(Was) Honda Civic Hybrid goes 100,000 miles with no problems

[fechter]

I agree that rebuilding old packs is extremely time consuming and hard to get good long term results. It's my only option right now, as I can't afford a set of new sticks. I wish I could find a cheaper source for replacement sticks. I have the grid charger covered though, so I should be able to counteract effects of uneven self-discharge.

Good news on the Civic MIMA project. It will be interesting to see if it can work.

[fechter]

The latest round of cell replacement seems to be working well after a month of driving. Based on testing several packs worth of cells, it seems the capacity measurement taken at 10A gives a fairly reliable indication of cell health.

My latest test procedure was as follows:
1. grid charge the pack at 300mA for about 24 hours to make sure all the cells are fully charged.
2. Run 2 charge/discharge cycles with the RC charger and record the discharge capacity from the last discharge. Charge and discharge current 10A. Higher current might be better.
3. Try to make a matched set of sticks that are all over 7,000 mAh.
4. Grid charge again to get full charge.

I was using a MuchMore Cell Master Platinum RC charger and 12v power supply. Of the sticks I tested, the lowest was around 3,800 and the highest was over 8,000 mAh. I think charging and discharging at relatively high rates will bring out the differences in good/bad sticks better as the voltage sag from high IR will cause the capacity measurement to be lower. When I was testing with the Cadex, there was not as much diffference between sticks due to charging and discharging at a lower current.

Anything over 7,000 is probably good. 6,000 to 7,000 is marginal, and anything below 6,000 is probably toast. I had quite a few that were around 7,200, so that seems to be a norm for good sticks.

I tried all kinds of impedance measurements and none of them really correlated to cell health. What did correlate was the voltage swing during a 10 second charge of 10A. Using a voltmeter with min/max measurement, I did a 10 second high rate charge and subtracted the min from the max to get a voltage swing number. This number seemed to correlate well to the capacity measurment, with a larger swing on the weaker sticks. If one wanted to come up with a 'quick and dirty' way of testing, this shows some promise.

[fechter]

Update:
Since the last pack rebuild, I've logged about 10k miles. The pack is still performing the same as when I installed it. It has not recalibrated once nor has it thrown any codes. I can tell the new IMA programming has significantly reduced the amount of assist and regen, but the overall gas mileage is pretty close to what it was new. I'm measuring a little over 40mpg on my hilly commute. I suspect the wimpier programming will help the pack last longer, so may be worth the hit in gas mileage at this point. I can buy a lot of gas for what a new pack would cost.

I'm considering doing a balance charge sometime soon just as a preventive measure, but I have no reason to think it really needs it.

[Toshi]

fechter, how many miles does your Civic Hybrid have on it now? My wife's and my parent's Prii have about 100,000 and 125,000 miles on them, respectively, and are still chugging along at 42-46 mpg day in, day out without anyone having ever cracked the pack to rebalance (let alone replace!) cells.

[fechter]

I have 144k miles now. My original pack started throwing codes around 120k.

[reagle]

My 07 HCHII has around 68k miles, and while it's not yet throwing any codes, I get the recalibrations daily, and mileage frankly sucks.
Fought with the dealers/Honda for a bit trying to get the pack replaced under warranty, they claim all is well.
I did manage to get them to print a screenshot from the diagnostic tool, and it shows IMA battery available capacity as 37%. The IMA light comes up around 10%. How's that for industry standard?!
Everybody else thinks battery is toast when it's down to 80% or so of original capacity, but not Honda.
Interestingly enough, the screenshot shows a few other parameters- Continuous and momentary power limits for assists and regeneration

On a related note,I"ve had conversations with a large battery supplier, who can produce replacement sticks , using any cells- including brand new Panasonic. Problem is, initial tooling costs money.

Does anybody know if Better battery sells just the sticks for DIY type people as opposed to complete packs and for how much?
Edit- never mind- they are $100 each , and make little sense as opposed to just getting a warranted pack from them

[fechter]

P1449 came on yesterday (146k miles). Bummer. I was hoping to get a little more out of the recycled pack, but no luck. I guess I'll have to start looking around for another pack.

[dnmun]

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[fechter]

P1449 is a deteriorated battery module, which can be triggered by several conditons, all which indicate one or more sticks is toast.

The pack I'm running now came out of a wrecked Insight of unknown history. Right now, pull outs from wrecks are about the only cheap source of cells. A new pack from Honda was around $2300 last time I checked. Aftermarket rebuilt pack from ReInvolt runs $1875.00 plus shipping. Another place called www.hybrid-battery.com recently went out of business and apparently ripped off a bunch of customers.

Building a pack from cells is nearly impossible as they are welded together into 6 cell sticks and there is not really any good source for suitable cells.

Determining the condition of a used pack is very difficult. I had to tear it down and test the 20 sticks individually. Even then, they didn't last very long. For sure, if a pack sits around for a long time without being used, the cells will self-discharge to the point where it won't work. This can be overcome by doing a balancing charge (constant current 350mA for about 24 hours).

[dnmun]

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[fechter]

350-400mA is low enough that the cells don't get excessively hot during extended charging, but it's best if the pack has some cooling. If the pack is removed from the car, it's no problem at that rate. This will ensure all the cells reach maximum charge and are as balanced as they can get.

Determining the health of the cells is much more challenging. There are several failure modes, but from my testing, the capacity of the cells at fairly high charge/discharge rates seems to be the best indicator. At 10A, the best sticks would deliver over 8,000mAhr.

Last time I looked around, used packs (of unknown health) went for around $800 from wrecking yards.

[Ykick]

Rebuilt $2k or new $2.5k? Easy for me to say but if they last 8 years and 100k miles if the car's still in good shape why not just go with new cells? $250-$312.50/yr doesn't seem too bad. $800 and you know they're old and unknown capacity sounds kinda risky to me.

[dnmun]

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[fechter]

The testing process is extremely time consuming (to do a good test). I tried coming up with faster measurments, but none of them seemed to be very reliable. If there was a way to slam the pack with 100A charge and discharge currents while measuring all the stick voltages, that would probably be good, but would require quite a tester.

I'd really like it if there was a source for new cell modules (sticks) that are OEM quality. I wonder where the Hybridbatteryrepair guy was getting his from since he went out of business. I know they were from China. Hmmm... maybe they didn't last and that's why he went under?

I hesitate to dump $2500 into a car with 150k miles on it. My luck and something else would fail.

[Ykick]

Repair or replace? CA cars often give me 300k or so without too much major mechanical work. The bodies always hold up well and it's not as if they operate in below freezing temperatures very often. But yeah, easy for me to say! Tough choice - although $2500 is probably about the sales tax of a new one...

[reagle]

The testing process is extremely time consuming (to do a good test). I tried coming up with faster measurments, but none of them seemed to be very reliable. If there was a way to slam the pack with 100A charge and discharge currents while measuring all the stick voltages, that would probably be good, but would require quite a tester.

I'd really like it if there was a source for new cell modules (sticks) that are OEM quality. I wonder where the Hybridbatteryrepair guy was getting his from since he went out of business. I know they were from China. Hmmm... maybe they didn't last and that's why he went under?

I hesitate to dump $2500 into a car with 150k miles on it. My luck and something else would fail.

I've been talking to a reputable battery company about tooling for those sticks.They can easily supply fresh Panasonic or any other cells cells, welded in whatever configuration we need them. Step #1 though is getting some samples to them so they can tell me what the NRE would be. Problem is- suddenly I can't find single sticks (even dead ones) to send them. Buying a full pack for that purpose is a bit too much, and yanking one from wife's car is not good idea either Are the HCH and HCHII sticks the same? And does anybody have the dead ones they could spare?

[dumbass]

I have an '06 Toyota Highlander hybrid (for those who don't know it, it's a mid sized SUV). It'shas around 45k miles on it now. It's basicly a big brother system to the Toyota Prius. It basicly gets about the same mileage weather local criving or on the highway. In it's prime it got 26 to almost 30mpg. I've noticed that it's been dropping though and is now dow to 24 to 26MPG. Still not bad for a mid sized SUV. When we first got it my wife was filling up with gas and a guy with a dupicate but non-highbrid ask about her gas mileage. She told him around 28MPG. He responded "holy C--p I only get 17 to 19MPG.

The Highlander highbrid has the same V6 engine as the standard model but with the addition of the electric motors (3...1 main motor and 2 smaller motors for the all wheel drive on the read tires). Like most (ALL) Toyotas we have had a handfull of recalls. But none of them were related to the highbrid system. We had to have a power window switch replaced when it was still new. Since then we have only done oil changed every 5k miles. For some reason it eats batteries though. I'm talking about the standard engine battery. It's now on it's third and if the car isn't used every few days the battery is dead. Must be something that is drawing high power or a short. It started this problem after it was out of the 36 month waranty (the highbrid system is a 10 year 100k mile waranty). The dealer said it could take several hours to find the problem (if they ever would) at $125 per hour. I told them screw it, I'd rather keep replacingthe battery. BTW, if the gas engine doesn't start the electric motor won't ether. Not even if it has a fully charged battery....Dumb!! Would be nice if you could at least get off the highway if the engine failed.

I noticed the e-motor will stay engaged and run with the gas engine a good part of the time. Even at highway speeds if the pack is fully charged.

Bob

[dnmun]

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[dumbass]

sounds like a diode in the alternator is leaking. the shop shoulda been able to diagnose that with no problems. you can check it too. or see if you can isolate the current draw by pulling fuses and measuring the current flowing through the fuse with your ammeter when the circuit has nothing active on it.

i am gonna bid on a 2005 civic hybrid in about 10 days. it is at the insurance auction with no body damage. wheels were stripped off and a small dent midway in the front drivers side fender.

so the car was totaled by the insurance company. no keys, no wheels, not gonna burn much gas that way either. hope i can get it for around $3k.

Yes, I agree but I'm to lazy to worry about it. And it's not as high a priority as my bikes and cycle. And the car is a no fun project. Good luck at the auction...... When my 2008 250 scooter was totaled last year hardly a scratch on it it sold at auction for only $275.

Bob

[Toshi]

Cheap solution for the Highlander Hybrid's 12V battery going flat: $22 battery tender. Here's the one I use on my motorcycle during bicycle-heavy weeks (formerly on my car, back when I had it, heh):

http://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-02 ... B000CITK8S

[dnmun]

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[fechter]

I've been talking to a reputable battery company about tooling for those sticks.They can easily supply fresh Panasonic or any other cells cells, welded in whatever configuration we need them. Step #1 though is getting some samples to them so they can tell me what the NRE would be. Problem is- suddenly I can't find single sticks (even dead ones) to send them. Buying a full pack for that purpose is a bit too much, and yanking one from wife's car is not good idea either Are the HCH and HCHII sticks the same? And does anybody have the dead ones they could spare?

Dang, I just recycled a big pile of dead sticks. I'm not 100% sure, but I think the HCH and HCHII sticks are the same, just a different number of them in the pack. Gen 1 Insight sticks are same as HCH. The sticks come with PTC temperature sensors on each cell, but these can be recycled from the donor pack.
The Honda sticks have very beefy interconnects between cells and special threaded 'nuts' on each end. Overall length would need to be within a fairly tight tolerance. The nut on one end is hexagonal, one on the other end is square (this prevents installing backwards).

[MitchJi]

Hi,

Cheap solution for the Highlander Hybrid's 12V battery going flat: $22 battery tender. Here's the one I use on my motorcycle during bicycle-heavy weeks (formerly on my car, back when I had it, heh):

Overkill.

I'd use one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/BATTERY-CUTOFF-SWITCH-BOAT-RACECAR/dp/B001HSBW74

BATTERY CUTOFF SWITCH CAR RV BOAT RACECAR ATV CUT OFF

Price: $7.76 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25.

[dumbass]

Hi,

Cheap solution for the Highlander Hybrid's 12V battery going flat: $22 battery tender. Here's the one I use on my motorcycle during bicycle-heavy weeks (formerly on my car, back when I had it, heh):

Overkill.

I'd use one of these:
http://www.amazon.com/BATTERY-CUTOFF-SWITCH-BOAT-RACECAR/dp/B001HSBW74

BATTERY CUTOFF SWITCH CAR RV BOAT RACECAR ATV CUT OFF

Price: $7.76 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shipping on orders over $25.

Thanks Mitch, I agree and I did think of doing something like that. The only problem is the wife has to remember to tell me she's not going to use that car for a few days. And of course I would be the one going out to turn it on/off for her. Pluse this is one of those cars that doesn't remember the radio settings if it looses power. I bought a trikle charger a while back for is so I may just wire it in and give her a plug hanging out the grill.

Thanks,

Bob

[TylerDurden]

Thanks Mitch, I agree and I did think of doing something like that. The only problem is the wife has to remember to tell me she's not going to use that car for a few days. And of course I would be the one going out to turn it on/off for her. Pluse this is one of those cars that doesn't remember the radio settings if it looses power. I bought a trikle charger a while back for is so I may just wire it in and give her a plug hanging out the grill.

Solar panel instead?