Nissan Leaf EV

[Toshi]

Some might be surprised to see it given the other vehicular thread that I started recently, but nevertheless I'm scheduled to test drive a Nissan Leaf this evening, after work.



Update: no drive for me. Tons of rain, not such a big deal except that my motorcycle decided to quit running while on the way to the site. Whoops.

[Ian]

Our organization got a leaf couple weeks ago, 3 yr lease. I have a few initial comments. it's really impressive. What has amazed me is its pulling power up steep hills, it doesn't miss a beat even with 4 people in the car. With the low center of gravity its really stable. It suits the kind of driving we do 90% of the time - 55mph roads, 20 to 50 mile trips. An important thing for us was supporting something that is a step in the right direction.

I'm not technical, it just works and does what it says, and you feel good driving one. It doesn't look that special, hardly anyone notices its an all electric. Maybe they planned it that way. Once you get back into an ice car, you realize what an out of date technology it is - a scam really.

So, the leaf is a real car, not some diy, all mod cons, refined, ultra smooth and quiet, bit like using an ipod versus a cassette tape player or turntable! Easy to drive - we have a 75 yr old lady driving it no problem. And she don't know anything about volts and amps, doesnt care, so just plug it in when you get back and wait for the beeping confirmation and don't set off unless you have a full 'tank'. You need a different mindset with the limited range. which route you're taking. And, what's your recharge time if you need it a few times a day like we do, with multiple drivers.

imo the more we support by getting one, then comes the next developments - power sources, charging stations, energy generation itself. If they do come up with the double range leaf in 2015, it would cover all our driving needs pretty much, we do need to get to Santa Rosa once every week or two and that's 60 or so hilly miles each way, so use the prius for that right now.

we are striving to get a solar array on the premises along with wind to charge the EV's from that, how cool to be able to charge the cars off grid!

Will post again in a month or two with more long-term observations plus anything interesting including problems that comes up. It's going to be heavily used. Until then, hope you get to drive one and best wishes to all!

[dnmun]

don't waste money on solar arrays until the charging network is built out. it is so important to get across the idea that private people not guvment need to build the charging stations for future EV drivers to use.

if it is a guvment project, it will be too expensive and stupid and not human. when i built the neighborhood EV charging spot here at my house, i did not have to spend very much more than it cost me for the concrete driveway aporon which i had to repair anyway. maybe $40 for the doubled looped length of 12-2 w G cable under the concrete, about 15' of 10 gauge was free off CL that i used for the other circuit. $30 for the plugs and weatherproof boxes(4 X $7.50 each).

i just ran the 6 gauge cable through the wall in my front room out to the service shut off for the charging spots on the driveway while i was replacing the windows in the front room because i had to tear down all the plaster wall anyway to replace the windows.

my concrete job cost me about $2k total (woulda been about $18k if i had contracted it out instead of doing it myself) including the $700 i spent buying tools, so the $2.18/ft for the 6-2 cable for 18 feet was peanuts. but it was so sweet of the woman at Home Depot to leave an extra foot of cable on each side of my measurement when she cut it. i thanked her, so 20' total from my service panel to the shut off panel for the charging plugs.

from that panel, i can get 50A at 240 into either of two circuits, 8 outlets on 4 bollards at the sides of the driveway apron. space for 6 EVs in my driveway and the parking strip section out to 5' into the street so the cars would be filling my driveway and one on the curb on each side of the apron but parked normally parallel to the curb. so a total of 8 EVs could be parked waiting for charging or on charger. around the clock. if everyone will do that then there will be places for people to charge, it won't have to be so hard. guvment has to get outa the way let people do it, not red flag them for building guerilla charging spots on the public right of way.

almost exactly one year to the day i poured my driveway apron last may 11th, the city did the neighborhood sidewalk warnings, making people repair their sidewalk. so when the guy saw my driveway and how it was so rad, he red flagged me, put the STOP WORK sign on a stake right next to my sidewalk. he staked it with the red flag april 29th, but did not tell me to cal him or remove it, just stop work, i have not heard from them since so i am hoping they won't bother me again since it has been this long already, or i will have to start spending money on lawyers and politicians.

[Toshi]

Nissan Leaf insights: http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/20 ... ights.html

(I'd have my own from test driving it except that I was stymied twice in the past month when trying to get to scheduled test drives. Gah.)

- 4k sold in US, 10k globally so far
- Mean income $140k and "well-educated" to boot
- 80% coming out of a Toyota Prius
- 30% using it as their one and only car (talk about true range anxiety!)
- Few cross-shopping it with the Chevy Volt

[Toshi]

This thread hasn't been bumped in a while... I'm going to take the opportunity to bring it to the top, as I may well be buying (or, more likely, leasing) a Leaf in a mere 15 months or so. The stars have aligned just so in order to bring this possibility about.

First off, my wife and I finally got to ogle (and ride in!) a Leaf firsthand this past weekend, at the NY auto show. As she has a Prius and I had previously test-driven a Chevy Volt, I knew that the car would be quiet and torquey at low speeds, yet I still emerged very impressed. Everything just felt right about the car, including the interior. (In contrast, the Mitsubishi iMiEV was laughable--tiny and really cheap-feeling. No desire whatsoever for that one from me.) Most significantly, my wife hopped out of the Leaf after our test-ride and said she wanted one.

The next big factor is that she and I will be moving back to Seattle from Long Island in June 2013. This is a huge deal for several reasons. First off is that we'll be able to afford a new car out in Seattle as we'll be living with my mother in law (in a house where we could install a charger). Second is that Seattle electricity is clean and cheap, with a $12/month option to completely offset one's electricity use with renewable energy credits. Third, The EV Project is giving away chargers to Seattle metro area residents with BEVs. Finally, the public charging infrastructure in Seattle is coming along nicely, with 74 charging stations in the metro area as of now, and surely more to come by next summer.

Put all of this together and there's a pretty decent chance that we'll have a blue Leaf SL, with the optional-for-2013 6.6 kW charger and leather seats, in my (mother-in-law's house's) driveway come July 2013...



For the truly curious, I explain each of the above thoughts in much more excruciating detail here, including citing sources for each of the claims (e.g., number of charging stations): https://plus.google.com/u/0/11547941490 ... e8ECsXcX2z . For those with elephant memories who recall my "3 ton SUV" thread and are wondering how to reconcile its arguments with these, fear not: If I ever decide I truly want a big SUV I'm still getting that Lexus tank. Seattle's not a place where I'd require one, though. I'll be commuting to work on my electric bike (refitted with a Nine Continents hub motor last year) or on the bus, and we'll still keep my wife's current Prius around so that I can use it to jet out to trailheads to go mountain biking or up to the ski mountains when shod with snow tires.

[dnmun]

i think you can drive the entire I5 now too on the fast chargers. i am 30 blocks off I5 here in portland and you can charge here for free on your way south. you can walk around the neighborhood and log on to my wifi or go to the sushi take out up the street.

[Toshi]

i think you can drive the entire I5 now too on the fast chargers. i am 30 blocks off I5 here in portland and you can charge here for free on your way south. you can walk around the neighborhood and log on to my wifi or go to the sushi take out up the street.

While it's good to know that it's possible, I still think we'd take the Prius if we were going down to Portland. Certainly we'd use the Leaf for all of our around-town duties. It'd even work if we have a kid or two in the near future, as planned/hoped for:

http://carseatblog.com/8364/the-nissan- ... ar-future/

[dnmun]

P Town> they are changing the name from 'portland town' to prius town''. seems about 10% already. 4 on my short block.

i am a real believer in the plug in hybrid transition phase which should last a long time. only seen one plug in prius on the highway though.

[Toshi]

P Town> they are changing the name from 'portland town' to prius town''. seems about 10% already. 4 on my short block.

i am a real believer in the plug in hybrid transition phase which should last a long time. only seen one plug in prius on the highway though.

Berkeley has the highest concentration of Prii per capita, iirc, but Portland and the #stuffwhitepeoplelike neighborhoods in Seattle are surely up there in the hunt, too.

I tried to get my wife interested in PHEVs before she decided she wanted to make the leaf, er, leap outright, but she felt the 20 km charge-depleting range of the Prius PHEV was too small to be worth the while, and the Volt is a packaging nightmare inside, imo. We like airy, open feeling cars, and the Volt is exactly the opposite of that. (So, too, is the iMiEV: dark and cramped.)

The Leaf, on the other hand, is cleaner, lighter (in interior color palette, not poundage), and has much more glass area. Win. Focus Electric would be a close second were it not for the modern-Ford-design center stack clutter.

[o00scorpion00o]

It's a pity the leaf costs 10,000 Dollars more here, it would sell far better and we need e.v's with 9.00 usd per u.s gallon!

We can't even lease it, and it would cost far more if we could!

The Renault Zoe will cost 16,500 Euro's and you rent the battery. The charger is 44kw capable and every charger is capable of 22kw here and being upgraded to 44 kw as we speak and will charge in 30 mins.

It has a very efficient heater too. I think 1 kw for 3 kw heating.

The ac fast chargers are much cheaper than the Leaf DC chargers!

I've no idea why Renault are not going to sell E.V's in North America ?

[Toshi]

i think you can drive the entire I5 now too on the fast chargers. i am 30 blocks off I5 here in portland and you can charge here for free on your way south. you can walk around the neighborhood and log on to my wifi or go to the sushi take out up the street.

More on this: http://westcoastgreenhighway.com/electrichighways.htm

My parents have a house in Coos Bay, just south of Florence. I could theoretically drive from Vancouver, BC to their house with a Leaf. It'd just take forever

Current plan: keep the (2006, 100k+ mile) Prius around indefinitely as an ICE backup. Leaf on lease in July 2013 for my wife to start, with me following in a year with another Leaf, or a BMW i3 or Infiniti LE if available. If we need a bigger vehicle for a day or a week we'll use Zipcar or a rental car service. Same goes for an SUV: if I want to play in Canyonlands Natl Park then I'll rent something while down there.

Is this the cheap way to go? Certainly not, what with two new car purchases or leases on top of keeping the Prius idle in the driveway. We are both psyched about the prospect, though, and ultimately that is what matters the most to me.

[Ian]

Hi Toshi

nice to notice this old thread, our nissan leaf is now at 10 months and 8,500 miles since my original post may 2011. what a great car! Zero problems to report! It has been cold at times in N California and we are at 2,700ft the only effect of colder weather has been a diminished range, how much I'm not sure as we mostly go 40 miles round trip tops anyways so it hasn't effected the practical day to day use at all. Got down to the last bar just a couple of times, but never to "crawl home" mode.

Performance wise it is still running just the same as new, plenty of power on tap for the average driver. Very safe and refined to drive, quiet and relaxing. A few more people noticing it's a leaf the past few months, but its very much under the radar as I mentioned before, it doesn't draw any attention to you.

Just watched revenge of the electric car the other day and it was cool to see the driving force behind the Leaf and why Nissan took the plunge first, and now all these models coming out.

few minor niggles:
could use a light either in the charger bay of the car or better yet on the charger plug itself.
the display always prompts you to press "ok" to send info to nissan. its a pain but maybe there's a setting to turn it off!?
the doors will lock themselves, i don't find it that smart

good luck and I hope you enjoy your leaf as much as we do!

[thepronghorn]

Well we're at 7 months 8500 miles and loving our Nissan Leaf. It is a third car in a three driver family, but it gets used the most since it costs the least to operate. I would agree on the charging port light because sometimes you come home when it's dark and you just end up stabbing around with the plug until it finally mates correctly. However, it's just a minor hassle, only takes a couple tries. The doors locking thing is fine, I don't think it'll let you leave the key in the car, and mostly it's just in case you forget to lock your car, which I do sometimes. I love its smoothness, it can creep along at 1 mph, or race all the way to 55 if need be without shifting or making any noise beyond a quiet whirrrrr. It's soooo efficient at around 40 mph just cruising along. Looking forward to putting in more miles in the next year.

We have been using the option to only charge to 80%, what do you other Leaf owners do? Sometimes I think this means that it does not get used as much as it could because it does not have the range for a longer trip that it might have been able to complete at 100% charge.

[veloman]

why can't you charge past 80%? That seems like a huge drawback on a car that already has its biggest issue of range.

[Toshi]

why can't you charge past 80%? That seems like a huge drawback on a car that already has its biggest issue of range.

You can. 80% maximizes longevity of the battery, though.

[veloman]

why can't you charge past 80%? That seems like a huge drawback on a car that already has its biggest issue of range.

You can. 80% maximizes longevity of the battery, though.

Well it makes sense to only charge to 80% if you KNOW you won't need the full range. I'll probably be doing that with my new ebike battery since it will have 17-20 mile range and I usually only use 6-10 miles at a time. I already keep it in the 50-70% range overnight whenever possible.

[Toshi]

2013 changes: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/1 ... e-or-less/

Time will tell whether these JDM changes make it in full to the (Smryna built?) USDM model.

Key changes include: 

- 10% more range, possibly by virtue of strengthened regenerative braking
- optional leather upholstery and a Bose stereo
- possibly most significantly, the substitution of a heat pump in place of a pure resistive heating element.

This last is important because the >1 coefficient of performance of a heat pump will halve or perhaps cut by two thirds heating loads and the resultant range loss. 

In any case, the outside appearance isn't changed. Here's the outside, in case you've been living under a rock, as well as the new interior leather:





Other notable vehicles in terms of HVAC: The PHEV Prius prototypes (but not the production model) also employed a heat pump, and the Volvo C30 EV prototypes employ a small biodiesel burner for auxiliary heat, of all things. Finally, the series 200 Land Cruiser and its Lexus cousin boast of the following:

In extreme cold situations, the Land Cruiser’s auxiliary Positive Temperature Coefficient (PTC) heater warms air instantly by passing it over an electrically heated ceramic element.

[ls7corvete]

All sounds like good news, Some summary (off the top of my head):
15% more range
10% lighter
Couple more cubic feet cargo space
Better HVAC
6,000$ USD cheaper (at least in Japan)

Built in Tennessee now too! Cant wait.

[LeftieBiker]

If they have completely replaced the resistive heating with a heat pump, that's going to be a real problem. Heat pumps can't extract usable amounts of heat from the atmosphere below about 45 degrees Fahrenheit. Hopefully they have instead used a heat pump with resistive heating available as needed, just like home heating systems that use heat pumps have. They still need to find a better way to get heat, though. I can think of two ways: capture heat from the braking system, and only use regenerative braking when heat isn't needed, or use a catalytic propane type heater. Since the battery pack overheating issues will limit demand in really hot climates, they need to avoid making the cars uncomfortable in cold climates as well!

BTW, Nissan is now offering leases that consist of $1999 down, $245 a month (all USD) and a 36 month lease length. That's a good deal for someone in a mild climate who doesn't need more than 60 miles or so real world range.

[Toshi]

BTW, Nissan is now offering leases that consist of $1999 down, $245 a month (all USD) and a 36 month lease length. That's a good deal for someone in a mild climate who doesn't need more than 60 miles or so real world range.

I've seen SV lease offers for $1,999 down, $199/month x 36 months... Too bad that trim doesn't have a backup camera. (Yes, I saw the thread where an engineer hacked one in. That wouldn't be a good idea on a leased car.)

[Jeremy Harris]

If they have completely replaced the resistive heating with a heat pump, that's going to be a real problem. Heat pumps can't extract usable amounts of heat from the atmosphere below about 45 degrees Fahrenheit.

Yes they can, no problem at all. Ask any Canadian or Scandinavian! I've been looking at heat pumps for my new house build, and although I've decided against an air source heat pump (as used in the Leaf) I did check the specs and prices for them. All the units I looked at worked down to -18 deg C or lower (that's around 0 deg F I think). The COP get's down to unity at that point, but pretty much anywhere above that (as long as you can efficiently deice the heat exchanger when its humid) you can get a COP of better than 1. Typically COP for an air source heat pump will be around 2 to 3 in normal use, maybe 4 at its best.

[whatever]

they are crazy not using iron phosphates, its a bomb waiting to go off

[LeftieBiker]

If they have completely replaced the resistive heating with a heat pump, that's going to be a real problem. Heat pumps can't extract usable amounts of heat from the atmosphere below about 45 degrees Fahrenheit.

Yes they can, no problem at all. Ask any Canadian or Scandinavian! I've been looking at heat pumps for my new house build, and although I've decided against an air source heat pump (as used in the Leaf) I did check the specs and prices for them. All the units I looked at worked down to -18 deg C or lower (that's around 0 deg F I think). The COP get's down to unity at that point, but pretty much anywhere above that (as long as you can efficiently deice the heat exchanger when its humid) you can get a COP of better than 1. Typically COP for an air source heat pump will be around 2 to 3 in normal use, maybe 4 at its best.

Did you read specifically that the heat is coming from the air at those temps? Because home heat pumps do provide heat in that range, but at the colder end it comes from built-in resistive heating elements, not the air. Maybe my knowledge is out of date, but I find it hard to believe that they can scavenge enough heat from the air at those temps...

[Toshi]

If they have completely replaced the resistive heating with a heat pump, that's going to be a real problem. Heat pumps can't extract usable amounts of heat from the atmosphere below about 45 degrees Fahrenheit.

Yes they can, no problem at all. Ask any Canadian or Scandinavian! I've been looking at heat pumps for my new house build, and although I've decided against an air source heat pump (as used in the Leaf) I did check the specs and prices for them. All the units I looked at worked down to -18 deg C or lower (that's around 0 deg F I think). The COP get's down to unity at that point, but pretty much anywhere above that (as long as you can efficiently deice the heat exchanger when its humid) you can get a COP of better than 1. Typically COP for an air source heat pump will be around 2 to 3 in normal use, maybe 4 at its best.

Did you read specifically that the heat is coming from the air at those temps? Because home heat pumps do provide heat in that range, but at the colder end it comes from built-in resistive heating elements, not the air. Maybe my knowledge is out of date, but I find it hard to believe that they can scavenge enough heat from the air at those temps...

Page 11 and 14: http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy11osti/52175.pdf . Still near rated capacity for heating, COP just under 2 at below 0 degrees F.

[Jeremy Harris]

Did you read specifically that the heat is coming from the air at those temps? Because home heat pumps do provide heat in that range, but at the colder end it comes from built-in resistive heating elements, not the air. Maybe my knowledge is out of date, but I find it hard to believe that they can scavenge enough heat from the air at those temps...

It's just physics. You can extract heat from air at any temperature right down to absolute zero (-273 deg C, -460 deg F) using a heat pump if you use a suitable heat transfer fluid. The -18 deg C limit for currently available heat pumps (including that in the Leaf) is solely a consequence of using a working fluid that is safe and doesn't damage the atmosphere if it escapes.

Our use of 0 deg C for freezing point, or 32 deg F, is just a consequence of us adopting an couple of oddball heat measurement systems. The point where air has no heat energy at all is 0 deg K, absolute zero. At any temperature above that there is useful heat that can be extracted by cooling the air down further. It makes no difference whether you drop air at 10 deg C to 0 deg C, or drop air at -30 deg C to -40 deg C, you will get the same amount of heat energy out of it.