RAISE THE GAS TAX !!!

safe

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Somehow I doubt anyone on this board would disagree that gasoline taxes need to be raised so as to encourage alternative energy concepts:

:arrow: The question is how to do it best?

Here's my plan...

Start by every month increasing the gasoline tax by 10 cents per gallon. Continue this until the overall price of gasoline at the pump gets to about $5 a gallon then ease off. If there is a sudden oil shock that places the economy at real risk then you might have to suspend part of the taxes so that the price hovers around $5 a gallon, but at no time once the price gets to $5 do you ever let it go below that level again. This will become the new "bottom line" and everyone will do their calculations based on this reasonably fixed number. As time goes on you incrementally increase the overall price above $5 to account for inflation and to add just a little more "pain", but not so much as to invoke an emotional reaction within the population that rises up to repeal the gas tax.

Once gasoline is at $5 a gallon it will be easy to replace what's out there now with alternatives like electric vehicles and within a decade or two the issue of gasoline would be history...
 
I think people would be in enough shock if the price was $3.00 or higher again. Right now, gas is about $1.95 for regular and everyone is starting to show some sign of "pheww", but if prices hit $3.00 or higher again, the more likely people will actually towards electric. Right now, SUV sales are at extreme low due to last year's high gas prices.

I agree, and at the same time, it hurts me as well. I gotta buy gas for long trips and would hate to pay high gas prices. But I'm willing to take the pain for the greater good which is get us off this oil (and environment destroying) addition. Not just the US, but all the other big countries around the world.
 
Somehow I doubt anyone on this board would disagree that gasoline taxes need to be raised

And you'd be wrong. Raising taxes already way too high is not the way as it leaves less money in the pockets of people to buy alternative fuel solutions.
Government becomes addicted to the extra gas tax revenue, providing it less reason to promote better alternatives, and more reason to increase subsidies to keep the addiction going.
Furthermore, propping up prices on one end with subsidies, and the other end with taxes, is the deadly policy governments employ to prop up other harmful industries such as tobacco.
The best thing government can do to taper off its' petroleum addiction and ours', is cut oil industry subsidies, cut gas taxes, fund more research, and generally promote sensible alternatives.

People will make the switch as competing, effective alternatives become affordable, and people have the money to.
 
I could get behind an 80 cent tax on a gallon of regular, provided the money went to green transportation...

20 cents/gal for a tax-rebate for users of public transportation
20 cents/gal for public transportation development grants
20 cents/gal for alternative energy research grants
20 cents/gal for bikeway development grants

At 140 billion gallons consumed annually in the US, the tax would generate 112 Billion dollars annually:

28 billion/yr. for a tax-rebate for users of public transportation
28 billion/yr. for public transportation development grants
28 billion/yr. for alternative energy research grants
28 billion/yr. for bikeway development grants

Last fall proved that high prices reduced consumption and consumer demand: even though the Prudhoe Bay was shut down and a war broke out in Lebannon, the price of crude dropped and prices a the pump dropped due to a lack of demand. People started combining trips and conserving fuel.

The same would happen with the above tax, but more revenue would go to green development and consumption would drop... the drop in consumption again would force the price of crude and gas down. Everybody wins in the end except OPEC and Big Oil.
 
xyster said:
Government becomes addicted to the extra gas tax revenue, providing it less reason to promote better alternatives, and more reason to increase subsidies to keep the addiction going.

Government will NEVER create new markets, that's just not anything that they are any good at. It's always private industry that creates new technologies. The main thing that the government can do is to "screw up" what has been a really good deal for energy which is gasoline. Taxes are a good way to destroy that industry.

Let's be honest...

Gasoline is hard to beat when there is a level playing field. There's almost no way to compete with gasoline if the market is allowed to sell it as it has been doing. That's the PROBLEM. :!:

Example:

When the oil companies long ago gained a monopoly the government realized that they held more power than they should and went about "destroying" the big oil company (Standard Oil I think) and creating a new market for smaller oil companies that were supposed to compete with each other. Much of this has reversed itself over the years with mergers, but the point is still valid... government does a VERY GOOD JOB at crippling or destroying things. If they could assist in the destruction of an oil based economy then it would be for the "public good". (it hurts the pocket, but maybe prevents a terrorist)

:arrow: Alternative energy is NEVER going to be cheaper than pumping oil out of the ground!

Governments main purpose is to destroy the bad so that the good can live... (that's their job... they don't create anything like the private sector does)


In Iran they say:

"Death to America"

...in America we "should" be saying:

"Death to Cheap Gas"
 
Don't worry, I'm sure the oil companies will find an excuse to jack up the price of gas soon enough. Over time, it has to go up. When the price hits a certain threshold, electric vehicles become much more economical. People will switch over in droves if it is major cost savings.
 
Hi

I would love to pay only 3 bucks a gallon, heck we wouldn't mind paying 6 dollars a gallon here in the UK equiv, we pay US equiv 10 dollars a gallon!!! it will come in time, we are not sat on any oil here in the UK so are at the mercy entirely of foreign oil and gas as well.

Its scary as EV use is very low here in the UK, I dont know what the tipping point would be in the states but i would bet it would be equally as high, you just cant get people out of their gas guzzlers.

I suspect if suddenly you all had to pay 7 dollars a gallon or so you would, its a bit like drugs or cigarettes, you can put the price as high as you like people will still buy them as they are addicted.

Its a shame but I'd bet its true?

Cheers

Knoxie
 
The only way to get people off gas is to show them that they CAN get off gas without alot of pain. The problem comes because there is pain getting off gas. Pain in that you have to build your own freaken battery packs or buy cobbled together packs instead of properly purpose designed packs. Pain in that there really aren't any companies that specialize in converting homes to off grid from top to bottom. you have to cobble the pieces together bit by bit. Pain in that the government is willing to subsidize the power company infrastructure(gas, coal, oil what be it) but they aren't willing to help offset the economic cost of going off grid.
 
Seems to me the oil exporting countries play a game...

They DON'T want people to be able to break the addiction of oil so they always keep the price below the level that alternatives could replace it.

They DO however create temporary "embargo's" that drive the oil price up for short periods so that they get a short term profit. They then allow the price to go down again so that no one has the ability to quit.

:arrow: So there is MANIPULATION going on to KEEP PEOPLE HOOKED.

The ONLY way to break this manipulation is to "manipulate" right back. You literally fight a philosophical "war" to counter the existing "war" of power over who controls a countries energy.

People need to develop a "spine"... a "will" to overcome adversity. Without the willingness to "fight" the power structures and relationships as they are, then no natural process will allow change to happen until the oil runs out in 20 years. Then all of a sudden the wells go dry (Peak Oil) and the panic to find alternatives will be a little late in happening.

The American consumer culture is based on the concept of "sheep" following the "herd". (fashion) The "sheep" have no "spine" or "will" to fight... and the (foreign) "wolves" have all the control. (foreign oil countries, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc...)

:idea: American oil companies are simply "middlemen" these days. They make a "markup" because they do the refining, but they don't control the price of oil because they don't own it initially. So people get "off track" when they focus on the "middleman" and don't realize it's the foreign country that controls the volumes they pump.
 
knoxie said:
Hi

I would love to pay only 3 bucks a gallon, heck we wouldn't mind paying 6 dollars a gallon here in the UK equiv, we pay US equiv 10 dollars a gallon!!! it will come in time, we are not sat on any oil here in the UK so are at the mercy entirely of foreign oil and gas as well.

Its scary as EV use is very low here in the UK, I dont know what the tipping point would be in the states but i would bet it would be equally as high, you just cant get people out of their gas guzzlers.

I suspect if suddenly you all had to pay 7 dollars a gallon or so you would, its a bit like drugs or cigarettes, you can put the price as high as you like people will still buy them as they are addicted.

Its a shame but I'd bet its true?

Cheers

Knoxie

Exactly right. There are plenty of places where fuel costs more than in the US, and that doesn't really deter people from driving. Higher taxes will just mean average families will make more sacrafices in other areas.

$10/gal fuel wouldn't bother me at all, especially since it would mean less traffic on the roads. :)
 
Why would anyone pay $10 a gallon for fuel if they could get the same performance out of an electric vehicle for much less?

:arrow: Are Europeans stupid or are the laws preventing change from happening?

(like that screwy law about motor size... them being around 200 Watts)
 
safe said:
Why would anyone pay $10 a gallon for fuel if they could get the same performance out of an electric vehicle for much less?

:arrow: Are Europeans stupid or are the laws preventing change from happening?

(like that screwy law about motor size... them being around 200 Watts)

Because you can't get 600+hp from an electric? Although if I could swap my 600hp turbo motor for an electric motor and batteries, with no weight penalty, I'd do it.
 
The Tesla has over a thousand horsepower... so I think you can pretty much do whatever you want to do with electric, the major hurdle is acceptance in the marketplace and the startup costs to get the whole thing going. The higher the price of gasoline the easier it becomes to get the whole process moving forward.

:arrow: Europe has no "excuse". At prices above $5 a gallon there's every reason to be using electric vehicles right now. (Americans are just naturally quicker to innovate than Europeans?)


sportscar.jpg
 
Prices in Europe has gone up gradually so the Lobsters haven't noticed. North America has been getting the electroshock treatment. At least that's my theory.
 
The Tesla has over a thousand horsepower...

The Tesla has about 250hp.
http://www.teslamotors.com/engineering/tech_specs.php
"Max net power 185kW"

Of course the motor only weights about 70lbs. So throw in three more and change the battery chemistry to one of the second generation lithium options, and there's your 1000hp.


http://www.teslamotors.com/performance/performance.php
 

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Lessss said:
Prices in Europe has gone up gradually so the Lobsters haven't noticed. North America has been getting the electroshock treatment. At least that's my theory.

Isn't that story supposed to be about frogs?

If you drop a frog into a pot of boiling water it will jump right out, but if you put it in while the water is cool and then boil it the frog will stay in the pot and die?

That European limit of 200-250 Watts for electric bikes is a real killer of innovation. And I was reading someplace that they are actually going to make things WORSE by writing into the law something about an automatic cut off if the pedals aren't in motion. They even banned completely electric vehicles without pedals.
 
xyster said:
The Tesla has about 250hp.

It's still fast... 0 - 60 in something like 4 seconds... (faster than most every other car)
 
safe said:
The Tesla has over a thousand horsepower... so I think you can pretty much do whatever you want to do with electric, the major hurdle is acceptance in the marketplace and the startup costs to get the whole thing going. The higher the price of gasoline the easier it becomes to get the whole process moving forward.

:arrow: Europe has no "excuse". At prices above $5 a gallon there's every reason to be using electric vehicles right now. (Americans are just naturally quicker to innovate than Europeans?)


sportscar.jpg

Ahem!!

Lotus! Tesla! erm!! Lotus is a British company!! so there!! ha ha

The UK and Europe are very inventive as much as anyone, the price of petrol has been creeping up over time, don't forget we all pay a lot more here than you guys do in the states for everything.. not just petrol.

At the end of the day you cant just go and Buy an electric car and get the same performance, its still cheaper when the cost of the actual car is taken in account to run a petrol car.

There have been loads of cost surveys done like this on here and other forums, its still cheaper to run petrol, also there is no infrastructure in place for electric.

I know calif ran it and the EV1 program was a great Idea but the oil men leaned on them and got it pulled, how innovative is that?

I would love it if the technology was cheaper and available, the big downer with all these electric cars is the battery replacement, that's a stinger that they don't tell people on the forecourts, they only ever mention the cost to charge, this isn't really fair or the true cost.

A power assist bike such as mine does make a difference as I really can cover the same average distance a year that most car drivers do and not have to pay road tax insurance mots etc etc, this is why power assist is a very good and economical way to travel.

The Lotus Tesla is a fantastic car and sign of things to come for sure but its price tag and the looming battery replacement mean its a darn sight more expensive to run than a hummer would be on your gas prices, a shame but true.

Cheers

Knoxie
 
safe said:
Lessss said:
Prices in Europe has gone up gradually so the Lobsters haven't noticed. North America has been getting the electroshock treatment. At least that's my theory.

Isn't that story supposed to be about frogs?

If you drop a frog into a pot of boiling water it will jump right out, but if you put it in while the water is cool and then boil it the frog will stay in the pot and die?

That European limit of 200-250 Watts for electric bikes is a real killer of innovation. And I was reading someplace that they are actually going to make things WORSE by writing into the law something about an automatic cut off if the pedals aren't in motion. They even banned completely electric vehicles without pedals.

Hi safe

This is just the law it has nothing to do with innovation at all, the laws are put in place rightly or wrongly and its what we have and what we stick with.

For a small country we have a great deal of history in innovation and engineering we are known around the world for it, I will agree some of the laws are ridiculous but then there are a whole bunch of laws in the US that are equally as ludicrous and they vary from state to state which confuses things even more!! ha ha.

You have to be very careful Safe about what you say as you can easily rub people up the wrong way on here as this board is read by people from all over the world and suggesting that people in Europe are not innovative may just upset a few people you know :roll:

We don't need to get in to a we designed this you designed that argument as it don't help and largely this point in motor power is irrelevant as most people on this board in the US and the UK run technically illegal rigs.

Dont forget safe if you ran your bike in to NY state it would be illegal, look what optibike had to go through to get racing last year, nightmare!

Lets not sling mud but ideas :)

Knoxie

8)
 
Sure enough, while it seems to be billed as an "American Car" the "know how" and even the manufacturing is from Europe. It's a nice car, but wouldn't someone have to buy a new (expensive) battery every three to four years? That's a problem if they aren't mass producing them yet. (though right now only the "rich and famous" could afford it anyway)

So Europe does seem involved in this "quest" as much as people here in America.
 
Idea that could help in a small way so far as driver fuel-use awareness and better gas mileage:
In new vehicles install a fuel rate consumption meter. And not some hard-to-see or use center console job like in the Prius, a nice round analog or digital dial right next to the ol' speedo.

Benefits:
-most drivers would appreciate the heads-up about how fast their money is burning.

-the feature shouldn't cost much, or be disagreeable to the auto industry.

-many drivers will subconsciously drive in a manner more efficient when real-time feedback is available, over time driving more efficiently without thinking about it at all.

-isn't some big-brother, performance-crippling governor.
 
capt.lmd10201301702.britain_parking_pollution_lmd102.jpg


British gas guzzlers to pay more to park

By COURTNEY FRENCH, Associated Press Writer
Tue Jan 30, 3:12 PM ET

LONDON - Residents of a London suburb will soon pay annual parking fees based on how much carbon dioxide their cars emit, penalizing owners of gas guzzlers. Officials in Richmond, west of the capital, agreed Monday to levy a sliding scale of charges based on emissions, meaning the biggest polluters will pay $590 a year for a permit to park on the street.


The charges, which will come into force in May, have sparked debate among environmental groups claiming a victory against pollution and car owners alleging unfair treatment."

"Climate change is the defining issue of our age... it is clear that we must all change our behavior to combat its effects," said Serge Lourie, leader of the Richmond Council. "For our council, this is just the first step in a long process that will see us bring forward policies to move our borough and council to lower carbon emissions."

Nine other councils, including one for central London, have expressed an interest in similar plans, Lourie said.

In Richmond, driveways and garages are rare, and most residents park on the street.

Cars with smaller engine sizes will receive a 50 percent discount on the current $195 cost of a parking permit. Cars with larger engines will have to pay higher prices.

Range Rover owner Sarah Adams, 35, who lives in Richmond, said her family shouldn't have to pay extra just because she drives a big car.

"It's really unfair we're being penalized to park them," she said. "I've got two kids and a dog, and it's a practical car for us."

Nigel Morris, 39, said drivers of big cars deserve to pay more. "They pollute the streets, and I think people use them as unnecessary status symbols," he said.

Other critics of the proposals agreed they were punitive measures that would hit the pockets of families and low-income groups.

Environmental groups supported the move and called for further measures. Emily Armistead of Greenpeace said it was a major step toward getting fuel-sapping vehicles off the road.

"We cannot continue to drive gas guzzlers," she said "They are absolutely unsustainable. I completely applaud measures that try to tax them off our roads."
 
The Government is always in the "pain business". The government cannot create anything, but they can destroy or redistribute things...
 
Strange but true.
I have such a readout on the dash of my Honda hybrid. It's too small, as you point out, but I watch it like a hawk. Not only has it helped me maximize my fuel economy on the hybrid, but the training also applies to driving other vehicles as well. When I drive my minivan, I can get substantially better gas mileage than when my wife drives it. Now if the van only had regen....

xyster said:
Idea that could help in a small way so far as driver fuel-use awareness and better gas mileage:
In new vehicles install a fuel rate consumption meter. And not some hard-to-see or use center console job like in the Prius, a nice round analog or digital dial right next to the ol' speedo.

Benefits:
-most drivers would appreciate the heads-up about how fast their money is burning.

-the feature shouldn't cost much, or be disagreeable to the auto industry.

-many drivers will subconsciously drive in a manner more efficient when real-time feedback is available, over time driving more efficiently without thinking about it at all.

-isn't some big-brother, performance-crippling governor.
 
In the late seventies some cars had an "economy" guage... it was basically a vacuum guage: higher vacuum at the carburator due to narrower throttle opening made the guage read higher on the economy scale. Dead-nuts simple.

(I personallly watch the boost/vacuum guage for my turbo, and use cruise-control whenever possible.)

Keep in mind, the energy you make by burning fuel is absorbed by wind and rolling resistance... but most is dissapated into heat by your brakes. Using your brakes is throwing gasoline into the wind.


:(
 
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