DIY Aptera knockoff?

[Hillhater]

What do you see as a budget for this "knockoff". It is a tadpole trike for 2 - side by side.. "" Aptera" type vehicle "

you cannot attempt to estimate a budget until you have a fairly detailed specification including speed, range, payload expectations etc.
If you start with a budget, you will end up with a vehicle that meets your budget , ..not to your requirements.
... Project basics 101 !

[TylerDurden]

I would also suggest that designing/building be approached in a scaleable manner that reasonably allows the most people to build and/or collaborate, while letting nutters go over the top.

Off-the-shelf components and standard materials for basic building - nutters can use unobtainium and Ferrari/CISRO motors.

[Thud]

Aptera=
superior aerodymanics
composit construction
cool to a fault (if your into that kind of thing)
everything else is standard 3-wheeled Ev construction.
the longer I look at the RQ riley designs the more reasonable they look.

[Harold in CR]

If anyone is seriously interested in starting this project, here are some specs to begin the figures and start up budget. I have been away from the States, and, have no access to supplies, but, I know places in S Florida I used to deal with.

Dimensions:
53" high x 91.0" wide x 173" long
111" wheelbase
80.5" front track.

Other specs:
0.15 Coefficient of drag
5" ground clearance
1500 lbs curb wt.

Electric motor torque: 60FtLb torque
110v 15A charge time: 8 hrs.
Battery output: 10-13 KWh battery pack.
Battery voltage: 336V DC Nominal Traction Voltage
Transmission: Gear box 10:1 ratio
Battery Type: Lithium Iron Phosphate

Chassis:
Front Suspension: Independent unequal length A-arm
Rear Suspension: Swing Arm
Steering: Manual Steering, tilt steering column
Brakes: Manual Brakes, dual circuit brake hydraulics, mechanical brake proportioning, 3-wheel disc
Wheels: 14-inch High Strength Stamped Steel wheels
Size: P165/65R14

Performance:
Range: Up to 100 miles per charge


To make this a "Near" clone, I was thinking to research tail light shapes, head light covers, windshield shapes, and such, to buy after market to get the design formed up.

Who wants to be the first to put definite buying or funding plans on the table ?? If this is done 1-off, there is no "Company" to hold liable and buyer sponsor gets the first one as a "prototype. I doubt if this will end up selling millions, but, it's the only way for those with REAL interest to actually have a clone of sorts.

Need more interest before I can put more thoughts into this. Talk is cheap. I would have to live IN the shop or someones garage to be able to do my part. Hot dogs and beans would carry me a long ways.

I have been toying with selling my farm and going my separate way with my ideas. Just would like to be a part of something like this project.

[jmygann]

Reverse trikes have been designed and built for years ... some are electric. We are not trying to re-invent the wheel. I feel a frame builder interested in the project is needed more than someone playing with CAD on their computer.


http://switchvehicles.com/ .... " Our mission is to build safe, simple, durable electric vehicles that every American can afford to own."

"Toyota, Chevy and Nissan have helped increase demand for electric cars, but their prices are too high for the average American. There’s a gap between what the big car makers are selling and what most Americans can afford. Enter Switch Vehicles. We fill this gap with a locally-built, reliable electric vehicle for daily transportation.

Initially, the Switch will be available as a kit that is shipped to the owner for do-it-yourself assembly."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2bwcHod ... page#t=55s

[youtube]U2bwcHodp5w&feature=player_profilepage#t=55s[/youtube]

[TylerDurden]

Reverse trikes have been designed and built for years ... some are electric.

That must be why we see so many.

We are not trying to re-invent the wheel. I feel a frame builder interested in the project is needed more than someone playing with CAD on their computer.

Tell that to Greyb.org.

A new common platform is required, like the VW pan from the kitcar era; but this era needs an open-source hybrid/EV platform. With a simple design, framebuilders worldwide can supply the base.

BTW... The Aptera was a four season vehicle, not an electric dune buggy.

[patrickza]

I quite like the switch, it ticks my boxes, but mainly because I'll need a central driving position as I currently live in a right hand drive country but would switch to left and most likely back and forth in my future. Also 3 seats is enough I think.

How many kwh's of lithium do you think the front battery box would hold?

[Hillhater]

The Switch appears to be a very nicely engineered package , but....
.. It would need an enclosed bodywork to meet "everyday" practicality and reasonable aero efficiency to improve power usage .
Maybe that is an oportunity to "personalise" the vehicles, but i suspect many builders would want the option of shop made bodywork. Have Switch planned that option ?
Also, unless the chassis are available at a sensible price ( shipping may be expensive also ?) , its design using many compound curved tubes would make it an impractical self build project for the average home garage builder,
A simpler chassis design / construction would be needed to make it workable for most amateur builders.

[jmygann]

What do you see as a budget for this "knockoff". It is a tadpole trike for 2 - side by side.. "" Aptera" type vehicle "

you cannot attempt to estimate a budget until you have a fairly detailed specification including speed, range, payload expectations etc.
If you start with a budget, you will end up with a vehicle that meets your budget , ..not to your requirements.
... Project basics 101 !

Speed - 30 mph
Range 50 miles

2 passengers (preferable side by side)- 360 lbs

tadpole style

Rolling frame only , 2000 watt motor to be supplied

Curb Weight ... 280 lbs without batteries

[TylerDurden]

Speed - 30 mph
Range 50 miles

2 passengers (preferable side by side)- 360 lbs

tadpole style

Rolling frame only , 2000 watt motor to be supplied

Curb Weight ... 280 lbs without batteries

That's a golfcart with a missing wheel.

[Hillhater]

Speed - 30 mph
Range 50 miles

2 passengers (preferable side by side)- 360 lbs

tadpole style

Rolling frame only , 2000 watt motor to be supplied

Curb Weight ... 280 lbs without batteries

Hmm ? ....those may be you requirements, but i dont think that would replicate what the Aptera was, ..or what many others would expect from a daily driver EV.
Personally , i would want more than 30 mph and a 50 mile range, but even at 30 mph, i doubt 2kw would do it for a vehicle with a gross weight of 750+ lbs !

[michaelplogue]

Howdy all! Been a while since I've posted here - real life keeps interfering....

Anyway, I've started playing again with trike designs, and I saw this thread. Here's one of my recent ones, one that should be readily adaptable for full enclosure.










Still needs quite a bit of refinement, but I'm so far liking where it's going......

.

[jmygann]

A 2 passenger electric tadpole trike (tandem )
side by side is considered "sociable"

certified, insured, registered and licensed as of August 9, 2011.

http://www.nappepin.com/LithiumHawk.htm

[jmygann]

Howdy all! Been a while since I've posted here - real life keeps interfering....

Anyway, I've started playing again with trike designs, and I saw this thread. Here's one of my recent ones, one that should be readily adaptable for full enclosure.




Still needs quite a bit of refinement, but I'm so far liking where it's going......

.

Need to keep weight inside triangle to prevent roll over

[webfootguy]

I have a Twike designed in the mid 90's. It weights 520lbs with 112lbs of battery (and no driver or passengers). It is made from aircraft aluminum and plastic. Not as fancy as the Aptera but highly efficient for a commuter vehicle. I have some pictures that were taken at the factory in Switzerland in 1998 where it was assembled. The pictures show the vehicle without the body and show the design more clearly.

http://public.fotki.com/webfootguy/electric-vehicle/twikeswissfactory1998/

[michaelplogue]

Need to keep weight inside triangle to prevent roll over

 

Good point.  However, any side-by-side passenger arrangement makes this pretty much impossible - unless the people are sitting directly on toP of the front wheels (like how the Trimuter is designed).  You have to take into account whatever front suspension you use, as this takes up space.

In this particular design, I'm using a stock VW Beetle front end axle.  So, with a side-by-side system, you simply cannot move the passengers any more forward without their feet interfering with the wheel wells.  Even a short double A-arm suspension is going to take a good amount of space - unless you want a significantly wider wheel-base. This is certainly doable. However, I'm trying to design something using as much stock mechanics as possible. Designing a suspension system can be a bitch to engineer correctly.

On the other hand, if you go with a tandem setup then you end up lengthening the vehicle (or raising the position of the passenger as in the post above, effectively raising the COG) - and you end up with similar instability problems.  Unless of course you go with a tilter - which adds significantly to the complexity.

So it's a catch-22 situation.

[michaelplogue]

I should also mention - the bulk of the batteries are located in the front end..... This helps balance things out.

[Harold in CR]

Michael, have you messed at all with a leaning reverse trike/moto set up ??

[michaelplogue]

Michael, have you messed at all with a leaning reverse trike/moto set up ??

Actually, I have. Been playing with several different scenarios of powered-type tilting mechanisms. I'll ultimately post my results as soon as I've played out any ideas that I've come up with and run some virtual simulations. The trick would be to be to find servos or stepper motors that ar powerful and fast enough to get the job done. Right now, I'm just trying to work out the optimal mechanics. One thing I don't know is how much tilt is really needed. Some systems I've worked out are good for a 30 degree tilt (from vertical), whereas others are good for around 20 degrees. I guess it all depends on the ultimate speed and turning radius. I would think for a standard commuting vehicle, 20 degrees ought to be enough, but I just don't know at this stage.

I think I've also come up with a good tilt/steering 'wheel' system. I'd like to use a computerized system to determine tilt based on inertia sensors, but everything I've read seems to point that that would be a very complex system, and prone to error when faced with 'bad things' such as side skidding. So I'm thinking of manual input for the tilt and steer at the same time - just as you would use instinctively when riding a bike or motorcycle. It's a bit 'sci-fi' and not at all like any traditional hand steering system. I'm still mulling the mechanics, but I think it's doable.

I'll eventually post in a new thread once I come up with some viable theories.

[jmygann]

"Conclusion

Although Jetrike MkII is a FWD tilting delta trike, I am switching to a tadpole configuration for my next design. The reason for this is that the forward CoG only provides a narrow tilt range with a small margin for error. Additionally when the trike is stationary it can only tilt a little bit before the trike tips over."

http://jetrike.com/tadpole-or-delta.html

[patrickza]

A 2 passenger electric tadpole trike (tandem )
side by side is considered "sociable"

certified, insured, registered and licensed as of August 9, 2011.

http://www.nappepin.com/LithiumHawk.htm

So cool, I'd love to be able to build that. I can't wait to see how the bodywork ends up!

[TylerDurden]

Welcome back, Michael.

I am imagining a mechanical system that limits tilt based on wheel speed using simple centrifugal flyweights.

[Harold in CR]

That "Lithium Hawk" build, is actually a purchased Chassis, from a guy in Michigan. It is a "Free to Caster" design, that would be great for the Aptera Clone. No matter, front-back seating, or, side X side seating, this looks to be the way to go. On the EV Album, he proposes to sell the chassis for " under $5000.00. That was in 2009.He shows his build, and, with Lead batteries and motor, it weighs under 600#.

[Hillhater]

Harold,
i think you may be confusing the "Lithium Hawk" with his previous "Bug E" build which was based on a bought out chassis.
The Hawk is a scratch built design. ( but he did sub out the fabrication of his chassis design to a pro welder) ..
...and is not yet a finished project ( last blog entry Nov 2011)

[fizzit]

Since this thread is about building an Aptera knockoff, I just want to say that Aptera isn't a tilting trike and I think that a tilting vehicle would be very different from the Aptera. I think that Aptera was smart to have small front wheels that are outside of the body, to make the trike more stable. You might not be able to use stock steering and suspension components for this, though.