Toyota RAV4 EV

No, this is not about the old, 1st gen NiMH powered one. Instead it's about the new one that's supposedly coming out next year. (How many times have we heard that old saw, though? The Aptera should have been out 5 times/years already by my count. )





Supposedly it will be offered for sale, rather than as a lease-only deal as with the Mini E and electric BMW 1 series. As evident from press releases and from the gauge cluster above, Tesla will be supplying the innards, both for the demo vehicles such as the one in the photo and for $100M worth of vehicles as well. Sources: http://blog.caranddriver.com/toyota-confirms-electric-rav4-will-be-sold-to-general-public-scion-iq-ev-to-fleets-in-2012/
and http://green.autoblog.com/2011/07/20/tesla-scores-100-million-toyota-rav4-ev-related-contract/

Unfortunately, actual technical information available on the new vehicle is, uh, scarce. Useless a better term, perhaps? See for yourself:

http://www.toyota.com/esq/articles/2010/rav4_ev_demonstration_vehicle.html?type=Topics&title=RAV4%20EV%20Demonstration%20Program&url=/esq/topics/2010/rav4_ev_demonstration_program.html

PERFORMANCE/SPECS

Mechanical:

Powerful electric motor with Lithium-ion (Li-ion) battery pack
Zero emission vehicle (ZEV)
Class-leading driving range, acceleration, and top speed
Real world driving range of approximately 100 miles

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Yes! A "powerful electric motor"! "Class-leading" performance! :x

Anyway, some of you who read this may well be wondering why I'm bothering posting about it, as I've made clear in another recent thread that I'm strongly considering a 14 mpg body on frame ICE SUV, albeit one also made by the very same Toyota Motor Corporation, as my next vehicle.

The answer is that I'm married, my wife has definitely not lost her "clean vehicle" religion, and we could definitely get on with one limited range BEV with an ICE/PHEV/HEV as a backup for longer trips. She was eyeing a Nissan Leaf to eventually replace her 90,000+ mile 2nd gen Toyota Prius, but the Leaf's cramped 31.1" rear legroom is a bit of a deal killer. Assuming we have children in the next few years, 31.1" won't work that well for rear-facing car seats in the back seat. The RAV4 EV's promised 38.3" rear legroom would be much more accommodating, and as a freshly christened non-zealot I'm willing to trade 50-100 extra Wh/mile in energy consumption for a bigger, roomier, safer vehicle with the same range.

Another plus for the RAV4 that's an issue for me-of-long-torso-and-big-head, but probably not an issue for most people: although I wouldn't have much reason to be in the back seat regularly, the 37.3" of rear headroom in the Leaf would have my hair solidly against the headliner. The RAV4's 39.7" would be much more comfortable. Context for 37.3": A modern MX-5 Miata has 37.0" of headroom, and the top of the windshield frame on those cars is solidly and annoyingly in my field of view, at about the visual height of speed limit signs across an intersection, if that makes any sense.

Looks perfect, if you can get your hands on one. Maybe you can get another couple years out of the prius till then?

Definitely get it about the headroom. I had a Subaru wagon, and constantly bashed my head trying to get in, couldn't use the visors because they blocked all my view etc. Same problem with an accord. Then I got the Subaru forester. Ahhhh. Headroom like an F 150. And no more forgetting once a month and whacking my head on the roof getting into the car.

dogman said:

Looks perfect, if you can get your hands on one. Maybe you can get another couple years out of the prius till then?

Definitely get it about the headroom. I had a Subaru wagon, and constantly bashed my head trying to get in, couldn't use the visors because they blocked all my view etc. Same problem with an accord. Then I got the Subaru forester. Ahhhh. Headroom like an F 150. And no more forgetting once a month and whacking my head on the roof getting into the car.

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We're counting on getting a couple of more years out of the Prius, for sure! (or at least out of the Fit, our other car that racks up miles very slowly as I prefer the motorcycle.) I won't be done with residency until 2013, and fellowship in 2014, so we must make do with what we have until then. As my mother has 125k+ miles on her near identical '06 Prius and I've seen many a report of Prii with even more miles, it shouldn't be an issue barring calamity, in which case we have insurance and airbags.

I totally sympathize with regard to the sun visors deal in cars with less-than-ample headroom. Of all the cars I've owned, my Mazda RX-8 was actually the best thought-out in this regard. Sure, it had very little headroom to begin with, but the sun visors had little holes in them! One could peer through the holes while awaiting a green light instead of trying to angle one's head to see through the gap between the visor and the A-pillar or other such ridiculousness…

Note holes, not just there for speed! heh

That's cool with the visors. I found a 2 or 3 inch strip of dark tint across the windshield top helped a lot. Nowdays many cars come that way of course.
Never found a permanent solution to the monthly head bleeding though. Always did it when distracted by something or other. Pretty girl in the grocery store parking lot, WHAM did it again dammit.

Step aside, Nissan Leaf: A usurper has taken your place in my oft-changed vehicular plans, just as I predicted a month ago. May I present the 2013 Toyota RAV4 EV, just introduced formally by Toyota at EVS26.









Key stats:

- 38.3" rear legroom, assuming 2012 dimensions, which is ample for rear-facing child seats
- 41.8 kWh of Tesla lithium-ion batteries powering a similarly Tesla-sourced 115 kW electric motor, good for 0-60 in 7 seconds and 100 miles of range
- 9.6 kW Level 2 charger, which implies that charging from empty will take 4.5 hours
- Available for outright sale (!) to the public in "late summer 2012", assuming one lives in Sacramento, Bay Area, LA, or San Diego
- 2600 to be built over a 3 year run, which would more than double Tesla's cumulative car output

One can clearly see that it's simply much larger in every measure than the 31.1" legroom, 24 kWh battery, 80 kW motor, 3.3 (2012-earlier)/6.6 (2013-onward) kW charger Leaf. There is a price for this largeness, of course, and that'd be a 4100 lb curb weight, a $49.8k price tag before applicable tax credits, and higher per-mile energy consumption.

The upside is that $49.8k is "only" $12k more than the price of a Leaf SL. The other huge upside is that Toyota named a price at all, indicating that this is not going to be a lease-only model. This in turn implies continued factory support at least at some level, as opposed to prior lease-only EVs' fate of being relegated to the crusher at the end of the lease term.

If I'm lucky then Toyota will expand sales to the Seattle metro region by the time my wife and I move out there (summer 2013). If not, then we will fly down to Cali, buy one in the Bay Area, and truck it back home, Consumer Reports-style. It will happen--or some subsequent version of my ever-evolving plans will, at least…

Time to back of napkin it.

Assumptions:

- Average gas price over the next 6 years of $4 in today's dollars, which I personally feel is very conservative.
- Average electricity price of $0.10/kWh, also conservative and higher than the current Seattle City Light rates that range between 4.7 and 9.8 cents/kWh, iirc.
- 12k miles/year for each, even though that might be practically challenging to achieve in the EV due to the range.
- V6 4WD RAV4 Limited with navi/Entune as the relatively feature- and performance-matched gas contender, which gets 22 mpg combined and costs $29.9k before destination as described
- Single trim EV model, which costs $49.8k before destination and uses about 0.440 kWh/mile (based off of published Leaf efficiency * scaling factor of 1.2 for weight)
- An EV buyer with an adjusted gross income sufficient to qualify for the full $7,500 Federal tax credit ($55k for a married couple filing jointly), and who lives in Seattle, where EVs are exempt from the 9.1% (iirc) sales/use tax on new vehicles and EVSE is provided free by The EV Project. California's incentives are even more friendly.
- Charger efficiency of 90%, which is more than fair unless one's talking inductive charging

Gas price formula: 12,000 miles x 6 years * $X/gal / 22 mpg, which works out to $13,090 for X = 4.
Electricity price formula: 12,000 miles x 6 years * $Y/kWh * 0.440 kWh/mile / 90% charging efficiency, which works out to $3,520 for Y = 0.10.

Net "fuel" cost savings over 6 years and 72,000 miles = $13,090 - $3,520 = $9,570
Net initial purchase price difference = $49.8k - $7,500 - ($29.9k * 1.091) = $9,679

So the EV breaks even at just over 6 years, and that's before accounting for lower maintenance and increased resale value, the latter of which for used RAV4 EVs has historically been far greater than used gas RAV4s…

Despite all this, I still maintain that buying a $50k EV for frugality is a silly idea. If one wanted to be frugal, they wouldn't have been looking at 22 mpg, $30k cars of any sort in the first place, but rather combing the lower cost, more frugal branches of the automotive family tree. Again, though, frugality is not what I'm personally after.

You can do the math...

But i know they can bring this to market at a cheaper price.
And i know that it is just a California ZEV Mandate / CARB play.

Why?

They aimed low - low quantities, and not mass produced at all.
Where are they selling it? in California only.
$50k is rather outrageous. They are not pricing it aggressively at all.. seems like there's a premium on top.

neptronix said:

You can do the math...

But i know they can bring this to market at a cheaper price.
And i know that it is just a California ZEV Mandate / CARB play.

Why?

They aimed low - low quantities, and not mass produced at all.
Where are they selling it? in California only.
$50k is rather outrageous. They are not pricing it aggressively at all.. seems like there's a premium on top.

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I just redid my math, as I totally forgot about the Federal and state incentives. I used Seattle as my example, of course, with Cali's incentives even more generous.

With the incentives accounted for then the break-even time before accounting for increased resale and lower maintenance is just over 6 years. That makes $49.8k sound downright reasonable, given that the average length that an American holds onto a car is now 71 months (iirc, from a recent news article I can't locate now).

With regard to your points, I'd also like to see the car marketed elsewhere and in greater numbers, but a production run of 2,600 and the ability to buy the vehicle outright are a great start, imo.

Still beating the Subaru horse, I just upgraded mine to a 2010 Forester. Same great headroom, but a full six inches longer than my 98 in the passenger area. I'm not sure if it will really work well with rear facing car seats, but sitting in the back while my wife test drove it, I noticed immediately that the rear seats got most of that new 6 inches. Definitely as much space as a Rav 4, that's for sure.

Still gets the same 25 mph in mixed town and highway drive. Still about 10 times easier to work on that any othe car in the world, meaning the shop time you get charged for future repairs is waaaaaay less than hondas or toyotas. Still just as nimble off road as before, perhaps more since it now comes with 16's.

If the numbers work for you, to get the Rav4 EV, then go for it of course. But if they don't, seriously, test drive a forester.

Indeed the Forester and the RAV4 appear to be about the same size these days. 38"ish rear legroom, 70ish cubic feet of cargo space. 25 mpg isn't that bad, either, money-wise. Despite the back of napkin calculation above, though, I'm not looking to save money, per se. Instead I'm looking to spend a little more money--and the analysis shows it's not that much assuming one was going to buy a comparable new vehicle anyway--to use less petroleum.

Only making 300? I might just have to jump on this, but at that price, I would want to see some serious range, and evaluate the space/weight/accelleration tradeoffs.

IIRC the Rav4 V6 takes premium gasoline, and I'm already paying $4.50 gallon, more than you used in your test. If the global economy recovers, it is my personal belief that increased manufacturing will increase demand for crude and skyrocket the cost of gasoline, so $8/gallon wouldn't suprise me. Does that drop the payoff to 3 years?

-JD

oatnet said:

Only making 300? I might just have to jump on this, but at that price, I would want to see some serious range, and evaluate the space/weight/accelleration tradeoffs.

IIRC the Rav4 V6 takes premium gasoline, and I'm already paying $4.50 gallon, more than you used in your test. If the global economy recovers, it is my personal belief that increased manufacturing will increase demand for crude and skyrocket the cost of gasoline, so $8/gallon wouldn't suprise me. Does that drop the payoff to 3 years?

-JD

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They're making 2600 over 3 years, so I'm not sure where this 300 comes from?

At $8/gallon (again, averaged over the whole time period, so this is kind of unrealistic barring a step function jump to $8 tomorrow) break-even is between 30 and 31 months.

Toshi said:

They're making 2600 over 3 years, so I'm not sure where this 300 comes from?

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From a fart in my brain.

Somehow, I got the idea you were still considering a more gas hog suv, simply for the room inside.

Definitely, I too would have loved to buy something pure electric. I have a fantasy of ressurecting my 98 subaru as an electric. But on my budget, it ain't gonna happen. At best, I could afford to make it a 5 mile range car, and the only thing within 2.5 miles of the house is a gas station.

dogman said:

Somehow, I got the idea you were still considering a more gas hog suv, simply for the room inside.

Definitely, I too would have loved to buy something pure electric. I have a fantasy of ressurecting my 98 subaru as an electric. But on my budget, it ain't gonna happen. At best, I could afford to make it a 5 mile range car, and the only thing within 2.5 miles of the house is a gas station.

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The giant Land Cruiser/LX 570 is a perpetual dream of mine, but one that will go unrealized. I still believe it's the pinnacle of what gas vehicles can achieve in terms of capability, luxury, safety (by virtue of its size!) and durability, but the truth is I really can't justify it. My wife wouldn't want to drive such a large vehicle voluntarily, so if I bought one it'd languish in the driveway and be used occasionally by me to romp in the woods, or, more likely, to run my errands. We have no kids at the moment, so that'd really be egregious, and when/if we do make it to the 3 kid point in the future we're getting a minivan or a non-mini van outright. I could afford an LX 570 as an attending, but being able to do something doesn't make it a sound idea.

However, that I was mentally ready to drop $50k on a used LX 570 certainly made it easier to swallow the $50k price tag on this RAV4 EV. That's also before accounting for the tax incentives ($7500 Federal tax credit + no sales/use tax in WA + free EVSE in Seattle) and the much-lower per-mile costs that I back-of-napkin'ed out above. The point is that dreaming about LXs made me realize that I am willing to spend money for something if I believe in it.

That this RAV4 is technically an SUV would be handy for biking and skiing purposes: Yes, Virginia, I'd plan on using it to head to the trails by utilizing the growing network of fast-charging stations around Seattle. Once the Snoqualmie Pass quick charging station comes online I'd be able to go skiing at Alpental and Snoqualmie without using any petroleum! That concept is incredibly cool, imo, and in all honesty probably would get me back into skiing, my participation in which dropped off precipitously along with autocrossing when my environmental conscience hypertrophied back around 2008.


Note the Snoqualmie Pass quick charger pending

The one thing that'd have to fall by the wayside would be true off-loading, and road trips to do the same. The RAV4 EV will be doing none of that, being 2WD; having expensive smooth underside bits for aero purposes; lacking mileage to get to trails, let alone get to them, play on them, then return home; and not having a low range to boot. If I still have the itch to drive a 4x4 around Canyonlands National Park in the future I'll fly down to Moab and rent an SUV there for the week instead.

Although we have decades of being true-blue hondaphiles, when we shopped for my wife's new car last year, the Rav4 was the top choice. Fit and finish was the best, and the Ooomph from the suprisingly economical V6 was stunning, enough to overcome having the rear door open the wrong direction.

From our comparisons, the CRV lacked the spunk of the V6, the turbo in the RDX was too peaky, and the handling of Forester/Outback were just too trucklike (useful in many applications, but not ours). We skipped the Nissan's, after renting a few on assorted trips and being unable to adjust to the binary brakes (either on or off, no inbetween), and were turned off by every single American brand we sat in at the LA auto show. Unfortunately, my mother-in-law was very concerned about toyota's after the runaway throttle incidents, and talked my wife out of the Rav4. We got a completely maxed-out 4WD CRV instead, and in true Honda fashion have really come to love it.

But a true EV Rav 4 would be really interesting.

JD

I sent a message via webform to Toyota's corporate office putting out feelers regarding Seattle availability and/or service:

To whom it may concern-

My wife and I are very interested in purchasing a Toyota RAV4 EV once it becomes available. We live in Seattle, however. Are there plans to make the RAV4 EV available in Washington State? Failing that, if we bought a RAV4 EV from a California dealer and had it shipped to Washington post-sale would it be possible for our local Toyota dealer to provide warranty service for it?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

-[me], physician and EV enthusiast

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The gratuitous mention of me being a doctor is in hopes that they'll take the message a bit more seriously. I also left out the whole bit about us not actually moving to Seattle for another 12 months--irrelevant for this purpose.

oatnet said:

the Rav4 was the top choice [despite] having the rear door open the wrong direction.

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The barn door side-swinging rear door is my wife's sole concern with the RAV4 as well. Well that + availability as per the post above. :x

Toshi said:

I sent a message via webform to Toyota's corporate office putting out feelers regarding Seattle availability and/or service

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Toyota's response, emphasis mine:

Dear [Toshi], [...]

The RAV4 EV [...] will initially only be available from select California Toyota dealerships in the San Francisco, Sacramento, Los Angeles, and San Diego markets. At this time we do not have information on when this model will be launched in other states. [...]

Toyota dealerships nationwide will receive the training to properly maintain and service this new model. However, the timetable for this training will vary from region to region. We recommend contacting your local Toyota dealership and speaking with the Service Manager to confirm when their facility will be ready to provide service for the new RAV4 EV.

[...] Sincerely,

Ricardo Hernandez-Bonifacio
Toyota Customer Experience Center

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The hedging about wider availability is understandable, as they haven't announced what they haven't announced. The line about nationwide Toyota dealerships' forthcoming ability to service the RAV4 EV is exactly what I wanted to hear, though!

Awesome.

More RAV4 EV details emerge:

The battery has a nominal 41.8 kWh battery capacity as above, with the surprising thing being that the default charging settings are such that only 35 kWh are used in order to maximize the pack's lifetime, possibly to make sure that the 8 yr/100k mile warranty on that battery (as per CARB's regulations) doesn't turn into a money-sink for Toyota.

The 10 kW on-board Tesla charger "uses a standards-based charging interface", presumably SAE J1772, as opposed to Tesla-branded Tesla's, which use their own proprietary connector + adapters when on the road. This is a good thing, even though ChaDeMo Level 3 DC quick charging capability is conspicuously absent.

The projected EPA range certification is 92 miles with 35 kWh usable pack capacity and 113 miles when drawing down the full 41.8 kWh. For comparison, here are the EPA ranges for a few other EVs: 62 miles for the Mitsubishi iMiEV, 73 miles for the Nissan Leaf, and 76 for the Ford Focus Electric. If the 40 kWh Tesla Model S's range scales linearly with pack size as compared to its 85 kWh brother, then such a beast would go 124 miles on the EPA's tests, which are a bit conservative compared to reality provided one's not a beast with the HVAC system. (If one is a true driving ascetic then 170 miles is supposedly theoretically possible from the RAV4 EV.)

The center of gravity is low, illustrated here:

One interesting anecdote is that Toyota, in attempting to perform the government's mandatory roll-over crash test, was unable to get this SUV to roll using the government's prescribed method. Its center of gravity is so low, it just wouldn't tip.

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More photos and info from TTAC:

- New-gen 8" Entune infotainment system with voice control of iDevices and the like.
- Same motor as the Model S! The lower output of 154HP and 273 lb-ft (!) is via differences in battery pack power, DC-DC converter power, and controller programming.
- The 41.8 kWh pack uses the same cells but is not physically identical to the 40 kWh pack in the base Model S.

















The only problem with these positive reviews is that it makes it that much more unlikely that there'll be any left when I'm ready to put down some cash for one next spring/summer…

So September 25 was supposed to be the official on-sale date for the RAV4 EV. Indeed, a week or two before that date Toyota published a list of the dealers (quoted below). I haven't seen any stories about deliveries, though--and you know Toyota would trumpet said deliveries to the moon and back--so I guess the waiting game continues, and/or deadlines have been missed.

Official dealer list:

Central California

Salinas Toyota
Toyota Of Santa Maria
Toyota San Luis Obispo

Los Angeles

Bob Smith Toyota
Cabe Toyota
Carson Toyota
Claremont Toyota
Dch Toyota Of Oxnard
Dch Toyota Of Simi Valley
Dch Toyota Of Torrance
Hamer Toyota
John Elway's Crown Toyota
John Elway's Manhattan Beach Toyota
Keyes Toyota
Longo Toyota
Marina Del Rey Toyota
Miller Toyota
Penske Toyota
Power Toyota Buena Park
Power Toyota Cerritos
Toyota Central
Toyota Of Glendale
Toyota Of Glendora
Toyota Of Hollywood
Toyota Of The Desert
Toyota Santa Monica
West Covina Toyota
Wondries Toyota

Orange County

Capistrano Toyota
Power Toyota Irvine
South Coast Toyota
Tustin Toyota

Sacramento Area

Folsom Lake Toyota
Hanlees Toyota
Magnussen's Auburn Toyota
Roseville Toyota

San Diego

Frank Toyota
Mossy Toyota
Toyota Carlsbad
Toyota Of El Cajon

San Francisco Bay Area

Autowest Toyota Of Hayward
City Toyota
Freeman Toyota
Fremont Toyota
Hanlees Hilltop Toyot
One Toyota Of Oakland
Piercey Toyota
San Francisco Toyota
Stevens Creek Toyota
Toyota 101
Toyota Marin
Toyota Of Berkeley
Toyota Of Palo Alto
Toyota Of Walnut Creek
Toyota Sunnyvale

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50 dealers, so about 2 per dealer per month on average. Hmph.

It must be a new month, since I'm once again revising my vehicular plans… and the RAV4 EV is out of the running in all likelihood.

Both I and especially my wife had been very amped (cue rimshot) about the Toyota RAV4 EV: Good size and weight for carting a young family about town what with Thing #1 due at the end of February with associated giant rear-facing car seats and all, good range, good performance, good company with local presence everywhere… right?

Since California is the exclusive roll-out area I'd planned on shipping one north to Seattle, having been assured by a Toyota rep back in June that all those ubiquitous, national Toyota dealers would be able to service the thing.

Well, that turns out to be decidedly not the case, and I think that might just kill it in terms of its appeal to us.

How did I confirm this? A conscientious dealer gave me a copy of the mandatory pre-sales completion RAV4 EV Customer Disclosure Form. What does this disclosure form say, and why are my RAV4 EV plans now all phrased in the past tense? Here are the damning things, in my opinion, emphasis added by me:

Your RAV4 EV includes three (3) years of roadside assistance, valid only in the Continental United States and Alaska. This coverage includes towing for failure of a warranted part.

• A service provider will tow the vehicle to the closest Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer within 100 miles of the vehicle’s location. If the vehicle is located in excess of 100 miles from an Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer, then the vehicle will be towed to the nearest Toyota dealer and the customer will be responsible for additional towing charges to return the vehicle to an Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer, if necessary.

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DUE TO HIGH VOLTAGE AND THE RISK OF INJURY THIS VEHICLE’S POWERTRAIN AND HIGH VOLTAGE SYSTEMS SHOULD BE SERVICED AT AN AUTHORIZED TOYOTA RAV4 EV DEALERSHIP.

… powertrain and high voltage component maintenance or repairs should be performed by an Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer.

• Because warranty service for your electric powertrain can only be performed by an Authorized Toyota RAV4 EV Dealer in California, Toyota does not recommend home-basing the vehicle outside the State of California.

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Well, if you were really committed...you could move to California !

Hillhater said:

Well, if you were really committed...you could move to California !

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Heh, fair enough. I already have a contract for 2013-2014 at UW in Seattle (along with free rent at the mother-in-law's house!) so I'm tied down to the area.

you can buy the car in california and register it in Wa state even before you move out there. then you can drive the car to NY where you are now.