Electric vehicles, poor performance, high cost, vaporware

[Kurt]

Even if the capacity doubled for the same weight/size/cost, it still wouldn't be enough. Rather than "100 miles" in a Leaf you could do as much as 200 miles. woop-de-freakin-do; that's a 3 hour drive at 65mph and you're done.

If you need to regularly travel 200miles at a time (and delivering things isn't your occupation), you have chosen an extremely wasteful of your life/time and resources lifestyle.

I drive 0.8miles to work. I used to drive 1.1miles to work. It's not by chance, it's because I choose to not give that portion of my life to sitting in a car rather than doing awesome things.

If a 200mile EV can't satisfy 98% of your vehicle needs, it's really time to look into improving the way you live IMHO.

With all this talk about range I would have to agree that 99% of people think they drive longer distances than they do each day before parking there car for the night. Living in Australia we have some crazy distances between places and plenty of open roads yet when you boil it all down Unless some one is taking a driving vacation or driving for a living most peoples daily trips are very short.

If I was to use my home city as an example the suburbs would perhaps sprawl 30 miles in all directions from the CBD. So wost case scenario if you lived on the outside of town and worked on the outside of town in the other direction 60 miles each way. You would drive 120 miles in a day . You would be a total nutcase for doing so and wanting to sit through 60 miles of city traffic each way but even so in that silly example its doable in a modern EV.

We have found when researching property out of town that around 60 miles is the max people will usually consider living from they work before they start saying it just isnt feasible to commute each day.Even then its only very few that will put up with eating 3hrs of there life each day.

We have a weekend house that is 61 miles from the CBD and at times my wife has commute from there to the CBD. Just for a week or two and when you take city traffic into account its a 1.5hr trip each way. So that's 3hrs a day just to get to work and about the limit of 99.9% of people would want to consider. But even so its only 122 miles return and could be done with today's EV tec.

Our city house is just 6 miles from the CBD we would be lucky to clock up 60 miles a week in our car when living down there. I'm sure a lot of people would get a real shock if they actually reset there trip meter each day before parking there car up for the night and took note of the miles traveled. I would say 99% would be under 100 miles for the day and a large portion of that would be under 50 miles.

When we go on driving vacations around Australia we find about 600km or 375 miles to be about the max we want to travel each day before it becomes not so enjoyable. (dont get me wrong I have driven way way more in a day) But if you have a choice and you are traveling a few thousand miles for a holiday I feel 375 miles usually chews up a big portion of the day when you take rest brakes, lunch stops and finding some where to crash for the night into the picture. It's a good 8hr's on the road as you are never just sitting on 60mph for 6hrs you have to slow down for towns and so on.

Throw in a 1hr charge while your having lunch into the picture and with today's tec you have a car with a longer range that will outlast most drivers stamina behind the wheel in 24hrs.

Kurt

[ProDigit]

Hi,
I haven't read the whole thread, but wanted to give me my 2ct.
Since I see most people in this thread are just ranting, let me be one of them too!

The rules and regulations make ebikes the way they are. Most of them are artificially limit a bike to a ridiculous speed of 20mph. I can drive faster on my pedal pusher than that!
If they legally would allow the speed limit to be increased to 30mph, it would allow these bikes to be used inside most cities and rural areas.
30MPH is technically what most people can get out of their bikes. It does not matter if you can maintain 30MPH for 2 seconds, or for 2 hours, on a bike most people won't drive past 30MPH for long, but most cyclists would drive 25MPH for prolonged periods of time. I see no reason why a scooter/electric bike/sub 50cc motorbike should be limited to 20MPH?

I think the speed limit of electric bikes should at least be increased from 25 MPH on a low battery, to 30MPH on a freshly charged one; and laws and regulations changed so that folks having such a bike won't need a license nor insurance for this.

Second, there have to be made company parking spaces for bikes, a parkinglot overseen by people, or locked in a room behind a fingerprint scanner enabled electronic lock; where people can lock their bikes, reducing the risk of stealing; each station equipped with a free charging station for personnel, and a keylock alarm!

Thirdly, USA needs to learn from Europe, and prioritize on bike transit in highly populated area's.
Make wider bike trails, and take a strip of car tracks away. Every city major should prefer less traffic in a city, and less traffic could mean 4 bikes taking up road space of 2 cars, instead of 3-4 cars!

So something in the entire fabric of our society must embrace change, and accommodate for it!

In such case, electric bikes would sell like hotcakes.

Of course, that's not good for the lawmakers, who earn their profits from tickets, they will need to find that income elsewhere, in this case focusing more on electric bikes, doing regular speed checks, penalizing those who's bikes drive more than 2-5MPH faster than the allowed maximum, tightening bike regulations (like forcing lights, reflectors, and mudguards, helmet and eye protection, limiting engine torq, and luggage or bike weight and stuff like that) and before you know it, you pay just as much on a bike ticket, than on a car ticket!

It's the lawmakers that destroy a country, by saying 'no' to everything, and putting extreme regulations, taking away what it means to be living in a 'free' country!
(ps: have you seen what still remains 'free' these days? Parking space, road moral code, etc etc.. There's no freedom anymore in USA, and if you ask me, they should change Lady liberty, to Mr Law, with an iron chain in his hand instead of a torch, and a banker or bank bills in his other hand, because the second way of slavery is make slaves via taxation and economic ways!

Go to Africa, and find that no one cares if you're driving 100MPH over the streets, with 5 people in the back of the truck, and 2 on the roof!
And guess what? There are less recorded accidents in Africa, then in USA, why? Because if I hit you, and you break your nail, you sew me, and I need to pay paper fees, court fees, your new nail fees, lawyer fees, etc etc...
In Africa, they go like 'it's ok dude, I'm ok', you apologize, buy a band-aid, and a chicken burrito for him, and the guy's ok with you!
There they understand what an accident is, over here they seemingly have forgotten. Until they are in the death chair for driving over a child crossing the street while they hadn't seen it!
But that's beside the point,

I think it's pretty feasible, to have a bike, like an Xtreme XB-700Li's bike, fill the trunk with a secondary battery, and all of a sudden you have a bike that travels 70miles, at 35MPH. If that bike would require no license, or insurance, all of a sudden everyone would be wanting one of those!

[Hillhater]

..... and all of a sudden you have a bike that travels 70miles, at 35MPH. If that bike would require no license, or insurance, all of a sudden everyone would be wanting one of those!

Sure, ..everyone would be wanting one of those.... but what happens when some drunk punk riding at 35mph on an uninsured E bike knocks you down and hospitalizes you?. ..... I dont think a burrito will pay the medical bills !
you should expect insurance to be a requirement ( for your own protection)
.. and why should someone else pay for your recharging ?
..There is no free lunch,

[ProDigit]

I know, but the difference between 20mph accident and a 25mph accident is minimal.
In both cases most of the time, even if a child appears from behind a corner, there's still time to slow down to a slow enough pace to minimize the damage (minus being drunk ofcourse).
Drunks are destroying it all for us, but then again, because many drunks are caught behind the wheel do we all have to drive 20mph now with our cars?
I think the drunk 'excuse' is a weak excuse. When a drunk knows he's drunk he'll never say, and still use a car or motorcycle drunk!
Responsible people will not use a car after too many glasses, and neither should they use a motorbike or 30mph bike.

If they can't make that call, they should not have access to a car,or real motorbike neither.

It's really an excuse most people use to justify bikes driving slower than 20mph.
Let cops allow people with clean record to upgrade their bikes to 30mph, and people with DUI have 5 years no access to these bikes, and only drive 20mph bikes!

In reality chances of driving <20mph on a road where there's a 40mph speedlimit is more dangerous than letting a drunk guy drive at 25 or 30mph; especially when the guy is drunk!

And there are places within the USA where you can't get from A to B (in 10 minutes), unless you use a 40mph road, or do a ridiculous 3 hours drive around to get there.

If it was upto me,bikes should drive 30mph, since that's the standard speed within urban area's. But yeah...
I might as well be shouting this against the walls....

[Kurt]

Ebikes and motorbikes are all well and good but when its bad weather or you want to carry some things with you A small car has its place.

I was just looking over the Tesla model S from what I can see 50K in the US If i could buy one for that price in Australia I would take the money out of the bank today. You wouldn't even get a a base model BMW - Volvo or typical euro sedan for that price in Australia. The more I look into that Tesla model S the more there is to like. 1/2 the mums doing the school run in my area are driving small euro SUV's or station wagons that cost between 50 - 80k so its not like people wont pay that kind of money for a nice car. Doing the numbers even at our very expensive electricity rate of 20 - 25c kwh a base model tesla would burn 6.25kwh - 100km or $1.56c - 100km . I typical mid size sedan will burn 10lt - 100km at around $1.50c lt that's $15 - 100km That's 10 times the cost of running a 40kw tesla with 250km range. Ok charging isn't 100% efficient but even at 50% efficiency its 5 times cheaper to run than a ICE car.

Kurt.

[Hillhater]

Kurt, have you checked the price of the Leaf, or the Volt in California ?
After rebates etc, the Leaf is about $25k.

[Kurt]

Yes cars in the US are always less expensive and always will be . I am fine with that we don't have the market and high tax on cars.I dont feel The leaf and volt are not even on the same page as the Tesla model s. I guess the price reflects that.

What I was getting at is if you want a nice looking and fast sedan in Australia- forget the fact the Tesla is electric and just base the choice on style-performance and features. You would be comparing the model S tesla with a 50 - 80k sedan's from the likes of BMW- Merc . Then you take the fact the Tesla is electric and all the huge advantages is running costs, interior room and handling, emissions bla bla bla the choice of whats better value and a better car becomes clear.

Cars like the Toyota Prius and Camry just make me laugh. hybrids are the worst of both worlds.

kurt

[ProDigit]

hybrids are the worst of both worlds.

I would not say that! There are electric vehicles that are powered by a ~4hp (or was it 4kW?) engine/generator. Those things have quite some torq, but also have amazing MPG ratings (like in the hundreds of MPG's).
The small lawnmower like engine drives a generator to provide a constant source of power. The electrical engine is selected in such a way when the car is driving below ~50-60mph, the energy it uses is about the energy the generator generates. If used faster it will use direct drive to aid the electric motors. When accelerating mostly battery power will be used. When slowing down or standing at a stop light, the battery gets recharged.

That way you keep noise levels down, consume only low amounts of gasoline, and when you need it, have the torq from the batteries. Also, the direct drive helps since it gets the energy straight from the tiny engine instead of having part of it lost in a conversion process (converting from movement to energy, back to movement).

I think some hybrids are very well designed, but not many.

[Kurt]

hybrids are the worst of both worlds.

I would not say that! There are electric vehicles that are powered by a ~4hp (or was it 4kW?) engine/generator. Those things have quite some torq, but also have amazing MPG ratings (like in the hundreds of MPG's).
The small lawnmower like engine drives a generator to provide a constant source of power. The electrical engine is selected in such a way when the car is driving below ~50-60mph, the energy it uses is about the energy the generator generates. If used faster it will use direct drive to aid the electric motors. When accelerating mostly battery power will be used. When slowing down or standing at a stop light, the battery gets recharged.

That way you keep noise levels down, consume only low amounts of gasoline, and when you need it, have the torq from the batteries. Also, the direct drive helps since it gets the energy straight from the tiny engine instead of having part of it lost in a conversion process (converting from movement to energy, back to movement).

I think some hybrids are very well designed, but not many.

and the advantage is ?

No full size car that is going 60mph is powered by a 4kw motor. If your putting gas into it then there is no advantage other than range. Really unless you plan on taking regular trips over 200 - 300 miles then that isn't going to be a issue.

If i am going to have to maintain a ICE I my as well just have a completely gas powered car.I consider a hybrid to be like any dual function tool it never dose as good a job as a dedicated tool for the job.

Yes I know the concept behind hybrids and the advantages on paper but really the other than range a can see no reason to go down that road. Big battery and big electric motor all electric is the answer. Can you imagine a hybrid ebike what a nightmare it would be with no real advantage.

Kurt

[pdf]

Yes I know the concept behind hybrids and the advantages on paper but really the other than range a can see no reason to go down that road. Big battery and big electric motor all electric is the answer. Can you imagine a hybrid ebike what a nightmare it would be with no real advantage.

Kurt

I have to disagree with you on this one. A hybrid is a car that averages 50 mpg, will carry a family, and go over 500 miles on a (small) tank of gas. These are not "paper" advantages. They are very real. Why do you care what is under the hood, unless you are going to work on it? Most people don't. Make that a plug-in hybid and you can go 500 miles to grandma's or 20 miles round trip to the office and back and the only difference is where the fuel comes from and what it costs. Battery cars do not have the range currently for the average driver's sole purpose vehicle. Charging one is a several-hour affair. For me, an electric car would make a great 2nd car, but it is still much easier to have a higher capacity vehicle in the garage for some uses. With a whole country driving electrics, where is the energy going to come from and at what cost? Simply electrifying our current transportation models is not an option.

As for a hybrid bike, it has no advantage, but who would drive one 100 miles? You could build one, but your ass would give out before the battery.

I've love a Leaf, but not at that price. It is still a long way to pay-back and most people aren't going to invest in a personal appliance with a payback period between 5 and 10 years (depending on what you buy, how much you drive, and what you assume it replaces). Anyway, that is how I see it. For me, the cool factor is nice but if it doesn't pay back, count me out. I have two kids to send to college and I'd like to retire before I'm 80.

[Arlo1]

If I ever loose my licence I will be putting a generator on my bmx to get to and from work.
Hybrids help more in stop and go driving. You can tune a ICE powered car to be at its max efficiency at one speed but the second you hit the breaks you waste gas. SO this makes hybrids a easy choice. And with the plug in hybrids its a even better step in the right direction!

[Dauntless]

There are electric vehicles that are powered by a ~4hp (or was it 4kW?) engine/generator. Those things have quite some torq, but also have amazing MPG ratings (like in the hundreds of MPG's).
The small lawnmower like engine drives a generator to provide a constant source of power. The electrical engine is selected in such a way when the car is driving below ~50-60mph, the energy it uses is about the energy the generator generates. If used faster it will use direct drive to aid the electric motors. When accelerating mostly battery power will be used. When slowing down or standing at a stop light, the battery gets recharged.

I'm not sure what hybrid you're supposed to be talking about, but you comments prove themselves wrong. A 4hp/4Kw drive might take a bicycle to 50-60mph, but no real car I know of. If you want to use 50hp of electricity, you must generate it with more than 50hp because of the loss in heat, the conversion, etc. Some of the experiments home builders did with an 8Kw generator to extend the range of their batteries were unimpressive.

For the Chevy Volt's 149hp electric motor to be getting nearly all its' power from the generator, the generator will need to be powered by 149hp and more. A lawnmower type output would be pretty much useless.

[Kurt]

I have to disagree with you on this one. A hybrid is a car that averages 50 mpg, will carry a family, and go over 500 miles on a (small) tank of gas. These are not "paper" advantages. They are very real. Why do you care what is under the hood, unless you are going to work on it? Most people don't. Make that a plug-in hybid and you can go 500 miles to grandma's or 20 miles round trip to the office and back and the only difference is where the fuel comes from and what it costs. Battery cars do not have the range currently for the average driver's sole purpose vehicle. Charging one is a several-hour affair. For me, an electric car would make a great 2nd car, but it is still much easier to have a higher capacity vehicle in the garage for some uses. With a whole country driving electrics, where is the energy going to come from and at what cost? Simply electrifying our current transportation models is not an option.

As for a hybrid bike, it has no advantage, but who would drive one 100 miles? You could build one, but your ass would give out before the battery.

I've love a Leaf, but not at that price. It is still a long way to pay-back and most people aren't going to invest in a personal appliance with a payback period between 5 and 10 years (depending on what you buy, how much you drive, and what you assume it replaces). Anyway, that is how I see it. For me, the cool factor is nice but if it doesn't pay back, count me out. I have two kids to send to college and I'd like to retire before I'm 80.

Ok I will explain more from a fuel saving point of view lets take a car like a Toyota Prius and compare that to something like a 2012 ford fiesta turbo diesel (not sure what they call then in the US). The Toyota P gives you 65mpg and the ford F gives you 75mpg. Why would I want to put up with all the disadvantages of the Toyota for no fuel saving's not to mention the ford at 22k locally is almost 1/2 the initial purchase price of the Toyota 40k locally and the Fords not a bad looking city hatch and the Toyota is dog ugly.

Even when it comes to carbon emissions the ford TDI is rated at 87g/km and the Prius is 89g/km. I just cant see the advantage in a hybrid.

Regarding driving 500miles to grandma's house. If my family live that far away (actually they live over 1000miles away) I would just fly to there house as its cheaper faster and safer then wasting a day in the car. We are talking 300mile range for some EV's now and its only going to get better.

The last time I drove more than 300 miles in one day was Easter last year on a camping tip. To be honest I would have been happy to drive 250miles then do another 200 miles the following day . I was on vacation and not in a hurry. When I am in a hurry it's going to work- dropping kids at school or driving some place within 100 miles or so to enjoy a nice leisure location on the weekend. Most working people don't have time to drive more than 300 miles Monday - Friday and then when its the weekend most people are not going on drives more then 150 miles from there home. Its really only driving vacations a few times a year where people do the big miles.

I guess It would be interesting to see the real numbers on how many people regularly need to travel more than 300 miles in a day and how often they do that. I feel it would only be a few times a year for most people.unless you are a delivery driver, taxi or live in way out in the country.

kurt.

[dnmun]

i think you live way out in the country!!! but i used to drive 35 minutes each way to work, so i can relate, and yes i live way out in the country there.

my point about the plug in hybrid is that it would be the easiest way to get a sustained EV capacity without doing all the build of a ground up EV conversion. to be able to use the 'small' prius motor for EV travel and spend the big bucks on the lifepo4 pack for the storage.

i just could not justify the time to build a vehicle from the ground up when there is so much other stuff to get done before i die.

i have been tempted to do plug in hybrid though, except the base cost of a used prius is so high it makes it even more difficult to justify. i only drive about 2k miles a year now anyway, and the prius would not carry the junk i haul when i do drive.

i still think you would be the ideal marketing 'poster boy' for a plug in hybrid, and that was why i recommended looking into it. you never know where they will wanna waste their marketing money, so i would play those odds. of course you would have to be all smiles, and that may be your biggest problem, sustaining the Toyota grin sorta thing. BOL

[Kurt]

Yes its a good point on using something factory as foundation platform to work with. Its just the High secondhand cost and not so ideal platform that doesn't make it the best option.

My other thread regarding building a ground up EV from a Honda civic . Was more talking out loud about my ideas to see if it was worth my time and money. In the end it's much cheaper to run through it all on paper first then to get stuck into a project that you look back on and find out you didn't get value or the results you were looking for just because you didn't consider all your options.

One thing though looking into building a pure EV though did make me research more on what was available from the factory and I was surprised by the apparent value of some particularly the tesla model s. From an engineering point of view the chassis package is fantastic. From a style point of view the body is nice and from a geeky gadget point of view it has that covered. From the marketing I can see the guys in the US can walk drive away in one when delivered for 57K and 50k after government insensitive. That's a base model with 40kw battery and 160 mile range.

For me to build a ground car that could compete even just with the numbers of a model S. Just the 40kw battery would cost 25k or more and would end up int he less than ideal location. Then if i wanted a motor and controller that would give performance like the tesla model s I would be surprised if you had to spend another 10k or much more. Then to find a body/shell that's even 1/2 as good would set me back 10k for a nice clean imported sports sedan shell. So in parts alone we are talking 45k with no labor and in the end it wouldn't be a patch on the factory built Tesla model S.

To be honest at 57k I don't know how they are not making a loss? or perhaps they are just to to build volume?

Ok i could do a modest civic conversion with 20kw pack and perhaps build something nice for 20 - 25k. But looking into it more depending if they get off the ground and on what they go for in AU I would prefer to be driving a base model S Tesla and spend the extra 30k or so over the conversion so some views are changing now I know what out there. Not sure if adopting Gen 1 is the best option though but part of me feels some one has to to get company's off the ground.

Kurt

[pdf]

Ok I will explain more from a fuel saving point of view lets take a car like a Toyota Prius and compare that to something like a 2012 ford fiesta turbo diesel (not sure what they call then in the US). The Toyota P gives you 65mpg and the ford F gives you 75mpg. Why would I want to put up with all the disadvantages of the Toyota for no fuel saving's not to mention the ford at 22k locally is almost 1/2 the initial purchase price of the Toyota 40k locally and the Fords not a bad looking city hatch and the Toyota is dog ugly.

Even when it comes to carbon emissions the ford TDI is rated at 87g/km and the Prius is 89g/km. I just cant see the advantage in a hybrid.

Regarding driving 500miles to grandma's house. If my family live that far away (actually they live over 1000miles away) I would just fly to there house as its cheaper faster and safer then wasting a day in the car. We are talking 300mile range for some EV's now and its only going to get better.

The last time I drove more than 300 miles in one day was Easter last year on a camping tip. To be honest I would have been happy to drive 250miles then do another 200 miles the following day . I was on vacation and not in a hurry. When I am in a hurry it's going to work- dropping kids at school or driving some place within 100 miles or so to enjoy a nice leisure location on the weekend. Most working people don't have time to drive more than 300 miles Monday - Friday and then when its the weekend most people are not going on drives more then 150 miles from there home. Its really only driving vacations a few times a year where people do the big miles.

I guess It would be interesting to see the real numbers on how many people regularly need to travel more than 300 miles in a day and how often they do that. I feel it would only be a few times a year for most people.unless you are a delivery driver, taxi or live in way out in the country.

kurt.

The Fiesta diesel is not sold in the US, where I am. There is a bit of controversy about why not. Also, the Euro drive cycle that determines mpg is different than the US cycle; the US cycle will return mpg numbers significantly lower. The 50 mpg I quoted for the Prius is based on my ride with a guy who owns one who had 750 miles on the trip odometer (probably weighted to highway miles so would be a bit higher probably) and it was showing an average mpg of 50 or so. Anyway, a minor point. Compared to a Fiesta diesel, a Prius is the mpg loser at any rate. The Prius is a pretty nice car, however, at least in the US. I would be curious to see a side by side comparison of a Prius and whatever a similar trim level Fiesta would sell for. Anyway, if mpg is the name of the game, the Fiesta would win. From a "which car looks better" point of view, well I don't care much about that. They are about equal there as far as I can see. While a diesel has a lower CO2 emission, it has a much higher particulate emission number. Which is worse? Depends if you have a problem with asthma or if you live on an ice berg.

In the US, diesel fuel sells for about $3.75 where I live. Unleaded gasoline is around $3.37. So the difference in mp$ is pretty insignificant. Very few families that I know personally would fly 300 miles instead of driving. A family of 4 would pay well north of a grand in airfare for that flight and there would be a lot of places that you would still have to drive at lease 100 miles after you flew to the closest major airport. And then you'd be renting a car. So anyway, let's call it 200 miles and split the difference. You still aren't going to be driving that in a battery electric with anything commercially available outside of California. The amazing ranges that Tesla is hawking are for ideal drive cycles, no AC/heat.
It is impressive compared to other electrics, but any gas car will do it with gas to spare for a fraction of the price. So on a dollar-to-dollar basis, gas vehicles are still at a very significant advantage. Diesels are even better, if particulates are not a problem for you. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see everyone in a battery electric. I just don't think it will happen anytime in the next 15 years. In my opinion, plug-in and standard hybrids and other high mileage standard fuel vehicles are going to fill in for quite a while. I could be wrong of course. Just ask my wife!

[ProDigit]

There are electric vehicles that are powered by a ~4hp (or was it 4kW?) engine/generator. Those things have quite some torq, but also have amazing MPG ratings (like in the hundreds of MPG's).
The small lawnmower like engine drives a generator to provide a constant source of power. The electrical engine is selected in such a way when the car is driving below ~50-60mph, the energy it uses is about the energy the generator generates. If used faster it will use direct drive to aid the electric motors. When accelerating mostly battery power will be used. When slowing down or standing at a stop light, the battery gets recharged.

I'm not sure what hybrid you're supposed to be talking about, but you comments prove themselves wrong. A 4hp/4Kw drive might take a bicycle to 50-60mph, but no real car I know of. If you want to use 50hp of electricity, you must generate it with more than 50hp because of the loss in heat, the conversion, etc. Some of the experiments home builders did with an 8Kw generator to extend the range of their batteries were unimpressive.

For the Chevy Volt's 149hp electric motor to be getting nearly all its' power from the generator, the generator will need to be powered by 149hp and more. A lawnmower type output would be pretty much useless.

Not really true,
The true potential of a high powered car is only used during acceleration.
Beyond that, it requires very little for an engine to keep it going, or unless you want to drive at ridiculous speeds like over 100mph,and need engine power to overcome wind resistance.
Suppose there where no such thing as acceleration, but every car where to be catapulted on the road.
in order to keep it maintaining the speed, and keep it running uphill without losing too much power, only a small engine is needed.

Further more, the acceleration process is fueled by 25-50% by energy harvested from regenerative breaking.

Also, for most people they only drive uphill a small part of their journey. They are supposed to run purely from battery, but the plugin engine is just used as a range extender, not really as a source of energy. However, if the car is cruising at 30mph through the streets of a city, the 4kw engine in direct drive is strong enough to maintain that speed.

If the car is standing still for 1 minute on a red light, the 4kw generator may have charged more than enough energy in the battery and capacitor, for the acceleration process (which usually take less than ten seconds).
Even if it's a 4kW generator charging 100 seconds, theoretically it generates enough power for a 40kW motor to use that power in 10 seconds.
After those 10 seconds of acceleration,only a fraction of the motor is used. Quite often for cars like the volt, less than 5kW to keep it rolling.

[ProDigit]

Ok I will explain more from a fuel saving point of view lets take a car like a Toyota Prius and compare that to something like a 2012 ford fiesta turbo diesel (not sure what they call then in the US). The Toyota P gives you 65mpg and the ford F gives you 75mpg. Why would I want to put up with all the disadvantages of the Toyota for no fuel saving's not to mention the ford at 22k locally is almost 1/2 the initial purchase price of the Toyota 40k locally and the Fords not a bad looking city hatch and the Toyota is dog ugly.

Even when it comes to carbon emissions the ford TDI is rated at 87g/km and the Prius is 89g/km. I just cant see the advantage in a hybrid.

Regarding driving 500miles to grandma's house. If my family live that far away (actually they live over 1000miles away) I would just fly to there house as its cheaper faster and safer then wasting a day in the car. We are talking 300mile range for some EV's now and its only going to get better.

The last time I drove more than 300 miles in one day was Easter last year on a camping tip. To be honest I would have been happy to drive 250miles then do another 200 miles the following day . I was on vacation and not in a hurry. When I am in a hurry it's going to work- dropping kids at school or driving some place within 100 miles or so to enjoy a nice leisure location on the weekend. Most working people don't have time to drive more than 300 miles Monday - Friday and then when its the weekend most people are not going on drives more then 150 miles from there home. Its really only driving vacations a few times a year where people do the big miles.

I guess It would be interesting to see the real numbers on how many people regularly need to travel more than 300 miles in a day and how often they do that. I feel it would only be a few times a year for most people.unless you are a delivery driver, taxi or live in way out in the country.

kurt.

The Fiesta diesel is not sold in the US, where I am. There is a bit of controversy about why not. Also, the Euro drive cycle that determines mpg is different than the US cycle; the US cycle will return mpg numbers significantly lower. The 50 mpg I quoted for the Prius is based on my ride with a guy who owns one who had 750 miles on the trip odometer (probably weighted to highway miles so would be a bit higher probably) and it was showing an average mpg of 50 or so. Anyway, a minor point. Compared to a Fiesta diesel, a Prius is the mpg loser at any rate. The Prius is a pretty nice car, however, at least in the US. I would be curious to see a side by side comparison of a Prius and whatever a similar trim level Fiesta would sell for. Anyway, if mpg is the name of the game, the Fiesta would win. From a "which car looks better" point of view, well I don't care much about that. They are about equal there as far as I can see. While a diesel has a lower CO2 emission, it has a much higher particulate emission number. Which is worse? Depends if you have a problem with asthma or if you live on an ice berg.

In the US, diesel fuel sells for about $3.75 where I live. Unleaded gasoline is around $3.37. So the difference in mp$ is pretty insignificant. Very few families that I know personally would fly 300 miles instead of driving. A family of 4 would pay well north of a grand in airfare for that flight and there would be a lot of places that you would still have to drive at lease 100 miles after you flew to the closest major airport. And then you'd be renting a car. So anyway, let's call it 200 miles and split the difference. You still aren't going to be driving that in a battery electric with anything commercially available outside of California. The amazing ranges that Tesla is hawking are for ideal drive cycles, no AC/heat.
It is impressive compared to other electrics, but any gas car will do it with gas to spare for a fraction of the price. So on a dollar-to-dollar basis, gas vehicles are still at a very significant advantage. Diesels are even better, if particulates are not a problem for you. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see everyone in a battery electric. I just don't think it will happen anytime in the next 15 years. In my opinion, plug-in and standard hybrids and other high mileage standard fuel vehicles are going to fill in for quite a while. I could be wrong of course. Just ask my wife!

Agree with you,
and concerning this, there is extensive research into combining a 3cyinder diesel engine with an electric engine (14kW I believe), combined they get more than 160mpg, uses regenerative breaking, and battery charged at start. the cost of electricity is nothing compared to gasoline, however the benefit of saving $$ on gasoline does not outweigh the initial salesprice of electrical vehicles, unless you're looking at traveling short distances, and thinking about an electric bike which does not need insurance. You could save a significant sum not to pay insurance (in many cases gas and insurance costs are well above $1500 savings per year)!

[parajared]

EV's aren't as awesome as you would hope.
It all comes down to price and weight. Too much weight and you can't brake, steer, handle. You need something like a pickup truck to handle all the weight. And to push all that weight you need big expensive electronics. Go with the lighter lithium based build and you are talking about cash. Getting 2-4000 cycles on that $5000 battery bay isn't doing anything to save you money, not to mention the price to charge the thing up every night.

If you want to do a small build (ie geo metro, ford festiva, vw rabbit) just save yourself from blowing huge amounts of bucks on a EV conversion and just get a golf cart. Carts can be driven in 25mph zones legally, if you license and register them. You can throw a ton of batteries in the back if you need to go far, and they are already pre-built. Small car builds can go far, or go fast, but not both. Most demonstrate the same specs a run of the mill golf cart can do.

Best EV at the moment = e-bike build. You can't drive a golf cart down the highway shoulder, bike path, or sidewalk, but you sure can on an e-bike. You can fly right under the radar of all the rules, regulations, and government imposed crapola. You can build the things for less than a grand, and if you build them right you can do impressive distances. My personal record is 50miles on a 20aH battery, but I'm sure others have take theirs even further.


Other alternative builds I have done:
Veggie oil was my most successful alternative build before it became popular. I mean it's free fuel just waiting there to be picked up. Restaurants loved offloading the stuff.It meant changing fuel filters, evenings spend doing the impressively dirty job of pumping veggie oil and rebuilding fuel injectors and pumps on occasion, but it was free fuel if you were willing to work for it. No-one is giving up their grease these days though.

Waste transmission fluid was great, it never froze, it always stayed viscous, easy to pump out, and even when the veggie oil craze hit, transmission shops were happy to let the stuff go. Only problem was unlike veggie oil where you could scrape the crud off your oil refining filters, they would just clog up. I could never get the stuff to filter out properly and lost an engine once trying to use 10 micron filter rather than my usual 5 micron.

[Kurt]

$5000 wont get you much battery - perhaps 5- 8kwh of EV grade lithium. The electricity isn't expensive compared to fuel. Actually compared to most peoples car's getting 10lt 100km and a local cost of $1.50lt and electricity cost of $25c kwh it works out about 8 times cheaper (20% deduction for charging losses to fill up on electricity) 25c kwh is RE electricity price to so no coal.

Yes i do like how my ebike projects are stealth they have to be as mine is 10 times over the power limit

Kurt

[ProDigit]

When you're talking about sub 25mph vehicles, it's more affordable to buy an electric (in europe we would call it) 'scooter' than a real one.
The type you don't need no license for, you buy at the same price (between $1000 for the Lead-Acid version, and $2000 for the LiPo4 version), just about the same price as what you pay for a gas powered scooter, minus some maintenance costs,

However what you said parajared, made me think.
Yes, perhaps an electric scooter only consumes a few cent of a dollar per charge, but then again, the electric scooter does not get it's power straight from the ac!
It gets it's power from a transformer/charger. that charger probably consumes more energy than do actual charging (the efficiency of non-digital (aka Solid State) chargers is rather low).

Might be you're pumping a dollar per charge on AC in the charger, and you only get for 50ct on actual power on your ride.

[pdf]

When you're talking about sub 25mph vehicles, it's more affordable to buy an electric (in europe we would call it) 'scooter' than a real one.
The type you don't need no license for, you buy at the same price (between $1000 for the Lead-Acid version, and $2000 for the LiPo4 version), just about the same price as what you pay for a gas powered scooter, minus some maintenance costs,

However what you said parajared, made me think.
Yes, perhaps an electric scooter only consumes a few cent of a dollar per charge, but then again, the electric scooter does not get it's power straight from the ac!
It gets it's power from a transformer/charger. that charger probably consumes more energy than do actual charging (the efficiency of non-digital (aka Solid State) chargers is rather low).

Might be you're pumping a dollar per charge on AC in the charger, and you only get for 50ct on actual power on your ride.

I have one of the meters that plugs into the wall and then you plug your charger into that and it monitors the power coming from the wall. With this, I've measured the efficiency is somewhere slightly over 50% with my charger. However, here where I live, electricity is only 10 cent a kWh. I can get to work and back on my bike for less than 4 cents a day. So if i have a scooter, maybe it doubles. Even at that, it is so cheap you don't even have to account for the cost. So as long as you have a lightweight vehicle, efficiency is still not that big a deal. I really feel ultra-light electrics are in a sweet spot. The additional advantage of the bike is there is no legal mumbo-jumbo or hoops to jump through. They operate in the interstices of the legal/money-grubbing system. When you make it a car, then you loose much of the benefit. You also gain a lot of convenience, so it comes down to what that convenience is worth.

[leffex]

To drive cheap

Since hybrid or electric cars are "special" their price is special. Double price than normal cars in my country. Nissan Leaf 48,500 dollars. ION, EU brand 55,000 dollars. Cheapest second-hand Toyota Proius, 10,000 dollars, average second-hand prices 20,000 dollars.

New cars are coming into the market and are here already. They are almost identical to the Toyota Prious hybrid technology, added that they might have start-stop function and electric assistance system in seperated wheels. BMW, VOLVO and other brands have them and also carries a "special" price on these as they are special. New ones about at cheapest 30,000 dollars and normal prices around 50,000 dollars.

To cope with emissions laws also standards cars being build by the manufacturers are going backwards using 3-cylinder engines for petrol and or diesel .

If I where in the US id buy a sports car Lotus Elise or Toyota MR2 Roadster. They are 40mpg(US) cars. Safe and strong build toyota engines enough to sustain 250,000 miles.
But I like biking with electric assistance.


Why people buy the "costly" and superficial (average Joe or Jane) I don't know. What I know is why I myself don't do or follow this nonsense.

Commercials affect people.
Family have influence over you and your choices
Other people or gangs have influence over you and your choices
Open-mindfullness. How open you are for change

Being less open minded for change and more easely accesible for commercials and all terms makes average Joe following the crowd since this is the EASIEST road to take.

However thinking yourself changes this and average Joe questions your decisions(being insecure himself why you don't follow average understanding of things)

Courtesy, being a human as other humans want you or as yourself?
Have you tried eating with yours hands, different cultures do that and thats average in their culture and they will say the opposite and question you. Why do you eat with tools?
Differnet is good.

I don't like busses, trams, and that all things are tax secured. Transportation IS(existing becuase of taxes). Subsidies above 50% is not long term viable. So the tram user pays 6 dollars for a single ride and another 6 dollars are payed with governemnt money. hmmm yeah, and I can drive with my car for 1 dollar of fuel money, park my car and pay another dollar for the same trip. If I was bicycling I'd pay 20cents. However what is great. Private companies have trips in the 100-200 miles cost 15-30 dollars which seems not be subsidised. That's better than local authorities having busses driving around and wasting money.

My country has 33% tax and after that the paycheck is in the pocket. Taxes are also additional 25% for everything you buy. But now I save 5 dollars a day. yippi Im biking and today ill go with try my 20A after 2 weeks of great working 16A controller. Soon my protection gear comes and I will start full throttle commute

[Punx0r]

Lotus Elise or Toyota MR2 Roadster. They are 40mpg(US) cars.

The Elises have always had very low emissions, which annoyed some of the eco-hippy people because it's a sportscar

But it's a powerful demonstration that low weight is a very good thing!

[IBScootn]

This will be my next car and it will still only have two wheels:
http://Www.litmotors.com

The C-1 might just have me retiring my e-moto as it might be even more efficient, more comfortable, and much safer. With tax incentatives in Colorado that $20K price tax will be more like $12K. Can't wait for these to be in production.