R³ Hybrid Technology Solutions conversion process explained

[adrian_sm]

I nearly worked for them. A good mate heads up the mech engineering on it.

BTW. A major constraint of the design they chose was to minimise any structural changes to the car body.

[Persanity]

I've done some stuff with mini-trucks and none electric or hybrid drive, drive train swapping.
I was thinking a universal solution for all types of vehicles would work, but if I have to have something designed for FWD and RWD applications then so be it.

I've decided to focus on passenger fleets comprising vehicles that are not currently being converted. Seems a more lucrative market.

A good design would minimize structural changes, I was trying to find a way to avoid structural changes by replacing the original structure. (bad way to describe that) As in I knew it needed reinforcement after the original frame was removed but didn't want to add a full dune buggy style roll cage to the design. The solution was replica part stamped with structural elements designed in a computer program to be safe and rigid.

Aaron Coach

[TylerDurden]

Without batteries I'd say $8,000-$12,000 for a full conversion.
That isn't bad for a unlimited range extended electric vehicle....

Please don't think I am a ego maniac either. If you think I can't do something I say, Explain why you think I can't, Please.

I don't think the numbers add up:

-I don't believe that the custom conversion can gain more than 15% average fuel economy.
-I don't believe a custom conversion with a secret-sauce can be done for less than $25K, even without batteries.
-I don't believe anyone will pay $25K for 15% better fuel economy on their current car.

If a gallon of fuel costs $6 and the typical guzzler gets ~15mpg, that's about $8K in fuel costs (20 thousand miles/yr). 15% of $8K = $1200.

That's about a 21yr break-even for the owner.

[adrian_sm]

Without batteries I'd say $8,000-$12,000 for a full conversion.
That isn't bad for a unlimited range extended electric vehicle....

Please don't think I am a ego maniac either. If you think I can't do something I say, Explain why you think I can't, Please.

I don't think the numbers add up:

-I don't believe that the custom conversion can gain more than 15% average fuel economy.
-I don't believe a custom conversion with a secret-sauce can be done for less than $25K, even without batteries.
-I don't believe anyone will pay $25K for 15% better fuel economy on their current car.

If a gallon of fuel costs $6 and the typical guzzler gets ~15mpg, that's about $8K in fuel costs (20 thousand miles/yr). 15% of $8K = $1200.

That's about a 21yr break-even for the owner.

And you still just have a gas/petrol powered car, without the advantageous of a plug-in electric. No thanks.

[Persanity]

Luckily I've researched the technology. Luckily others that know what Im talking about have researched the technology.

I've been contacted by a few high profile organizations in the plug-in and EREV aftermarket industry.

Just because you can't use it and won't buy it does not mean it doesn't have relevant applications beyond YOUR driving habits.

Fleet owners pay $100,000 for high end conversions on fleet trucks for 10% savings in fuel.

Oshkosh can get up to 50% better fuel economy with ProPulse equipped vehicle, in CERTAIN applications, over a non-hybrid version of the same vehicle.

Thats why I am now focused on fleets of passenger vehicles. Much better opportunities for a start-up in that untapped market.

Don't worry, My company will still do custom and customer applications.

Aaron Coach.


Worlds fastest EREV anyone?

[TylerDurden]

Fleet owners pay $100,000 for high end conversions on fleet trucks for 10% savings in fuel.

Oshkosh can get up to 50% better fuel economy with ProPulse equipped, in CERTAIN applications, over a non-hybrid version of same vehicle.

Thats why I am now focused on fleets of passenger vehicles. Much better opportunities for a start-up in that untapped market.

The weight penalty for a truck adaptation is vastly different than the weight penalty for a sedan/small-truck adaptation. That's why you see the tech in very heavy applications, but not in sedan/wagon applications.

So, I doubt the conversion will yield enough gain to warrant the expense, particularly since small vehicle fleets don't keep the vehicles for more than a few years. At that point, why convert, rather than purchasing all-new with light weight, good aerodynamics and diesel power? A VW TDI wagon costs ~$25K usd, brand-new and full warranty.

[mr.electric]

I don't think the numbers add up:

-I don't believe that the custom conversion can gain more than 15% average fuel economy.
-I don't believe a custom conversion with a secret-sauce can be done for less than $25K, even without batteries.
-I don't believe anyone will pay $25K for 15% better fuel economy on their current car.

If a gallon of fuel costs $6 and the typical guzzler gets ~15mpg, that's about $8K in fuel costs (20 thousand miles/yr). 15% of $8K = $1200.

That's about a 21yr break-even for the owner.

Tyler, I agree with your bullet points. I would not be surprised if someone could prove one of your three points wrong with a small production run of special equipment but overall those three points are the reality.

[adrian_sm]

Thats why I am now focused on fleets of passenger vehicles. Much better opportunities for a start-up in that untapped market.

Now that I agree with. If you can get a fleet of conversions, you might have a business case. But I would still recommend you heed Big Mooses advice above.

Persanity do you understand the imputed liability issues with the things you are proposing? If not, get a lawyer friend so that you do not waste your lifetime...

The advice on this front may drastically change what is viable, and therefore what you should propose in the contest.

Don't worry, My company will still do custom and customer applications.

I wouldn't if I was you. You are more likely to succeed if you focus your energies and pursue one concept vigorously.

All the best, Adrian

[Lock]

If a gallon of fuel costs $6...

Hi TD

If chasing military budgets, I read somewhere that the US folks in Afghanistan were trucking in fuel from Pakistan so by the end of that trip transportation costs drove fuel costs waaay over $6 a gallon...

Lock

[Persanity]

Thank you all for your great points.

I should be paying you guys!

This thread has become what amounts to a great consumer focus group discussion.

First I've turned my attentions completely to the drive train aspects of fleet conversions as I don't believe fleet owners would care about sports suspension style handling or find it an appealing option in a complete conversion solution as the point is to save on operating costs and complexity adds cost.

To that end I will focus on a transmission replacement system with a different, but still universal, solution for all FWD & RWD applications.
I plan to reuse the original engine but offer rebuilding service with option to convert to flex fuel or bio-diesel operation.

Yes, I am aware bio-diesel means replacing the entire engine and not just the fuel injection system like when converting to flex fuel.

Second I have completely redesigned the conceptual engine to generator coupling system to be easier to prototype, test and mass produce.

Instead of aiming to keep both the ICE & generator at a constant RPM independent of each other,
I will instead focus on keeping the engine at a 100% exact RPM 100% independent of the generators RPM, which is based on variable power draw.

Basically the engine never gets bogged down so it saves even more fuel because the driver and road conditions can't directly effect fuel economy.

Using a serial hybrid range extended engine style configuration with no mechanical connection to the road seems ideal to that end.

Third Fleet owners replace the fleets every few years to avoid maintenance costs on those vehicles.

It is actually cheaper for them to get brand new 100% mechanically sound vehicles every few year then doing maintenance to keep the existing vehicles mechanically sound.

As somebody that would and has replaced the engine/transmission in vehicles they've owned when they break instead of getting a new vehicle, I find that concept utterly ridiculous and wasteful.

Every part on a vehicle can be swapped out or customized with the right skills and equipment. I see no exceptions to that rule, do you?

The custom car aftermarket rely on that basic truth to maintain a billion dollar industry.



TylerDurden,
You reference weight penalties, Are you referring to weight from the conversions components? Or the weight in the big rig diesel hybrids?

As the hybrid components replace existing components the weight gains are minimal from the parts swap/conversion process itself.

The real weight gain in conversions like this would be from a few hundred pounds, or more, of lithium (if lithium can even be afforded, if not, you need well over 500lbs of batteries for a conversion), which my conversions don't need.

Though to be honest I am thinking a very small battery pack that can provide a few miles of range in emergency situations would be the best possible use of any batteries in a new or more conventional hybrid design.

As my company is still in the start-up phase I have a unique opportunity to redesign everything, in my head, over and over and over till it can be easily manufactured.

No specs or ideas are set in stone yet. After finding the best possibly way of doing this I will start contacting metal fabrication shops.

Aaron Coach.
Reuse. Repurpose. Retrofit.

[REdiculous]

The prototype will be some type of a chassis that in some way will adapt a S10 cab to a alternative under carriage design.

Probably a tubular roll cage like frame.

The S10 is well engineered already. Your tubular roll cage like frame will probably be heavier than the stock frame, and your design probably won't be as safe. Plus it would add to the cost of the conversion, for no real reason.

If you copy the S10 design exactly then it may make the conversions go a little faster, but you'd still need to pull the engine out of the old so it can go in the new....

I'd leave the structure alone and try to figure ways to adapt my stuff into the existing vehicles. If all you have left from your original vehicle is the cab, bed and engine...that's not a conversion.

[Persanity]

I posted to quirky about an idea for a fire suppression and battery management solution in one package,
What do you guys here think about that?


http://www.quirky.com/ideations/203203


I wanted to say thank you to everybody again.

You guys have been a great help.

While I wish people weren't so critical of what I'm trying to do just because it isn't practical for them, This group have raised valid concerns and questions and general issues with my idea and concept and plan to implement it. Because of you guys Im way ahead of where I was and have a much better business plan and general outline to implement the business plan.


I found this great document from Azure Dynamics on hybrid drive gas savings on fleet vans and trucks.

http://www.azuredynamics.com/products/d ... -03-11.pdf

[REdiculous]

It's not hard to monitor temperature and trigger something when an abnormal value is detected. I know there's an example in the Sensorlab Radio Shack book, but I'm sure you can find it online too.

I don't know if it makes sense to have everything in one package, but a good BMS should be able to monitor battery temp and trigger things based on some cutoffs....a cold battery could be warmed, a hot battery cooled, and a flaming battery...I dunno...get some marshmallows.

[Persanity]

It's not hard to monitor temperature and trigger something when an abnormal value is detected. I know there's an example in the Sensorlab Radio Shack book, but I'm sure you can find it online too.

I don't know if it makes sense to have everything in one package, but a good BMS should be able to monitor battery temp and trigger things based on some cutoffs....a cold battery could be warmed, a hot battery cooled, and a flaming battery...I dunno...get some marshmallows.

The way that site works is your throw an idea out there, people vote on it, quirky builds it without you, then you get royalties.

Its strictly a consumer grade nonsense product for something people think is a problem but isn't under 99% of conditions and situations. Its a feel good and safe about yourself product for hypochondriacs.

But if they build it and I get money from it and it saves even one life then I guess its worth it.

Does anybody know if anything like is currently offer for a BMS?

When I say all in one I mean integrated into the system of, not literally all in one little box. The fire suppression aperture/ nozzle /etc. would need to be adjusted for maximum coverage in each application.

[REdiculous]

Your system doesn't have to be part of the BMS, it just needs to tell the BMS to disconnect the battery, or whatever, when there's a temperature-based fault.

If all you're doing is extending the capabilities of the standard BMS, I think it'd be easier to develop/market/etc.

[kevo]

OT. Been casually following this thread (and its two or three offshoots) and am amused/encouraged how it has come around from wacky to mildly interesting. Persanity (*I constantly edit my posts* / as you should lol), all I can say is I hope your vehicles steer better than your pitch.

Persanity wrote: "As somebody not disciplined entirely in any one given area I have a unique view"

I totally agree on both fronts. Best wishes on your endeavor, keep it safe for you and your customers.

Kudos to Big Moose for his patience and guru comments and steering where the hell to put this thread.

[Toshi]

Without batteries I'd say $8,000-$12,000 for a full conversion.
That isn't bad for a unlimited range extended electric vehicle....

Please don't think I am a ego maniac either. If you think I can't do something I say, Explain why you think I can't, Please.

I don't think the numbers add up:

-I don't believe that the custom conversion can gain more than 15% average fuel economy.
-I don't believe a custom conversion with a secret-sauce can be done for less than $25K, even without batteries.
-I don't believe anyone will pay $25K for 15% better fuel economy on their current car.

If a gallon of fuel costs $6 and the typical guzzler gets ~15mpg, that's about $8K in fuel costs (20 thousand miles/yr). 15% of $8K = $1200.

That's about a 21yr break-even for the owner.

Amen.

No one in their right mind is going to hack up a functioning, late model vehicle for 15% fuel savings. No one cheap enough to be driving an old body on frame vehicle (with enough inherent rigidity and excess powertrain packaging room to make a conversion feasible) will be ponying up cash for a conversion. No one who can afford a $25k conversion would buy one if there exist $32k - $7.5k tax credit BEVs from mainstream manufacturers (with dealer-in-every-town convenience) as well as $19k Mazda 3s with Skyactiv that can probably best an old, converted vehicle's mpg...

[Persanity]

Electric transmissions are more efficient then automatic or standard transmissions. There is no debating that.

If you disagree then you need to do research on the field I have been studying as a hobby for over 10 years.

http://serieshybrid.com/FreedomFormula/ ... arison.pdf

I don't deny that all electric vehicles are better for the environment or that they are more practical vehicles.

BUT if you only want one vehicle that has electric drive with infinite range (with gas just like a normal ICE vehicle) and low emissions then a series hybrid/electric transmission is the only way to go with present technology. Sure batteries make it a little bit better but with the couple system I made I know I can get that efficiency up.

As I've said quite a few times, I designed this for ME. I had a opportunity to take it from an idea and turn it into a company, I decided to share that with the community I've been a part of for like 4 years now.

I am sorry the vast majority of you that have responded here don't like my idea. "Your way" isn't the only way though.

The people that will buy the first conversion systems are people that buy $20,000 performance combustion engines for their weekend driver.

If you think those people won't pay an extra 2-5- or even 10 grand for a transmission and power management system that more the doubles then fuel efficiency of their 20k engine, well your wrong.

If you think somebody driving a late model car won't spend 2-3 grand to double the gas mileage of a car they cant afford to replace your wrong there too.

Everything I am doing is no different then all the EV builders over the years that made generator trailers. Except I brought the engine on board by using the original engine and took out the batteries.

Despite me calling this hybrid technology it isn't.

It is an alternative power source for an electric vehicle.

That is why I thought there would be interest for it here.

Thanks for your time,
Aaron Coach.

[bigmoose]

Please bear with me tonight Persanity, I feel like philosophising a bit...

The smartest chief engineer that I ever worked for gave me a bit of advice sitting around his conference table, in his plane, at 28,000 feet about 25 years ago. He told me to always have someone on my staff who strongly disagreed with me. He told me pondering what this person said to me would make my projects more successful than following the advice of all the yes men that would sit at my table one day. He said this person would protect me from my blind side, from my unknown-unknowns. It is hard to find such a person, retain such a person, and then ponder their observations. Not too much, but not too little either. It is something a very wise man shared with me, to make my journey better and more joyful.

You have this reaction:

I am sorry the vast majority of you that have responded here don't like my idea. "Your way" isn't the only way though.

Steve would have pondered why we are not comfortable with what you proposed...

[Persanity]

I am not proposing anything.

I came here telling this community what I AM doing.

I am starting a company devoted to doing conversions of any type of combustion vehicle to a system I designed from a 110 year old concept, The magnetic transmission.

This concept has evolved over the past 100 some odd years to be used in everything from planes,trains,automobiles, cruise ships,excavation equipment and submarines. Some of these vehicles don't use batteries. There are plenty of auto industry examples of this type of system as well that do use batteries.

Every single part of the design is there except for the motor to generator couple and the control system to integrate it all into one piece of art.

Please don't get me wrong here, I am very grateful for the opinions expressed here by the experts from this community.

But I am the "expert" here on the types of vehicles I want to offer.

Which BTW I do mean offer, I am not the one building there vehicles like some have assumed.

I don't need to be an engineer to know these systems work or that I can at the very least take a GM two-mode and stick it in rwd cars and use a unique control system and a unique coupling system, like I need anyway, to accomplish the same effect as designing my own system from the ground up.

Not that I knew Steve but It sounds to me like maybe he would have wondered why the people that are not yes men, aka proponents of electric vehicle technology, are skeptical without doing the necessary research on the subject to question the claims made.

Yeah, when I first came here I wasn't prepared to answer the questions that were asked of me.

I still can't answer specific questions.

It seems to me like the ideas for my system have been questioned because of a)my lack of a detailed technical understanding of the electric system and b)my lack of having any specific efficiency numbers(which would be useless if I did cause the system would go in any vehicle and efficiency would change with weight).

Do most painters know how to make paint from various off the shelf solutions? No, they buy premade paint.

Its really that hard to believe I took off the shelf parts,Prius transaxle, reconfigured how its organised in a package, added new components and took out the batteries? I mean as a concept too, not as a "I physically did this already".

I can only assume most of the people who have joined in are builders of some type of EV.

These vehicles were made from repurposed components before there was ever a EV business community for the DIY EV community to interact with.

Thanks for your time,
Aaron.

[liveforphysics]

Electric transmissions are more efficient then automatic or standard transmissions. There is no debating that.

If you disagree then you need to do research on the field I have been studying as a hobby for over 10 years.

http://serieshybrid.com/FreedomFormula/ ... arison.pdf

No, you've completely misunderstood the reason why that fairly silly pdf says series hybrids are more efficient.

If you've all ready got mechanical power somewhere, a twisting shaft from an engine for example, you're not going to put it to the ground any more efficiently than directly coupling it with a drive-shaft or chain or gear or sprocket etc. Every energy conversion suffers efficiency losses, let's say that you're going for super efficiency at high power with PMBLDC gen/motor to go from the engine to a generator (~93%) to controller (~98%) to traction motor (~93%) and cabling loss (99.5%), you're looking at an optimistic 84% combined system efficiency, and this assumes the traction motor has no further drivetrain losses to the wheel (like a hubmotor).

In the event you're looking to get decent performance, AKA, not running the generator at it's maximum output to maintain your maximum economy cruise speed, you're going to be suffering substantial core losses just to turn that generator and traction motor. This is why AC induction motors or series-wound DC motors start to make sense for high performance EV's, because a PM motor that can output 200hp may have 10hp purely of core loss to make it spin at your cruising speed where you might only require 20hp at the wheels to be moving down the road, but you're stuck sending the motor 30hp because you've gotta eat that 10hp of core-loss overhead. So, you need to generate 50% more power than you require to cruise. Now on the generator side, you have the same penalty, making the engine need to generate 40hp of mechanical power to deliver your cruising power needs of 20hp. This makes your system efficiency during cruising sub 50%...

So, you go to induction generator/motor or a series DC so your core loss is small while cruising, but you're still able to have decent performance when you want it. Now your under high power efficiency is about the same as under high loads as light loads, about 85% for some well designed stuff. So, 85% gen 98% controller 85% traction motor 99.5% cabling, and your combined system efficiency is ~70%.

I know from dyno'ing plenty of racecar engine builds in and out of the car, that a Honda FWD engine/transmission/axles/wheels/tire to dyno roller interface, that 88% system loss from engine to the rubber of the tire on the roller.

If you think those people won't pay an extra 2-5- or even 10 grand for a transmission and power management system that more the doubles then fuel efficiency of their 20k engine, well your wrong.

If you think somebody driving a late model car won't spend 2-3 grand to double the gas mileage of a car they cant afford to replace your wrong there too.

I pay 20k for race engines for my racecars (though I try to keep them under 10k these days). I would happily pay 10k for something that would give my vehicle an advantage. However, this would only give my vehicle an advantage in drive train wear and service intervals (which I don't really care about). This is why you see locomotives using series diesel systems, no clutch to slip or torque converter to heat fluids and/or tranny bands to slip while taking off from a stop, starting from a stop on a mountain pass, etc, situations where mechanical drivetrains would rapidly wear out.

[TylerDurden]

Do most painters know how to make paint from various off the shelf solutions? No, they buy premade paint.

That doesn't mean they don't know how paint is made... there are economies of scale.


Similarly, few EVers wind motors, or build controllers, or cast transmission cases, design frames or do FEMM analysis on stator profiles - But members here do (and share the knowledge freely for any and all). Some members have worked on the systems you describe. One has even shared his recipe for paint.

You came to the experts, who bring talents of every kind, from every corner of the globe. You are getting the feedback from some of the very best minds you will find, informed by decades of collective knowledge. Being dismissive of that feedback does not make your position any more convincing.

If you ever get a shot at venture capital investors in a pitch-tank, I can guarantee you arguing that "it will work, you just don't understand" will get you nothing.

[Persanity]

I apologize for presenting a idea I can't fully share with everybody here.

I am not going to be posting in this thread anymore.

It is way too frustrating for me not being able to give details when people are telling me I am wrong or crazy or whatever it is people think I am.

Really, Thank you all.

Aaron.


BTW, One other purpose of all this is to design systems that ANYBODY can install, not just people with the skills to make their own stuff. That should NOT be the point of DIY. DIY should make it easy and available to everybody to accomplish with minimal to no skill.


Oh, look, could that be where the importance of a no battery design comes into play?

Wouldn't want grandma electrocuting herself when shes converting over her car would we......

[TylerDurden]

http://www.emavcompany.com/
Maybe that is more interesting to people here

So far they are delivering campers. Interesting.

Last press release: Nov. 2010

"Many new electronic patents have and are being created in the on going development of the vehicle. " Nada.

The PRU: "Scheduled for 2011 Market Entry". No prototype even.

[Toshi]

Electric transmissions are more efficient then automatic or standard transmissions. There is no debating that.

See efficiency of Chevy Volt in charge-sustaining mode vs. efficiency of a non-PHEV Prius as a real-world rebuttal.

The people that will buy the first conversion systems are people that buy $20,000 performance combustion engines for their weekend driver.

If you think those people won't pay an extra 2-5- or even 10 grand for a transmission and power management system that more the doubles then fuel efficiency of their 20k engine, well your wrong.

If you think somebody driving a late model car won't spend 2-3 grand to double the gas mileage of a car they cant afford to replace your wrong there too.

The people buying $20k crate engines are building racecars or dragstrip specials. That crew generally could care less about fuel efficiency.

I don't believe that you can double gas mileage on a "normal" car for $3k... unless your talk of series hybrid retrofits is a smokescreen and you're just on planning on leaving the ICE drivetrain in place, installing a huge nosecone and a Kamm back, driving 45 mph in top gear on a flat road, and then calling it a day.