Freeride Ebike QS205 22s10p sabvoton 72150 unlocked

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martinmertik
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Freeride Ebike QS205 22s10p sabvoton 72150 unlocked

Post by martinmertik » Oct 11, 2017 10:36 am

Hi ES members!
My name is Martin and I'm from Slovenia and this is my e-bike.

Parts:
Frame: Commencal Furious 2008
Brakes: Juicy disc brakes
Front/rear suspension: rockshox/fox
Tires: front 22" and rear 18" Sava MC2 tires
Motor: QS205 4T
Freewheel: 18tooth
Controller: subvoton 72150 UNLOCKED
Battery: 220cell 22s10p Samsung 25r capable of 200A continuous
BMS: 30s 320A set to 22s BMS
Display: Cycle analyst V3
Throttle: Domino Twist throttle
Charger: Not sure yet

So what I've done so far:
All previously mentioned parts were already ordered and I will recieve them till the end of this month.
Dropouts were already 150mm wide so I only needed to modify the holes so that the motor fits in just fine.

Controller is unlocked so it means that DC current can reach 200A and phase current 350A. When battery fully charged (4.18V a cell) the voltage will be 92V so the power should be crazy considering that the bike will weight only 40KG.

Controller doesn't come with Cycle analyst connector so I will have to modify my controller also. I can't wait to start putting my bike together. Reply if you want me to update you with pictures during the process of the build.
Last edited by martinmertik on Dec 07, 2017 3:37 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: 20KW LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike

Post by Drunkskunk » Oct 11, 2017 4:56 pm

Sounds awesome. Post some picks!

About those Juicys, you might want to consider something else. They are fine for a normal bike, but you're building a motorcycle, and the Juicy can't handle the heat buildup of stopping a heavy beast from the kinds of speeds 20,000w with get you up to.

I found my brakes on my 15,000 watt monster get hot enough to have blistered the paint off my first caliper, a BB7. Had it been a Juicy, I would have boiled the fluid at that temp, and lost all braking.

An alternative would be one of the 4 piston Magura MT5 brake sets. they have a larger pad surface for longer wear and lower fade, and a larger surface so they will run at lower temps.
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Re: 20KW LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike

Post by Voltron » Oct 12, 2017 1:26 am

The Shimano setups with the cooling fins on the pads and the rotors are nice too...

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Re: 20KW LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike

Post by martinmertik » Oct 13, 2017 6:40 am

Thanks to both of you for these advices. I will change my braking system when the bike is complete.
Here are some pictures:
Image

Image

Image

As you can see from the picture I have another problem. Axle is relatively short because dropout arms are so thick. Only slimmer metal nut that comes with the motor fits on, I hope it will be enough for that power. You also get torque arms with the motor but they also don't fit becasue of the dropouts. Any reccomendations?
Image

Firstly I planned for 17" rear rim. So yesterday I played a little bit with rear tire and I have put on the rim from my moped on the bike, it's actually 16" and it looks too small, also the ground clearance is an issue. I'm worried that 17" rim is not to make a big difference, so now I plan to change rear rim for 18" rim. BTW front rim is 26" at the moment. I have 4T motor and the biggest rim that I can use is 18" or I will kill the efficiency.
Image
Last edited by martinmertik on Oct 18, 2017 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 20KW LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike

Post by Voltron » Oct 13, 2017 10:56 am

As much as I love the look of the bike and the power plans, you have a tough conversion there... by picking a thru axle type frame and converting it, you're going to have serious difficultly fitting torque arms, which are going to absolutely be required to not rip the cut open dropouts apart.

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Re: 20KW LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike

Post by martinmertik » Oct 13, 2017 11:29 am

Maybe I can solve them if I cnc torque arms that are half as thick as original torque arms and then install them. Dropouts are really strong, one of the strongest on any bike. It should be strong enough :) As a last option I can make my own dropouts and weld them to the bike.

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Re: 20KW LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike

Post by Voltron » Oct 13, 2017 11:51 am

Hoping that works for you.. but without a clampng dropouts, at those power levels you'll be struggling to keep the axle from spinning, esp if you plan on using regen, which really gets the axle rocking around and wallowing out the softer aluminum, even when the dropout is strong.
clamp1.jpg
clamp1.jpg (48.87 KiB) Viewed 2354 times

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Re: 20KW LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike

Post by martinmertik » Oct 13, 2017 1:43 pm

I plan on using regen.. Looks like I'm in big trouble.
I will solve this out somehow haha

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Re: 20KW LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike

Post by Voltron » Oct 15, 2017 2:38 pm

Maybe a combo of thinning the dropout just a little to get something like this on, that engages into the recess by the dropout. Then the axle nuts won't be as important... this one is aluminum, but for your power goals and regen maybe steel is better, or a steel insert into an aluminum body or something.
ta right.jpg
ta right.jpg (175.68 KiB) Viewed 2244 times
ta install.jpg
ta install.jpg (20.52 KiB) Viewed 2244 times
Not this exact shape of course, but contoured to fit your dropouts...

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Re: 20KW LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike

Post by Ohbse » Oct 15, 2017 4:12 pm

You need 10mm of hard steel that clamps to the axle on both sides. Anything less will be destroyed I can assure you. Might last for a few rides, but will let go and break a lot in the process, including perhaps your face. Best not to skimp!

Cool bike, cool build - but definitely isn't going to be 20kw of power. It really annoys me when people state entirely unrealistic power figures - it leads others into chasing those un-achievable figures which usually ends in heartbreak. With the pack you've described and the unlocked sabvoton running 200a battery you'll be hitting 14.8-15.4kw of power into the hub, depending on how good your battery construction is. 20kw is not going to be possible with a 205mm motor, that controller or that battery pack. I wouldn't be disappointed though, 15kw on a bike like this with a 10kg pack is a lot of fun. Main limiting factor will be keeping the front tire on the ground.

Unless you're seriously fat or an unbelievably skilled rider with a death wish, I suspect you'll run it at 10-12kw peak most of the time.

Seconded regarding the brakes - those are going to be very inadequate. 205mm disks on the front, something with four pistons and big pads at a minimum. Shimano Saint/Zee are great, Magura MT5 are also great. Hope are excellent, but pricey.

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Re: 20KW LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike

Post by martinmertik » Oct 16, 2017 5:46 am

First of all thank you guys for your help.
Regarding the dropouts, the best solution would probably be to cut of swingarm and them weld on custom droupouts. I will have a word with local guy that does this kind of work.

About the brakes, I know that a change is necessary but I will wait until bike isn't working.
I also found the perfect BMS for my battery pack and I ordered it. Now I'm not sure about gauge (AWG) of silicone cable for battery pack. Also I don't know yet which connectors to use. What should I do. I also need a cable for BMS terminals.
Another question, which Circuit braker should I use, two C63 in parallel?

So the plan was that for a start I will use sabvoton controller and 200A battery.
For the future I would like to try out ferrofluid and hubsinks, to use kelly controller, upgrade phase wires and so on but that's another story.. So this bike should eventually have around 20KW. I'm not fat but I had motorbikes before :)
Last edited by martinmertik on Oct 18, 2017 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 20KW LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike

Post by martinmertik » Oct 18, 2017 9:38 am

I got my Samsung 25r cells today.
Image

My setup is going to be in two identical battery packs. One is going to be on the left and other on the ride side of the bike.
So 11s 10p on one side and 11s 10p on other. Combined 22s 10p battery pack.

Image

I also ordered 30s 320A capable BMS. Do you have any suggestions how to connect those packs together?

Image
Am I right about connection right?

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Re: 20KW LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike

Post by Joachim » Oct 18, 2017 11:29 am

30S BMS??? you need 22S i think :wink:
S P conenction way looks good

First make good parallel connections and make the series heavy please!best not to spotweld....some big copper wire wil wurk.

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Re: 20KW LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike

Post by martinmertik » Oct 18, 2017 12:19 pm

Joachim wrote:30S BMS??? you need 22S i think :wink:
BMS can be used also as 22s. I like it because it's future proof. I bought nickel and I planned on spot welding the batteries. Okay if that's not okay I will solder fat copper wire.

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Re: 20KW LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike

Post by Joachim » Oct 18, 2017 2:02 pm

So the bms can be set for 22s? yes 200A you need real good serie connections,thats the way to go when you want to have a strong battery.

btw 20KW...will be more like 15KW :?:

please first check the nickel...must be real 95% nickel.sand paper and water wil wurk to check

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Re: 20KW LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike

Post by martinmertik » Oct 18, 2017 3:20 pm

Joachim wrote:So the bms can be set for 22s? yes 200A you need real good serie connections,thats the way to go when you want to have a strong battery.

btw 20KW...will be more like 15KW :?:

please first check the nickel...must be real 95% nickel.sand paper and water wil wurk to check
BMS is set to 22s yes.
Fully charged battery pack should have around 92V with 200A controller is 18.400W . I will eventually change a controller for more powerfull kelly.

Nickel is 99.7% 6mm width and 0.15mm thick.

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Re: 20KW LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike

Post by John in CR » Oct 20, 2017 7:48 am

martinmertik wrote:
Joachim wrote:So the bms can be set for 22s? yes 200A you need real good serie connections,thats the way to go when you want to have a strong battery.

btw 20KW...will be more like 15KW :?:

please first check the nickel...must be real 95% nickel.sand paper and water wil wurk to check
BMS is set to 22s yes.
Fully charged battery pack should have around 92V with 200A controller is 18.400W . I will eventually change a controller for more powerfull kelly.

Nickel is 99.7% 6mm width and 0.15mm thick.
No, it's not 18,400 , because it's impossible to draw 200A at 92V even from a freshly charged pack. When predicting max power input of a high power rig the most reasonable way is to multiply nominal battery voltage by max battery current, because you have to account for voltage sag.

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Re: LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike-QS205 22s10p subvoton 72150

Post by martinmertik » Oct 20, 2017 5:47 pm

Okay I didn't know that. Thank you for explanation

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Re: LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike-QS205 22s10p subvoton 72150

Post by litespeed » Oct 20, 2017 9:41 pm

On nickel strips you want 20 to 25 mm wide .15 mm thick strips... best way to flow amps....you can also solder copper in the center of the strips for even more current flow.

Like this,

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Re: LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike-QS205 22s10p subvoton 72150

Post by martinmertik » Oct 21, 2017 2:02 am

litespeed wrote:On nickel strips you want 20 to 25 mm wide .15 mm thick strips... best way to flow amps....you can also solder copper in the center of the strips for even more current flow.

Like this,

Tom
So this method that you have applied wouldn't work for me. My battery is in that plastic case so the nickel wouldn't be flat with the battery.
My best option is to solder a thick copper wire to my bat pack??
How should I solder that wire? I think that this is not okay, or is it?

Image

I'm also wondering how you connected those 3 packs together in one big pack? I assume that you have 3 so you can fit them on your bike.

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Re: LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike-QS205 22s10p subvoton 72150

Post by litespeed » Oct 21, 2017 7:58 am

That is what I do not like about those cell holders....they make use use little pieces which turns into many, many additional spot weld connections. Packs like madden started and I followed in have way less pieces which means fewer resistance points = more power out of the pack. Also much cleaner design and easier to find issues should any arise.

You can solder copper on top of the nickel in between the cells....not over the top of the ends. I made 3 separate packs because I started charging with my R/C chargers when I started and it charges 8s so I made 3--8s packs. Also easier to build, install and service as 3 smaller packs. I use XT150 connectors to connect all 3 together. I have/use an Adaptto now and modified the pack to 20s.....one was converted to 4s.

Looks like a great build.

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Re: LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike-QS205 22s10p subvoton 72150

Post by Matador » Oct 21, 2017 9:04 am

martinmertik wrote:
litespeed wrote:On nickel strips you want 20 to 25 mm wide .15 mm thick strips... best way to flow amps....you can also solder copper in the center of the strips for even more current flow.

Like this,

Tom
So this method that you have applied wouldn't work for me. My battery is in that plastic case so the nickel wouldn't be flat with the battery.
My best option is to solder a thick copper wire to my bat pack??
How should I solder that wire? I think that this is not okay, or is it?

Image

I'm also wondering how you connected those 3 packs together in one big pack? I assume that you have 3 so you can fit them on your bike.
On your scheme, I see only one series connection (line) between each 10P groups. Passing 200A through one single connection is going to be a major screaming flaw in this design (that single connection between each 3.6V 25Ah 1S10P grouop will not be enough to support 200A.... its will probably turn red hot iron in 50 milliseconds before bursting into sparks).

I would spread the 200A load, have not 0ne, but 10 series connection between each 1S10P groups....
So each cell of each 1P group connects to each cells of the next 1P group. That way you have 20A flowing in each series connection x 10 = 200A.
20A, if you use good copper will not overheat.
20A if you use bare nickel can be a problem and overheat, unless you use very thick (but tought to weld to cells) or very wide strips like the above example.
20A if you use the very ubiquitous nickel plated steel that 95% of ebay seller falsly claim to be real nickel will just melts, potentially damage your cells and/or cause a fire.

Fitting small nickel strip with only 1 series connection between each P-groups is like trying to extract high perfomance from a GSX1300R Hayabusa motorcycle only fitted with a 50cc moped carburator... Not gonna happen even if you have racing fuel and the best motor. You need a good system to inject that fuel... Same for battery current.

For the range of power you want, I would have choosen my battery arrangement first (knowing I want 10 series connections between each 1P groups), only then find a battery casing that fits around it, not the other way around.
The battery layout you have drawn if on of the worst configuration possible for hight powers....

Please check this very important thread before building your battery : https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... k+mistakes
Battery is no jokes, it`s the single most important part of the ebike and it`s expensive. You can always fix it later on .... that is, when your precious cells have already sustained damage from heat overbuilding and have become unbalanced and now each have different internal resistances ...

Matador

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Re: LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike-QS205 22s10p subvoton 72150

Post by martinmertik » Oct 26, 2017 3:02 am

Matador wrote: I would spread the 200A load, have not 0ne, but 10 series connection between each 1S10P groups....
So each cell of each 1P group connects to each cells of the next 1P group. That way you have 20A flowing in each series connection x 10 = 200A.
20A, if you use good copper will not overheat.
20A if you use bare nickel can be a problem and overheat, unless you use very thick (but tought to weld to cells) or very wide strips like the above example.
20A if you use the very ubiquitous nickel plated steel that 95% of ebay seller falsly claim to be real nickel will just melts, potentially damage your cells and/or cause a fire.
Matador
I had a work thing and I couldn't even reply.
I understand you why I should connect batteries like you said, for better current sharing. I just didn't understand you how to connect it.
If you have the time to draw it or modify the photo I will be so thankful.

Thanks to all you guys, this forum rocks :)

ps. I got my domino throttle
Image

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Re: 20KW LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike

Post by liveforphysics » Oct 26, 2017 4:35 am

John in CR wrote:
martinmertik wrote:
Joachim wrote:So the bms can be set for 22s? yes 200A you need real good serie connections,thats the way to go when you want to have a strong battery.

btw 20KW...will be more like 15KW :?:

please first check the nickel...must be real 95% nickel.sand paper and water wil wurk to check
BMS is set to 22s yes.
Fully charged battery pack should have around 92V with 200A controller is 18.400W . I will eventually change a controller for more powerfull kelly.

Nickel is 99.7% 6mm width and 0.15mm thick.
No, it's not 18,400 , because it's impossible to draw 200A at 92V even from a freshly charged pack. When predicting max power input of a high power rig the most reasonable way is to multiply nominal battery voltage by max battery current, because you have to account for voltage sag.

Nominal for design peak sag is an excellent rule id thumb for the calculation, but amazingly the true peak power comes in theory at 50%,but in practice due to ionic diffusion rates it has a saturation current that with many cells arrives sooner than the current at 50% sag. It also means thermally you're eating the same amount of power into heating the battery that you're feeding the controller to be propelling the vehicle. For these reasons, using sag to nominal from full SOC as a guideline for peak power tends to work out nicely.
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Re: LUDICROUS Freeride Ebike-QS205 22s10p subvoton 72150

Post by kdog » Oct 26, 2017 7:27 am

Use .2mm Ni minimum thickness.
Rearrange your pack to double the depth ( rows 10 deep)so you have 10 series connects rather than the 5 you have now.
8x.2mm Ni can take about 8-10 amps continuously and 15 for short periods. More than that heats it up quick smart. At 20A it gets hot, 30A very very hot , 50 dull red glow, >60a it's bright red hot.
I suspect you'll need to solder copper strip/wire over the top, also learn up on current sharing, and look at how to attach your power leads.
Being split is also going to raise the complexity. Do some more homework before you start.

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