so while both eBikes would be on par up to 10 mph, after that, the superior aero will always win, and cutting the CdA in half means you range at high speed will double.

You can hop wheels on a trike, you just need to know how to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm9P7eaTZvA

G.
Voltron wrote:"Rocks, I guess you found the only thing at which my trike would suck... as opposed to sucking at everything else, that's fine... but while my trike doesn't have the front suspension travel long enough to go over crazy rocks and terrain, I am certain it could be done too."

Nobody is putting words in your mouth... but pretty clearly there you say non trikes suck at everything else besides rocks, and trikes could do those to... you know, if they wanted to. :?

You keep saying how aero tweeks and a trike are better solutions than a big battery. But when you want to ride fast off road your ideas don't work. And comparing a guy who wants a bike you can actually go back country exploring on without worrying about getting lost and going farther than planned, and having plenty of battery reserve left, to a gas guzzing Hummer driver is just stupid.

What kind of fairing are you visualizing for an off road bike, that is light enough, strong enough to withstand crashes, small enough to not impede rider mobilty, but effective enough to actually increase range much at normal offroad speeds?

I'm really not bashing trikes or quads, and I have an electric trike with suspension and enjoy it on pavement... but they just don't seem very fun off road to me, although I could see their usefulness for somebody with terrible balance or a petrifying fear of falling or something.

And that vid shows not even what I would call stunting... thats just normal mountain biking these days. It was more about trying to visualize a trike, maybe not driven by you but by some hotshot trike driver, actually going at any kind of decent speed over uneven terrain .Have you really never had to get out to go over something? That just seems unbelievable... do they not have any fallen trees across trails or big rock stairsteps where you ride? Because I usually have to carry over some of those on a high ground clearance full suspension bike. How do you do it on a trike?



I've yet to see a trike where you can kick the back end up off the ground like that. I tried looking for good trike log crossing vids but somehow couldn't find any.

I'm willing to say aero high efficiency trikes are fun in the right circiumstances... ready to do the same about unfaired off road utility ebikes with a giant battery for long exploring rides?
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Powervelocity.com » Oct 09, 2017 1:55 pm

Good discussion, guys. Everyone is right in his own way, I guess. Bikes and trikes/quads are technically different classes of vehicles with their own advantages and disadvantages - pick what's more important to you for your specific situation. No size fits it all.

I lean to bikes because of my pattern of use and set priorities. They provide better visibility and maneuverability on the road. I just feel safer sitting higher, seeing and being seen better by drivers. Yes, there is a penalty in terms of inefficiencies due to sub-optimal aerodynamics of a bike (just about any bike out there) but it works for what I am using it for almost daily.

Regarding whether 100 mile of range is possible or not at usable speed. I consider 35 mph a usable/practical speed. Yes, you can be more efficient at 20 mph but that's not practical for what I use the bike for: commuting 30 miles daily, for example. I would like to get to work and back using the same or less amount of time as driving a car. That's where 35 mph comes as a practical speed for city riding (in the US, at least) with occasional bursts up to 45-50 mph where speed limit permits. The total average speed, of course, as we know is likely to be 20 mph a best in a city with traffic lights, etc. taken into account.

At 35 mph normal cruising, my bike of 350 lbs gross weight (150 bike + 200 rider) will average 50Wh/mile. This will of course vary depending on headwind, temperature, etc. but I think it's a good reference value to use for calculations. With some pedaling, I can push consumption into 40's or, conversely, to 60-70's if I do lots of traffic light launches. The moral is that 100 miles per charge is achievable on a bike even with all of its imperfect aerodynamics. Can we do better on a trike sitting much lower to the ground? Sure, we can. Should we? It depends.

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 09, 2017 2:19 pm

Thats who I was hoping to hear real numbers from. :)



And it's def not a trike vs bike thing. I own both and have fun on both. But Gman... there was no hopping going on in that vid (which you can put right into the post btw with the youtube tags on the posting page) ... but it was some fun tilting. It still didn't look like it would do a log crossing... and thats coming from a guy that enjoys a trike now and then too...esp if there's black ice!

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by gman1971 » Oct 09, 2017 2:57 pm

50+Wh/mile @ 35mph average while better than 60, is still a dismal number.

I also cruise at 35 mph around here, except I do it at mid 20s Wh/mile with no pedaling and minimal cooling required. Also that means the batteries will also last a lot longer too, b/c you won't have to recharge them every day or twice a day. Li-Ion packs don't hold voltage under load as well after 100 cycles, and after 200 they start to sag pretty good, and at ~500 cycles the pack is pretty much useless for any high power demanding application unless its fully charged, and forget when it is -20F outside... low temp plus high cycle count = useless battery.

Again, as a commuter, regardless of what it is, bike, trike, quad, 18wheeler, having good aero always pays dividends, its a win-win situation; and we are all forgetting another important aspect that a lot of people care about, which is staying legal: with good aero you can achieve higher speed and stay legal; which technically a 20kW eBike or a 6.5kW eTrike aren't, and more so in places like the EU.

Again, if you have the cash to bruteforce your way, so be it, but an eBike can also have good aerodynamics, see MotoGP bikes.

G.

Powervelocity.com wrote:Good discussion, guys. Everyone is right in his own way, I guess. Bikes and trikes/quads are technically different classes of vehicles with their own advantages and disadvantages - pick what's more important to you for your specific situation. No size fits it all.

I lean to bikes because of my pattern of use and set priorities. They provide better visibility and maneuverability on the road. I just feel safer sitting higher, seeing and being seen better by drivers. Yes, there is a penalty in terms of inefficiencies due to sub-optimal aerodynamics of a bike (just about any bike out there) but it works for what I am using it for almost daily.

Regarding whether 100 mile of range is possible or not at usable speed. I consider 35 mph a usable/practical speed. Yes, you can be more efficient at 20 mph but that's not practical for what I use the bike for: commuting 30 miles daily, for example. I would like to get to work and back using the same or less amount of time as driving a car. That's where 35 mph comes as a practical speed for city riding (in the US, at least) with occasional bursts up to 45-50 mph where speed limit permits. The total average speed, of course, as we know is likely to be 20 mph a best in a city with traffic lights, etc. taken into account.

At 35 mph normal cruising, my bike of 350 lbs gross weight (150 bike + 200 rider) will average 50Wh/mile. This will of course vary depending on headwind, temperature, etc. but I think it's a good reference value to use for calculations. With some pedaling, I can push consumption into 40's or, conversely, to 60-70's if I do lots of traffic light launches. The moral is that 100 miles per charge is achievable on a bike even with all of its imperfect aerodynamics. Can we do better on a trike sitting much lower to the ground? Sure, we can. Should we? It depends.
I am all about high-speed, low-drag, mid-drives and gears...
A-1B trike, 6+kW, 65+mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFC8MRwvgUM
A-2A trike 3kW, 50mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNoqp0wl6Vo
eB-1C bike 3kW, 42mph (Cyclone powered): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_weSmz_h3Ig

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Re: 100+ Miles of Fun per Charge: 5.1kWh batt, 20kw capable

Post by Voltron » Oct 09, 2017 3:57 pm

And how well does GP bike do off road? You keep mentioning aero... But never addressing how it would actually be possible or effective on a trail bike built around a 35 mph average...
And no matter how great your wh/m are... most anybody riding off road prefers the mobility benefits of an unfaired two wheeler vs ultra efficiency... But to each their own of course.

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