R³ Hybrid Technology Solutions conversion process explained

[Persanity]

.... One idea I have been toying with is replacing the floor in non uni-body vehicles with a uni-body type floor made with stamped structural components based on uni-body structural details taken from the worlds safest uni-body car, no idea what vehicle that'd be just yet, with high crash test rating.....

Sorry but, by definition a "unibody" design depends on the totality of the body structure for its strength...door pillars, window surrounds, roof panel etc, etc. You CANNOT just take the floor pan design from a unibody and use it under a set of body panels.
..BIG Fail !
I suggest you focus on your drivetrain package .

Not to argue....

Based on the definition of a uni-body design I could do exactly that.

Do you think a S10 truck cab isn't designed exactly like a uni-body? Except without stamped frame rail in the floor of course.

If you made a new stamping of a S10 floor designed to have the uni-body body frame rails built into it, braced the inner body and roof, then took the original floor out and replaced it with the new uni-body floor the cab would be just as ridged as a uni-body car. Car and truck bodies aren't made in one piece, uni-body or not.

.... Lower overall vehicle weight is achieved by getting rid of the full frame on non uni-body designs, like the mini-trucks do with custom "dune buggy" tubular frames. Using stamped parts to replace vehicle stamped parts is better then having a tubular frame because you can rapid prototype in a computer with stamped parts......

Are you aware of the tooling and manufacturing set up costs to produce "stamped parts" ?.
..you would require huge volumes of any one design for this approach to become economical...even assuming you could produce an effective design without expensive prototypes and testing with minimal redesign/re tooling costs.
I suggest you focus on your drivetrain package .

You seem to have a pre occupation with rigid chassis, rigid axle, heavy vehicles. .. IE:- commercial Trucks & Vans ! ..why ??
If you really.... "want to make it available to the average Joe for as cheap as possible".... you need to familiarise yourself with the type of vehicles "average Joe" drives ...and...... focus on your drivetrain package . !

Yes, I am aware of the massive costs involved. I have developed a new stamping process/type of stamping machine for rapid prototyping of full sized car parts. I have a small non-computer controlled prototype of a much larger computer controlled machine I desperately need to get patented. One more reason I am in involved in a start-up accelerator program.

All my conversions would most certainly not have rigid axles. They would be 4 wheel constant variable axles with motorized differential, like the rear wheels of a Toyota Highlander only AWD.

[REdiculous]

As with any electric vehicle there is instant power from stand still. Picture the engine and generator as a 100% constant power output battery that can deliver the maximum amount of power the motor can ever use at one given moment .

I actually can run a engine like that. Thats the idea behind the concept of this drivetrain. Its is the unique aspect of this project that you won't find anywhere else.

How is there instant power from a stand still?

Newer generators auto-throttle based on electrical demand. Is that what you're talking about, or do you have a magic flywheel in there?...

I'm still lost - I don't see the advantage of this system. Why carry a 100+ HP engine if it's idle most of the time?..

[bigmoose]

Persanity do you understand the imputed liability issues with the things you are proposing? If not, get a lawyer friend so that you do not waste your lifetime...

[Hillhater]

Do you think a S10 truck cab isn't designed exactly like a uni-body? Except without stamped frame rail in the floor of course.......

NO they are not. The designers of an S10 cab do not have to consider structural loading. That is confined to the chassis members. That is the whole point of rail chassis design,..to take strength (weight) out of body sections where it is not needed.

...If you made a new stamping of a S10 floor designed to have the uni-body body frame rails built into it, braced the inner body and roof, then took the original floor out and replaced it with the new uni-body floor the cab would be just as ridged as a uni-body car.......

You need to look into this more ...A LOT more. !

.... I have developed a new stamping process/type of stamping machine for rapid prototyping of full sized car parts. I have a small non-computer controlled prototype of a much larger computer controlled machine I desperately need to get patented. ........

you need to decide which of your undeveloped ideas you want to focus on first

...All my conversions would most certainly not have rigid axles. They would be 4 wheel constant variable axles with motorized differential, like the rear wheels of a Toyota Highlander only AWD.

There you go again with your 4x4 truck thought train.
What happened to average joe and his FWD commuter hatchback ?

[Persanity]

Do you think a S10 truck cab isn't designed exactly like a uni-body? Except without stamped frame rail in the floor of course.......

NO they are not. The designers of an S10 cab do not have to consider structural loading. That is confined to the chassis members. That is the whole point of rail chassis design,..to take strength (weight) out of body sections where it is not needed.

...If you made a new stamping of a S10 floor designed to have the uni-body body frame rails built into it, braced the inner body and roof, then took the original floor out and replaced it with the new uni-body floor the cab would be just as ridged as a uni-body car.......

You need to look into this more ...A LOT more. !

Have you dismantled entire cars panel by panel for scrap metal?

Uni-body or truck cab, they are designed exactly the same.

A number of smaller panels comes together to make a bigger structure with rigid elements to increase structural integrity.

Uni-body designs have more structural elements in more places then non-uni-body designs, that and that alone is the only difference there is. If you disagree with that basic truth then please go watch videos on how the two are made.

IF and I do mean IF I where to go that route, the replacement parts would be designed in a computer. They would be structurally load tested and it would not just be the floor of the vehicle replaced. The the A pillars of the windows and b pillars on the doors would all be reinforced. Like if you added a roll cage, but done with stamped part meant to fit the vehicle the way a replacement panel would when doing bodywork.

...All my conversions would most certainly not have rigid axles. They would be 4 wheel constant variable axles with motorized differential, like the rear wheels of a Toyota Highlander only AWD.

There you go again with your 4x4 truck thought train.
What happened to average joe and his FWD commuter hatchback ?

Well that is simple. He gets a differential motor in the front of the vehicle instead of the rear.

As somebody not disciplined entirely in any one given area I have a unique view from many different areas of knowledge.

I don't claim to know everything about everything but I know a lot about enough to invent and innovate.

Aaron Coach

[Persanity]

You see the sub frame that the motor is mounted on?
Every car has some variation of that.
You see how the suspension is part of that sub frame?
Think along those lines for mounting my system to the car but with universal linkage for mounting in any passenger car.
The differential motor replaces the transmission in FWD & RWD conversions, its just in a different location based on original drive train or customers desire. There is no reason a FWD cant be RWD or RWD a FWD. Of course for universal fit, why not make all conversions AWD?

Another thing about the uni-body stuff.

All cars are built on certain architecture.

Like the F-body cars are Camaro,Firebird and Trans-am. They share a floor pan with the G-body cars if I'm not mistaken.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GM_platforms

These cars are so much more universal then most people realize.

The PT cruiser has the floor pan of a Dodge neon.


It wouldn't be hard to create a uni-body platform to convert light duty trucks like the s-10 to a uni-body design.
The mini-truck people use very minimal square tubing to make frames for their conversions to a mini-truck from a full size truck.

My background isn't EV stuff, its DIY auto repair and artistic design (And plan-o-gram design and implementation but that not really relevant to this stuff). There are plenty of artists that design or redesign a car and have others do the fabrication.

My artist is kinetic sculptures. I combined those principles and my automotive experience with my DIY repair knowledge and with my desire to be green and go electric with my inability to use an EV because of how much I drive in a day to form the system I enter in the MassChallenge I am describing here.

Aaron Coach.

[Hillhater]

There is no reason a FWD cant be RWD or RWD a FWD. Of course for universal fit, why not make all conversions AWD?

possibly because of added complexity, higher cost, lower efficiency, reduced passenger & luggage space...to name a few.

...I don't claim to know everything about everything but I know a lot about enough to invent and innovate.
Aaron Coach

" a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing " !
I dont see much invention or innovation here,..just wishful dreaming and poorly researched thinking. !
Carry on as you wish my friend. you have a long / hard/ frustrating / expensive ..learning experience ahead of you.
And do let us know how your application is recieved.

[REdiculous]

It wouldn't be hard to create a uni-body platform to convert light duty trucks like the s-10 to a uni-body design.

My stepdad totally wrecked my S10 a couple days ago and I still wouldn't let you near it. There's no reason to mess with the body, floor boards or cab. My truck is totally hosed but the cab is the same shape/size as it was before the wreck.."like new".

The S10 would be a good platform to play with, because they really are "light industrial" trucks, but there's no way I'd change the structure or try to make it better. It'd be a fat waste of time/effort/money.

What you need is a drop-in replacement for the engine. Keep the manual transmission...don't convert automatics...make it easier on yourself.

[Persanity]

I am sorry you don't understand what I'm trying to achieve.

All the concept are sound. Spend a little doing research into kit cars and mini-trucks.

There are no new concepts here, other then the engine to generator components, besides putting it all into one package for turnkey hybrid conversions.

If these type of hybrids didn't save money then the military wouldn't use them in environments where its logistically too expensive to convoy large amounts of fuel.

UPS, USPS, Coca-Cola, Fed-Ex all are converting their fleets to hybrid drive because these systems save money in start stop delivery situations.

I'm glad that 90% of people can use pure EV 90% of the time. I am not one of those people.

A parallel hybrid with an electric transmission that has a properly sized ICE/generator combo has better power density then any battery.

The Toyota 80KW/150KW differential motor (I forget exact power output) is about the same size as a normal differential.
They make ideal motors for my conversion system. Again keeping inline with reuse. repurpose. retrofit.

Why would having front and rear drive motors decrease passenger compartment size or be less efficient?

Two motors would be better. You can run higher voltage into each at lower amps for same overall output.
At a lower motor temperature too because the conversion of electricity into motion is distributed between two motors for less heat losses in the motor winding.

Right?

That is how I understood the reasoning behind why Toyota uses two motors instead of a traditional differential for 4WD/AWD in the hybrid Highlander.

Luckily I'll have to access to the resources of MIT students through the MassChallenge accelerator do the actual CAD and
engineering work. So I won't be spending any money myself except to go up to Cambridge Massachusetts from Watertown Connecticut.

Anyway, The technology from this system if it was being commercially produced would translate over to pure EV too.

There would be no reason that a kit purchaser couldn't built a pure EV with it. Just don't purchase a generator system and buy your own battery system.

Aaron Coach.

It wouldn't be hard to create a uni-body platform to convert light duty trucks like the s-10 to a uni-body design.

My stepdad totally wrecked my S10 a couple days ago and I still wouldn't let you near it. There's no reason to mess with the body, floor boards or cab. My truck is totally hosed but the cab is the same shape/size as it was before the wreck.."like new".

The S10 would be a good platform to play with, because they really are "light industrial" trucks, but there's no way I'd change the structure or try to make it better. It'd be a fat waste of time/effort/money.

What you need is a drop-in replacement for the engine. Keep the manual transmission...don't convert automatics...make it easier on yourself.

Sorry your step-dad crashed your truck, That really sucks.
Incase it hasn't been clear I'm not doing these conversions myself. My company will be. I'll hire the right people for the job.

I am a designer, not an engineer, of this system. Does it have bugs? Distinct possibility.

My business may be in the start up stage, but this is happening. Its not a crazy dream.

I have no definitive plans for the chassis for my conversion yet. I just want it to be as universal and modular as possible for the largest possible usage across car platforms.

The prototype will be some type of a chassis that in some way will adapt a S10 cab to a alternative under carriage design.

Probably a tubular roll cage like frame.

[TylerDurden]

Its not a crazy dream...

Of course it is.





But plenty of crazy shit makes money - although, I'm not sure there are enough people in this country willing to pay what this conversion will cost.

[Persanity]

Without batteries I'd say $8,000-$12,000 for a full conversion.
That isn't bad for a unlimited range extended electric vehicle.

Picture it as a pure EV with a battery you can fill up with gas for more range. That is exactly how I want to design it anyway.
Of course batteries can be added to make a plug-in hybrid solution with limited electric range for additional costs.

All the parts used in my conversions are a new use for existing auto parts. It keeps parts costs and overhead way down for us by not needing to have parts manufactured specifically for us or needing a plethora of parts for different model cars.

If I was saying I wanted to do all this exactly how I've said with the exception of saying I had a parallel plug-in hybrid conversion system with a limited electric range, instead of saying I had a battery-less hybrid conversion system, I don't think people would be as critical of what me and my company are trying /want to do.

Aaron Coach.

I look at all these parts and systems like lego bricks. You can build anything from legos.

Please don't think I am a ego maniac either. If you think I can't do something I say, Explain why you think I can't, Please.

Look at the length of my posts. I really endeavor to try to explain all the thinking behind my ideas to people here. Even if I end up saying the same things in different ways.

[Hillhater]

The idea is to increase fuel efficiency of a existing vehicle by turning it into a parallel hybrid with no mechanical connection to the road. ..

Again your thinking is confused..
By definition a PARALLEL Hybrid has the ability to be driven by either the ICE, or the Electric drive, OR both simultaneously. !

[Persanity]

You know, Your right.

I guess Oshkosh engineers got it wrong when they called the ProPulse system a parallel hybrid drivetrain. Thats kind of funny I guess.

(from Wikipedia)

Series hybrid:

A series- or serial-hybrid vehicle has also been referred to as an Extended Range Electric Vehicle or Range-Extended Electric Vehicle (EREV/REEV); however, range extension can be accomplished with either series or parallel hybrid layouts.
Series-hybrid vehicles are driven by the electric motor with no mechanical connection to the engine. Instead there is an engine tuned for running a generator when the battery pack energy supply isn't sufficient for demands.
This arrangement is not new, being common in diesel-electric locomotives and ships. Ferdinand Porsche used this setup in the early 20th century in racing cars, effectively inventing the series-hybrid arrangement. Porsche named the arrangement "System Mixt". A wheel hub motor arrangement, with a motor in each of the two front wheels was used, setting speed records.

This arrangement was sometimes referred to as an electric transmission, as the electric generator and driving motor replaced a mechanical transmission. The vehicle could not move unless the internal combustion engine was running.
The setup has never proved to be suitable for production cars, however it is currently being revisited by several manufacturers. In 1997 Toyota released the first series-hybrid bus sold in Japan.[28] Meanwhile, GM will introduce the Chevy Volt EREV in 2010, aiming for an all-electric range of 40 miles,[29] and a price tag of around $40,000.[30] Supercapacitors combined with a lithium ion battery bank have been used by AFS Trinity in a converted Saturn Vue SUV vehicle. Using supercapacitors they claim up to 150 mpg in a series-hybrid arrangement

From both the lack of interest from the DIY community I changed my entry for MassChallenge to converting fleets of passenger vehicles and non-diesel vehicles for business owner.

All the other hybrid conversion companies, except Poulsen Propulsion, convert fleets of heavy duty trucks and big rigs style vehicles. I guess I just found my market! I'd still sell parts to any DIY community though as it is still a potential market. But by developing the technology for passenger fleets I can get some good money for R & D.

[mr.electric]

Personality ,What is the vehicle Pictured?

[Persanity]

http://www.evengineering.com.au/media-content/

[adrian_sm]

I nearly worked for them. A good mate heads up the mech engineering on it.

BTW. A major constraint of the design they chose was to minimise any structural changes to the car body.

[Persanity]

I've done some stuff with mini-trucks and none electric or hybrid drive, drive train swapping.
I was thinking a universal solution for all types of vehicles would work, but if I have to have something designed for FWD and RWD applications then so be it.

I've decided to focus on passenger fleets comprising vehicles that are not currently being converted. Seems a more lucrative market.

A good design would minimize structural changes, I was trying to find a way to avoid structural changes by replacing the original structure. (bad way to describe that) As in I knew it needed reinforcement after the original frame was removed but didn't want to add a full dune buggy style roll cage to the design. The solution was replica part stamped with structural elements designed in a computer program to be safe and rigid.

Aaron Coach

[TylerDurden]

Without batteries I'd say $8,000-$12,000 for a full conversion.
That isn't bad for a unlimited range extended electric vehicle....

Please don't think I am a ego maniac either. If you think I can't do something I say, Explain why you think I can't, Please.

I don't think the numbers add up:

-I don't believe that the custom conversion can gain more than 15% average fuel economy.
-I don't believe a custom conversion with a secret-sauce can be done for less than $25K, even without batteries.
-I don't believe anyone will pay $25K for 15% better fuel economy on their current car.

If a gallon of fuel costs $6 and the typical guzzler gets ~15mpg, that's about $8K in fuel costs (20 thousand miles/yr). 15% of $8K = $1200.

That's about a 21yr break-even for the owner.

[adrian_sm]

Without batteries I'd say $8,000-$12,000 for a full conversion.
That isn't bad for a unlimited range extended electric vehicle....

Please don't think I am a ego maniac either. If you think I can't do something I say, Explain why you think I can't, Please.

I don't think the numbers add up:

-I don't believe that the custom conversion can gain more than 15% average fuel economy.
-I don't believe a custom conversion with a secret-sauce can be done for less than $25K, even without batteries.
-I don't believe anyone will pay $25K for 15% better fuel economy on their current car.

If a gallon of fuel costs $6 and the typical guzzler gets ~15mpg, that's about $8K in fuel costs (20 thousand miles/yr). 15% of $8K = $1200.

That's about a 21yr break-even for the owner.

And you still just have a gas/petrol powered car, without the advantageous of a plug-in electric. No thanks.

[Persanity]

Luckily I've researched the technology. Luckily others that know what Im talking about have researched the technology.

I've been contacted by a few high profile organizations in the plug-in and EREV aftermarket industry.

Just because you can't use it and won't buy it does not mean it doesn't have relevant applications beyond YOUR driving habits.

Fleet owners pay $100,000 for high end conversions on fleet trucks for 10% savings in fuel.

Oshkosh can get up to 50% better fuel economy with ProPulse equipped vehicle, in CERTAIN applications, over a non-hybrid version of the same vehicle.

Thats why I am now focused on fleets of passenger vehicles. Much better opportunities for a start-up in that untapped market.

Don't worry, My company will still do custom and customer applications.

Aaron Coach.


Worlds fastest EREV anyone?

[TylerDurden]

Fleet owners pay $100,000 for high end conversions on fleet trucks for 10% savings in fuel.

Oshkosh can get up to 50% better fuel economy with ProPulse equipped, in CERTAIN applications, over a non-hybrid version of same vehicle.

Thats why I am now focused on fleets of passenger vehicles. Much better opportunities for a start-up in that untapped market.

The weight penalty for a truck adaptation is vastly different than the weight penalty for a sedan/small-truck adaptation. That's why you see the tech in very heavy applications, but not in sedan/wagon applications.

So, I doubt the conversion will yield enough gain to warrant the expense, particularly since small vehicle fleets don't keep the vehicles for more than a few years. At that point, why convert, rather than purchasing all-new with light weight, good aerodynamics and diesel power? A VW TDI wagon costs ~$25K usd, brand-new and full warranty.

[mr.electric]

I don't think the numbers add up:

-I don't believe that the custom conversion can gain more than 15% average fuel economy.
-I don't believe a custom conversion with a secret-sauce can be done for less than $25K, even without batteries.
-I don't believe anyone will pay $25K for 15% better fuel economy on their current car.

If a gallon of fuel costs $6 and the typical guzzler gets ~15mpg, that's about $8K in fuel costs (20 thousand miles/yr). 15% of $8K = $1200.

That's about a 21yr break-even for the owner.

Tyler, I agree with your bullet points. I would not be surprised if someone could prove one of your three points wrong with a small production run of special equipment but overall those three points are the reality.

[adrian_sm]

Thats why I am now focused on fleets of passenger vehicles. Much better opportunities for a start-up in that untapped market.

Now that I agree with. If you can get a fleet of conversions, you might have a business case. But I would still recommend you heed Big Mooses advice above.

Persanity do you understand the imputed liability issues with the things you are proposing? If not, get a lawyer friend so that you do not waste your lifetime...

The advice on this front may drastically change what is viable, and therefore what you should propose in the contest.

Don't worry, My company will still do custom and customer applications.

I wouldn't if I was you. You are more likely to succeed if you focus your energies and pursue one concept vigorously.

All the best, Adrian

[Lock]

If a gallon of fuel costs $6...

Hi TD

If chasing military budgets, I read somewhere that the US folks in Afghanistan were trucking in fuel from Pakistan so by the end of that trip transportation costs drove fuel costs waaay over $6 a gallon...

Lock

[Persanity]

Thank you all for your great points.

I should be paying you guys!

This thread has become what amounts to a great consumer focus group discussion.

First I've turned my attentions completely to the drive train aspects of fleet conversions as I don't believe fleet owners would care about sports suspension style handling or find it an appealing option in a complete conversion solution as the point is to save on operating costs and complexity adds cost.

To that end I will focus on a transmission replacement system with a different, but still universal, solution for all FWD & RWD applications.
I plan to reuse the original engine but offer rebuilding service with option to convert to flex fuel or bio-diesel operation.

Yes, I am aware bio-diesel means replacing the entire engine and not just the fuel injection system like when converting to flex fuel.

Second I have completely redesigned the conceptual engine to generator coupling system to be easier to prototype, test and mass produce.

Instead of aiming to keep both the ICE & generator at a constant RPM independent of each other,
I will instead focus on keeping the engine at a 100% exact RPM 100% independent of the generators RPM, which is based on variable power draw.

Basically the engine never gets bogged down so it saves even more fuel because the driver and road conditions can't directly effect fuel economy.

Using a serial hybrid range extended engine style configuration with no mechanical connection to the road seems ideal to that end.

Third Fleet owners replace the fleets every few years to avoid maintenance costs on those vehicles.

It is actually cheaper for them to get brand new 100% mechanically sound vehicles every few year then doing maintenance to keep the existing vehicles mechanically sound.

As somebody that would and has replaced the engine/transmission in vehicles they've owned when they break instead of getting a new vehicle, I find that concept utterly ridiculous and wasteful.

Every part on a vehicle can be swapped out or customized with the right skills and equipment. I see no exceptions to that rule, do you?

The custom car aftermarket rely on that basic truth to maintain a billion dollar industry.



TylerDurden,
You reference weight penalties, Are you referring to weight from the conversions components? Or the weight in the big rig diesel hybrids?

As the hybrid components replace existing components the weight gains are minimal from the parts swap/conversion process itself.

The real weight gain in conversions like this would be from a few hundred pounds, or more, of lithium (if lithium can even be afforded, if not, you need well over 500lbs of batteries for a conversion), which my conversions don't need.

Though to be honest I am thinking a very small battery pack that can provide a few miles of range in emergency situations would be the best possible use of any batteries in a new or more conventional hybrid design.

As my company is still in the start-up phase I have a unique opportunity to redesign everything, in my head, over and over and over till it can be easily manufactured.

No specs or ideas are set in stone yet. After finding the best possibly way of doing this I will start contacting metal fabrication shops.

Aaron Coach.
Reuse. Repurpose. Retrofit.