Electric vehicles, poor performance, high cost, vaporware

[pdf]

Ok I will explain more from a fuel saving point of view lets take a car like a Toyota Prius and compare that to something like a 2012 ford fiesta turbo diesel (not sure what they call then in the US). The Toyota P gives you 65mpg and the ford F gives you 75mpg. Why would I want to put up with all the disadvantages of the Toyota for no fuel saving's not to mention the ford at 22k locally is almost 1/2 the initial purchase price of the Toyota 40k locally and the Fords not a bad looking city hatch and the Toyota is dog ugly.

Even when it comes to carbon emissions the ford TDI is rated at 87g/km and the Prius is 89g/km. I just cant see the advantage in a hybrid.

Regarding driving 500miles to grandma's house. If my family live that far away (actually they live over 1000miles away) I would just fly to there house as its cheaper faster and safer then wasting a day in the car. We are talking 300mile range for some EV's now and its only going to get better.

The last time I drove more than 300 miles in one day was Easter last year on a camping tip. To be honest I would have been happy to drive 250miles then do another 200 miles the following day . I was on vacation and not in a hurry. When I am in a hurry it's going to work- dropping kids at school or driving some place within 100 miles or so to enjoy a nice leisure location on the weekend. Most working people don't have time to drive more than 300 miles Monday - Friday and then when its the weekend most people are not going on drives more then 150 miles from there home. Its really only driving vacations a few times a year where people do the big miles.

I guess It would be interesting to see the real numbers on how many people regularly need to travel more than 300 miles in a day and how often they do that. I feel it would only be a few times a year for most people.unless you are a delivery driver, taxi or live in way out in the country.

kurt.

The Fiesta diesel is not sold in the US, where I am. There is a bit of controversy about why not. Also, the Euro drive cycle that determines mpg is different than the US cycle; the US cycle will return mpg numbers significantly lower. The 50 mpg I quoted for the Prius is based on my ride with a guy who owns one who had 750 miles on the trip odometer (probably weighted to highway miles so would be a bit higher probably) and it was showing an average mpg of 50 or so. Anyway, a minor point. Compared to a Fiesta diesel, a Prius is the mpg loser at any rate. The Prius is a pretty nice car, however, at least in the US. I would be curious to see a side by side comparison of a Prius and whatever a similar trim level Fiesta would sell for. Anyway, if mpg is the name of the game, the Fiesta would win. From a "which car looks better" point of view, well I don't care much about that. They are about equal there as far as I can see. While a diesel has a lower CO2 emission, it has a much higher particulate emission number. Which is worse? Depends if you have a problem with asthma or if you live on an ice berg.

In the US, diesel fuel sells for about $3.75 where I live. Unleaded gasoline is around $3.37. So the difference in mp$ is pretty insignificant. Very few families that I know personally would fly 300 miles instead of driving. A family of 4 would pay well north of a grand in airfare for that flight and there would be a lot of places that you would still have to drive at lease 100 miles after you flew to the closest major airport. And then you'd be renting a car. So anyway, let's call it 200 miles and split the difference. You still aren't going to be driving that in a battery electric with anything commercially available outside of California. The amazing ranges that Tesla is hawking are for ideal drive cycles, no AC/heat.
It is impressive compared to other electrics, but any gas car will do it with gas to spare for a fraction of the price. So on a dollar-to-dollar basis, gas vehicles are still at a very significant advantage. Diesels are even better, if particulates are not a problem for you. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see everyone in a battery electric. I just don't think it will happen anytime in the next 15 years. In my opinion, plug-in and standard hybrids and other high mileage standard fuel vehicles are going to fill in for quite a while. I could be wrong of course. Just ask my wife!

[ProDigit]

There are electric vehicles that are powered by a ~4hp (or was it 4kW?) engine/generator. Those things have quite some torq, but also have amazing MPG ratings (like in the hundreds of MPG's).
The small lawnmower like engine drives a generator to provide a constant source of power. The electrical engine is selected in such a way when the car is driving below ~50-60mph, the energy it uses is about the energy the generator generates. If used faster it will use direct drive to aid the electric motors. When accelerating mostly battery power will be used. When slowing down or standing at a stop light, the battery gets recharged.

I'm not sure what hybrid you're supposed to be talking about, but you comments prove themselves wrong. A 4hp/4Kw drive might take a bicycle to 50-60mph, but no real car I know of. If you want to use 50hp of electricity, you must generate it with more than 50hp because of the loss in heat, the conversion, etc. Some of the experiments home builders did with an 8Kw generator to extend the range of their batteries were unimpressive.

For the Chevy Volt's 149hp electric motor to be getting nearly all its' power from the generator, the generator will need to be powered by 149hp and more. A lawnmower type output would be pretty much useless.

Not really true,
The true potential of a high powered car is only used during acceleration.
Beyond that, it requires very little for an engine to keep it going, or unless you want to drive at ridiculous speeds like over 100mph,and need engine power to overcome wind resistance.
Suppose there where no such thing as acceleration, but every car where to be catapulted on the road.
in order to keep it maintaining the speed, and keep it running uphill without losing too much power, only a small engine is needed.

Further more, the acceleration process is fueled by 25-50% by energy harvested from regenerative breaking.

Also, for most people they only drive uphill a small part of their journey. They are supposed to run purely from battery, but the plugin engine is just used as a range extender, not really as a source of energy. However, if the car is cruising at 30mph through the streets of a city, the 4kw engine in direct drive is strong enough to maintain that speed.

If the car is standing still for 1 minute on a red light, the 4kw generator may have charged more than enough energy in the battery and capacitor, for the acceleration process (which usually take less than ten seconds).
Even if it's a 4kW generator charging 100 seconds, theoretically it generates enough power for a 40kW motor to use that power in 10 seconds.
After those 10 seconds of acceleration,only a fraction of the motor is used. Quite often for cars like the volt, less than 5kW to keep it rolling.

[ProDigit]

Ok I will explain more from a fuel saving point of view lets take a car like a Toyota Prius and compare that to something like a 2012 ford fiesta turbo diesel (not sure what they call then in the US). The Toyota P gives you 65mpg and the ford F gives you 75mpg. Why would I want to put up with all the disadvantages of the Toyota for no fuel saving's not to mention the ford at 22k locally is almost 1/2 the initial purchase price of the Toyota 40k locally and the Fords not a bad looking city hatch and the Toyota is dog ugly.

Even when it comes to carbon emissions the ford TDI is rated at 87g/km and the Prius is 89g/km. I just cant see the advantage in a hybrid.

Regarding driving 500miles to grandma's house. If my family live that far away (actually they live over 1000miles away) I would just fly to there house as its cheaper faster and safer then wasting a day in the car. We are talking 300mile range for some EV's now and its only going to get better.

The last time I drove more than 300 miles in one day was Easter last year on a camping tip. To be honest I would have been happy to drive 250miles then do another 200 miles the following day . I was on vacation and not in a hurry. When I am in a hurry it's going to work- dropping kids at school or driving some place within 100 miles or so to enjoy a nice leisure location on the weekend. Most working people don't have time to drive more than 300 miles Monday - Friday and then when its the weekend most people are not going on drives more then 150 miles from there home. Its really only driving vacations a few times a year where people do the big miles.

I guess It would be interesting to see the real numbers on how many people regularly need to travel more than 300 miles in a day and how often they do that. I feel it would only be a few times a year for most people.unless you are a delivery driver, taxi or live in way out in the country.

kurt.

The Fiesta diesel is not sold in the US, where I am. There is a bit of controversy about why not. Also, the Euro drive cycle that determines mpg is different than the US cycle; the US cycle will return mpg numbers significantly lower. The 50 mpg I quoted for the Prius is based on my ride with a guy who owns one who had 750 miles on the trip odometer (probably weighted to highway miles so would be a bit higher probably) and it was showing an average mpg of 50 or so. Anyway, a minor point. Compared to a Fiesta diesel, a Prius is the mpg loser at any rate. The Prius is a pretty nice car, however, at least in the US. I would be curious to see a side by side comparison of a Prius and whatever a similar trim level Fiesta would sell for. Anyway, if mpg is the name of the game, the Fiesta would win. From a "which car looks better" point of view, well I don't care much about that. They are about equal there as far as I can see. While a diesel has a lower CO2 emission, it has a much higher particulate emission number. Which is worse? Depends if you have a problem with asthma or if you live on an ice berg.

In the US, diesel fuel sells for about $3.75 where I live. Unleaded gasoline is around $3.37. So the difference in mp$ is pretty insignificant. Very few families that I know personally would fly 300 miles instead of driving. A family of 4 would pay well north of a grand in airfare for that flight and there would be a lot of places that you would still have to drive at lease 100 miles after you flew to the closest major airport. And then you'd be renting a car. So anyway, let's call it 200 miles and split the difference. You still aren't going to be driving that in a battery electric with anything commercially available outside of California. The amazing ranges that Tesla is hawking are for ideal drive cycles, no AC/heat.
It is impressive compared to other electrics, but any gas car will do it with gas to spare for a fraction of the price. So on a dollar-to-dollar basis, gas vehicles are still at a very significant advantage. Diesels are even better, if particulates are not a problem for you. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see everyone in a battery electric. I just don't think it will happen anytime in the next 15 years. In my opinion, plug-in and standard hybrids and other high mileage standard fuel vehicles are going to fill in for quite a while. I could be wrong of course. Just ask my wife!

Agree with you,
and concerning this, there is extensive research into combining a 3cyinder diesel engine with an electric engine (14kW I believe), combined they get more than 160mpg, uses regenerative breaking, and battery charged at start. the cost of electricity is nothing compared to gasoline, however the benefit of saving $$ on gasoline does not outweigh the initial salesprice of electrical vehicles, unless you're looking at traveling short distances, and thinking about an electric bike which does not need insurance. You could save a significant sum not to pay insurance (in many cases gas and insurance costs are well above $1500 savings per year)!

[parajared]

EV's aren't as awesome as you would hope.
It all comes down to price and weight. Too much weight and you can't brake, steer, handle. You need something like a pickup truck to handle all the weight. And to push all that weight you need big expensive electronics. Go with the lighter lithium based build and you are talking about cash. Getting 2-4000 cycles on that $5000 battery bay isn't doing anything to save you money, not to mention the price to charge the thing up every night.

If you want to do a small build (ie geo metro, ford festiva, vw rabbit) just save yourself from blowing huge amounts of bucks on a EV conversion and just get a golf cart. Carts can be driven in 25mph zones legally, if you license and register them. You can throw a ton of batteries in the back if you need to go far, and they are already pre-built. Small car builds can go far, or go fast, but not both. Most demonstrate the same specs a run of the mill golf cart can do.

Best EV at the moment = e-bike build. You can't drive a golf cart down the highway shoulder, bike path, or sidewalk, but you sure can on an e-bike. You can fly right under the radar of all the rules, regulations, and government imposed crapola. You can build the things for less than a grand, and if you build them right you can do impressive distances. My personal record is 50miles on a 20aH battery, but I'm sure others have take theirs even further.


Other alternative builds I have done:
Veggie oil was my most successful alternative build before it became popular. I mean it's free fuel just waiting there to be picked up. Restaurants loved offloading the stuff.It meant changing fuel filters, evenings spend doing the impressively dirty job of pumping veggie oil and rebuilding fuel injectors and pumps on occasion, but it was free fuel if you were willing to work for it. No-one is giving up their grease these days though.

Waste transmission fluid was great, it never froze, it always stayed viscous, easy to pump out, and even when the veggie oil craze hit, transmission shops were happy to let the stuff go. Only problem was unlike veggie oil where you could scrape the crud off your oil refining filters, they would just clog up. I could never get the stuff to filter out properly and lost an engine once trying to use 10 micron filter rather than my usual 5 micron.

[Kurt]

$5000 wont get you much battery - perhaps 5- 8kwh of EV grade lithium. The electricity isn't expensive compared to fuel. Actually compared to most peoples car's getting 10lt 100km and a local cost of $1.50lt and electricity cost of $25c kwh it works out about 8 times cheaper (20% deduction for charging losses to fill up on electricity) 25c kwh is RE electricity price to so no coal.

Yes i do like how my ebike projects are stealth they have to be as mine is 10 times over the power limit

Kurt

[ProDigit]

When you're talking about sub 25mph vehicles, it's more affordable to buy an electric (in europe we would call it) 'scooter' than a real one.
The type you don't need no license for, you buy at the same price (between $1000 for the Lead-Acid version, and $2000 for the LiPo4 version), just about the same price as what you pay for a gas powered scooter, minus some maintenance costs,

However what you said parajared, made me think.
Yes, perhaps an electric scooter only consumes a few cent of a dollar per charge, but then again, the electric scooter does not get it's power straight from the ac!
It gets it's power from a transformer/charger. that charger probably consumes more energy than do actual charging (the efficiency of non-digital (aka Solid State) chargers is rather low).

Might be you're pumping a dollar per charge on AC in the charger, and you only get for 50ct on actual power on your ride.

[pdf]

When you're talking about sub 25mph vehicles, it's more affordable to buy an electric (in europe we would call it) 'scooter' than a real one.
The type you don't need no license for, you buy at the same price (between $1000 for the Lead-Acid version, and $2000 for the LiPo4 version), just about the same price as what you pay for a gas powered scooter, minus some maintenance costs,

However what you said parajared, made me think.
Yes, perhaps an electric scooter only consumes a few cent of a dollar per charge, but then again, the electric scooter does not get it's power straight from the ac!
It gets it's power from a transformer/charger. that charger probably consumes more energy than do actual charging (the efficiency of non-digital (aka Solid State) chargers is rather low).

Might be you're pumping a dollar per charge on AC in the charger, and you only get for 50ct on actual power on your ride.

I have one of the meters that plugs into the wall and then you plug your charger into that and it monitors the power coming from the wall. With this, I've measured the efficiency is somewhere slightly over 50% with my charger. However, here where I live, electricity is only 10 cent a kWh. I can get to work and back on my bike for less than 4 cents a day. So if i have a scooter, maybe it doubles. Even at that, it is so cheap you don't even have to account for the cost. So as long as you have a lightweight vehicle, efficiency is still not that big a deal. I really feel ultra-light electrics are in a sweet spot. The additional advantage of the bike is there is no legal mumbo-jumbo or hoops to jump through. They operate in the interstices of the legal/money-grubbing system. When you make it a car, then you loose much of the benefit. You also gain a lot of convenience, so it comes down to what that convenience is worth.

[leffex]

To drive cheap

Since hybrid or electric cars are "special" their price is special. Double price than normal cars in my country. Nissan Leaf 48,500 dollars. ION, EU brand 55,000 dollars. Cheapest second-hand Toyota Proius, 10,000 dollars, average second-hand prices 20,000 dollars.

New cars are coming into the market and are here already. They are almost identical to the Toyota Prious hybrid technology, added that they might have start-stop function and electric assistance system in seperated wheels. BMW, VOLVO and other brands have them and also carries a "special" price on these as they are special. New ones about at cheapest 30,000 dollars and normal prices around 50,000 dollars.

To cope with emissions laws also standards cars being build by the manufacturers are going backwards using 3-cylinder engines for petrol and or diesel .

If I where in the US id buy a sports car Lotus Elise or Toyota MR2 Roadster. They are 40mpg(US) cars. Safe and strong build toyota engines enough to sustain 250,000 miles.
But I like biking with electric assistance.


Why people buy the "costly" and superficial (average Joe or Jane) I don't know. What I know is why I myself don't do or follow this nonsense.

Commercials affect people.
Family have influence over you and your choices
Other people or gangs have influence over you and your choices
Open-mindfullness. How open you are for change

Being less open minded for change and more easely accesible for commercials and all terms makes average Joe following the crowd since this is the EASIEST road to take.

However thinking yourself changes this and average Joe questions your decisions(being insecure himself why you don't follow average understanding of things)

Courtesy, being a human as other humans want you or as yourself?
Have you tried eating with yours hands, different cultures do that and thats average in their culture and they will say the opposite and question you. Why do you eat with tools?
Differnet is good.

I don't like busses, trams, and that all things are tax secured. Transportation IS(existing becuase of taxes). Subsidies above 50% is not long term viable. So the tram user pays 6 dollars for a single ride and another 6 dollars are payed with governemnt money. hmmm yeah, and I can drive with my car for 1 dollar of fuel money, park my car and pay another dollar for the same trip. If I was bicycling I'd pay 20cents. However what is great. Private companies have trips in the 100-200 miles cost 15-30 dollars which seems not be subsidised. That's better than local authorities having busses driving around and wasting money.

My country has 33% tax and after that the paycheck is in the pocket. Taxes are also additional 25% for everything you buy. But now I save 5 dollars a day. yippi Im biking and today ill go with try my 20A after 2 weeks of great working 16A controller. Soon my protection gear comes and I will start full throttle commute

[Punx0r]

Lotus Elise or Toyota MR2 Roadster. They are 40mpg(US) cars.

The Elises have always had very low emissions, which annoyed some of the eco-hippy people because it's a sportscar

But it's a powerful demonstration that low weight is a very good thing!

[IBScootn]

This will be my next car and it will still only have two wheels:
http://Www.litmotors.com

The C-1 might just have me retiring my e-moto as it might be even more efficient, more comfortable, and much safer. With tax incentatives in Colorado that $20K price tax will be more like $12K. Can't wait for these to be in production.

[Hillhater]

This will be my next car and it will still only have two wheels:
http://Www.litmotors.com
.

It would be neat...if it is ever available !
Its never a good sign when a company uses a beat up old prototype as the main (only) demonstration vehicle in their promo material.

[Punx0r]

That's witchcraft!

[iamsofunny]

Well then just have a few people in the community that have woodgas trucks. Pile in about 6 people, rock downtown with music blaring as loud as possible. Fare might be $1 per person for a 50km round trip.

Then everyone can have ebikes for ripping around short trips.

Long trips, have more woodgas trucks filled with wood in the back and propane for backup. You can go pretty far. We have lots of propane sitting in the ground anyway.

The government needs to get rid of the income tax so we can afford to buy electric cars. 2 years' average working person's income tax can buy an electric car instead of the entire income tax going to welfare and 'disease invention and illness management for profit via most expensive and destructive method possible' (aka the health care system, of which I don't use unless I snap my sh#t up) we can buy new electric cars every couple of years. In fact, if you work at a good job, you could buy a new e-car every year and just give them away to friends.

[IBScootn]

100+mph, 200 mile range; I want one even if it will only really do 75% of that:
http://litmotors.com/c-1/how-the-c-1-works/

[Jeremy Harris]

This will be my next car and it will still only have two wheels:
http://Www.litmotors.com

The C-1 might just have me retiring my e-moto as it might be even more efficient, more comfortable, and much safer. With tax incentatives in Colorado that $20K price tax will be more like $12K. Can't wait for these to be in production.

I've always thought this was the way to go, ever since first seeing Cedric Lynch's home made electric motorcycle several years ago (see here: http://www.paulcompton.vispa.com/lynch1.htm)

Way back in the early 90's Cedric was getting a usable range of well over 100 miles (on lead acid batteries!) at around 50 mph. The key was good aerodynamics, even if the thing does look like an escapee from Scrapheap Challenge (Junkyard Wars for our US friends). His later version, with a big LiFePO4 pack, did around 175 miles at 50 mph.

[IBScootn]

Most e-cars make a huge mistake; they try to look like other cars. But the standard car is too wide to be pushed through the air efficiently. What makes more sense is to build new, narrow cars or narrow-track vehicles.

I found out about narrow-track vehicles when Commutercars.com came to me looking for an rugged computer to manage their battery charging/discharging function on their prototype Tango car. Their goal was to produce a safe narrow vehicle that would take up half a normal road lane width. Cities could use lane-splitting, so that two of these vehicles could share a lane and reduce traffic congestion. Sounded great and the fact that it was electric was cool. Check out Commutercars.com. For whatever reasons, the company never got fed funding so their T600 is over $200K as they build one at a time. Cool car with a full racing cage and a 0-60mph at 3.2s (drool) but as this thread states just too expensive ($200K). Lower power production model was supposed to be around $10K.

Then there is the X-prise winner, Peraves AG's eTracer, very cool narrow track vehicle even with its training wheels.

Then unfortunately, Nissan never put into production their Land Glider, which I would have bought over their Leaf.

Now there's the hope that people will get behind Lit Motors' C-1; yeah right now it is just vapor ware, but I hope it makes it. That video showing the jeep dragging the C-1 sideways is just too cool.

If the C-1 doesn't make it, I guess I could buy a rolling chassis Thoroughbred Motorsports' Stallion, and convert to EV: http://www.motortrike.com/mt3Stallion.aspx

For some reason, I'm seeing a lot of these Stallions in my area; much cooler than a CanAm Spyder.

[oatnet]

Now there's the hope that people will get behind Lit Motors' C-1; yeah right now it is just vapor ware, but I hope it makes it. That video showing the jeep dragging the C-1 sideways is just too cool.

If the C-1 doesn't make it, I guess I could buy a rolling chassis Thoroughbred Motorsports' Stallion, and convert to EV: http://www.motortrike.com/mt3Stallion.aspx

For some reason, I'm seeing a lot of these Stallions in my area; much cooler than a CanAm Spyder.

I'd buy a C-1 if it makes it to production, and isn't compromised to crap.

Neither the spyder nor the stallion will ever be cool because they both scream "I need training wheels". Worse, neither tilts, but at least the Can-Am is reverse-tadpole, so the front end is stable. However, the tricycle format of the stallion is extremely unstable, so a rider needs to slow way down for curves and turns, which is why 3-wheel ATVs aren't made any more, and very few build to that format.

Anyone else getting a sinclair c-5 vibe off the "stallion"?

[Arlo1]

Anybody know more about the Nanophosphate EXT from A123??? Luke??? http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2012/0 ... echnology/

[TylerDurden]

That trike is a deathtrap with a useless decoration masquerading as a roll-bar. Maybe its for the wrecker to lift it out of the ditch.

[Herrsprocket]

The X prize contenders, just a few years ago, seemed to be leading the way in breaking a marketing barrier for the US market. With a concept that these vehicles would soon be a reality for consumer use, those that were following the X prize venue, were eagerly awaiting its outcome. Certainly, several design formats were utilized in achieving the amazing performances that we saw throughout the event, each with its own notion on how best to present itself as a viable candidate for marketability, performance, and efficiency.

A winner was announced, there were several other vehicles that did extremely well also, and some that didn't perform so well yet we knew had serious intentions on being a real player in the alternative vehicle venue, i.e., Aptera. It is rather disappointing when it takes so long for such great products to come to market, I wish it weren't so. Other then all of us individually making the effort to create demand, and advocating it vociferously to all who will listen, I believe the wheels of change will continue to turn ever so slowly. The morphing of our transportation infrastructure is inevitable, it is as always, just a matter of time.

And back to the X prize contenders. I have always been a strong advocate of the possibility of human hybrid transportation,( I mean, look I'm here at endless sphere aren't I? ), and my favorite of the entries at the X prize was the new Twike (TW4XP), which is a standalone electric vehicle or had the option of human drive assistance. Quite the opposite of electric assistance bicycles, this is more of human assistance in an urban roadworthy vehicle. It presents a substantially larger aerodynamic footprint pushing through the air than its predecessor the original Twike, but to me it is so much more uber cool. Here is a link to the site dedicated to the X prize Twike vehicle. http://www.tw4xp.com/

This second-generation Twike is much larger and much more roomy on the inside than the original Twike. I've ridden in the original Twike, and it's neat, but it's a little tight and cornering must be handled with care. The power on the original Twike is minimalistic with something like a 3 kW motor on board, whereas the new vehicle has a 70 kW motor as the prime power source. Both vehicles have human assist available, whereas in the case of the new Twike, the human assist is just barely above token in value. But I'd do it anyway with pride, thinking that somehow at speeds in a residential area I might be able to contribute to 20% of the needed energy to propel the vehicle, and I'm cool with that.

There hasn't been any news about the TW4XP in many moons, I just hope that this is also not going to simply be another case of vaporware. It isn't superefficient like a velomobile with electric assist might be, as it is more in the ballpark of other standard offered electric vehicles are now. But you do get to peddle it! Me likey!

[IBScootn]

Thanks for pointing out the TW4XP. I was focusing on the Tango and xTracer that I don't even remember the TW4XP.

Here's a tilting trike that would put a grin on when converted to EV (newer version of the Carver):
http://flytheroad.com/videos.html

Check out the videos, like "Drive From iTV" on that site. Looks so fun!!

[oatnet]

Thanks for pointing out the TW4XP. I was focusing on the Tango and xTracer that I don't even remember the TW4XP.

Here's a tilting trike that would put a grin on when converted to EV (newer version of the Carver):
http://flytheroad.com/videos.html

Check out the videos, like "Drive From iTV" on that site. Looks so fun!!

Yeah, good pick for the vaporware thread, I "pre-registered" for a persu for 4-5 years ago, suprised they still bother to keep the website up.

[Warren]

Lots of these cool EV's have no market. There may be 10,000 people on the planet who would love one, and 20 of them could ever afford it, so they never get past prototypes. Here is an example.

http://www.lynxcars.com/

And the electric version of the Monotracer is a fine example. It won the X-Prize. It is one of the most efficient vehicles on the planet. It went around the world in the Zero Race, averaging 130 Wh/mile. There are at least three of them in existence. But not a single order so far that I have heard of.

[Hillhater]

Lots of these cool EV's have no market. There may be 10,000 people on the planet who would love one, and 20 of them could ever afford it, so they never get past prototypes. Here is an example.

http://www.lynxcars.com/

And the electric version of the Monotracer is a fine example. It won the X-Prize. It is one of the most efficient vehicles on the planet. It went around the world in the Zero Race, averaging 130 Wh/mile. There are at least three of them in existence. But not a single order so far that I have heard of.

What ! ..has nobody told J Leno ? ..

In truth, unless i had a LOT of spare cash, i doubt i would be tempted by any EV unless it had a TRUE range of 200+ miles of normal use ( not in eco mode).
Tesla S is close...but then about as likely to be in my future as Pipa Middletons back end !