Electrolysis of water into Hydrogen & Oxygen

[vanilla ice]

I've seen some commercial offerings of large complex mpg boosters for big rigs. Does this really work? Is the energy required to free up the H really less than the H helps out in combustion? I figured if it does indeed work a small diy setup could be useful on a hybrid vehicle.. it'd be a great place to feed excess electricity from braking or downhill.

[Drunkskunk]

Can't say for what those systems are, but chemicly, it takes more energy to seperate the hydrogen bonds than the hydrogen and oxygen have for total energy when burned.

But someone sent me a link a while back for a kit you put on a car, and they had a demo video. in the video, when they turned on the system, the rpm of the car they had it on shot up. They were giving the diffrence in RMP as the percentage of Milage increase you would get. If you understand ICE engines, you'll see why it doesn't work that way.

[BiGH]

in short:

yes it is possible to store excess energy by doing electroloysis on water into H2 and O2 molecules, storing it and using it to provide power later.

The problem is this:
to do this efficiently, you require additives to the water to help aid electrolysis.

Also to convert it back to electricity (if that is your goal) - you either need a gas turine or a fuel cell = $$$$

to burn it in a car, it would have to be collected, then compressed using a compressor. Regulating this reaction might be dificult, as would require a vaccume etc to ensure no "air" got into the process.

a while ago i was thinking about using solar pannels on a house to generate "H2 and O2 @ home. however i very quickly realised it would be dificult to build something like this out of hobby parts, as you can't let other gasses get in, and the H2 and O2 needs to be compressed into bottles / storage.

I ahve no doubt that a system will eventually become commonplace.

ie
"reactor"

has an inlet for a water source - ie a garden hose connector
two outlets for H2 and O2 separated.

I actualy think it could be designed really nicely, to almost look like an alien powersource using creative blue lighting etc.


it stil suffers that you need lots of pwoer, and additives to teh water though.
maybe we shuld all work towards a working prototype.

[vanilla ice]

Well with a hybrid having an ICE engine also, I don't see the need to keep the gasses pure or seperated. Just feed the brew in with the gasoline and it boosts the power output slightly. Storage during low load, until the ICE kicks on, that could be a problem.

How efficient is this electrolysis process?

[paultrafalgar]

When you've split your water into H2 and O2 you can feed it into one of these:
http://home.teleport.com/~reedg/whitedwarf.html
or here:
http://www.zeppy.org/
.. cuts down rolling resistance!
I came across an article about a guy who had a system that used electrolysis via a PV array to power his house. Can't find it at present.. but I found this when looking (In your neck of the woods too, BigH):
http://blogs.business2.com/greenwombat/ ... owere.html
I'll keep looking.
Paul

[Malcolm]

The White Dwarf blimp is beautiful, not too practical for the shopping trip, but I never liked shopping anyway

From a wiki on electrolysis here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis

The energy efficiency of water electrolysis varies widely. The efficiency is a measure of what fraction of electrical energy used is actually contained within the hydrogen. Some of the electrical energy is converted to heat, a useless by-product. Some reports quote efficiencies between 50% and 70%[1] This efficiency is based on the Lower Heating Value of Hydrogen. The Lower Heating Value of Hydrogen is thermal energy released when hydrogen is combusted. This does not represent the total amount of energy within the hydrogen, hence the efficiency is lower than a more strict definition. Other reports quote the theoretical maximum efficiency of electrolysis as being between 80% and 94%.[2]. The theoretical maximum considers the total amount of energy absorbed by both the hydrogen and oxygen. These values refer only to the efficiency of converting electrical energy into hydrogen's chemical energy. The energy lost in generating the electricity is not included. For instance, when considering a power plant that converts the heat of nuclear reactions into hydrogen via electrolysis, the total efficiency is more like 25%–40%.

[Miles]

The White Dwarf blimp is beautiful, not too practical for the shopping trip..........

Oh, I don't know.............

[vanilla ice]

Some reports quote efficiencies between 50% and 70%...

That loss is in line with other methods of harnessing excess regen power.

Another issue is feeding oxygen/H mix in to an ICE with closed loop fuel injection, the oxygen sensor may cause the vehicle to richen up the mixture with more gasoline. Good chance that would negate any gains.

The equiv. octane of H must be very low I'm thinking. This could cause detonation in an ICE, but the small amounts compared with the gasoline here, it probably wont matter. Does anybody know the ocatane equiv of H??

[fechter]

Electrolyzing water to make hydrogen and oxygen is inherently inefficient, but the claim is a small percentage of this mixture fed to a conventional ICE will greatly improve its efficiency.
It may actually work and be worthwhile.


Here's one:

http://www.hydrogencarsnow.com/hydrogen-generators-cars.htm

another one: http://mileagemaker.us/


"Hydrogen, in combination with electrolyzed oxygen, introduced separately into the intake manifold of your engine directly from the MileageMaker, will greatly accelerate the flame spread during the power stroke of your internal combustion engine, increasing the power output during fuel combustion in the cylinder of your gasoline or diesel powered ICE (Internal Combustion Engine), and thereby getting more of the vaporized liquid fuel to combust during the initial part of the power stroke when the explosive force is most effectively utilized. Hydrogen typically ignites 1000 times faster than vaporized liquid fossil fuel. The benefits of the addition of hydrogen and oxygen in an internal combustion engine, including diesel engines, have been well researched and documented by both the U.S. Government and many major universities and research facilities worldwide. "

[vanilla ice]

Right, kind of like how the propane kits help disels burn cleaner.. I'm still doubtful the net result would be positive taking in to account the alternator loss and electrolysis loss %.

[truckerzero]

ok think of this if we can convert 1000 watts into say 500 watts worth of hydrogen and electricity is cheaper than the cost of a eqal usable amount of gas this is still much cheaper than just buying gas here is how i arrived at that . 1000 watts of electricity is .07 cents and a gas engine is 20 percent effiecient and a gollon of gas contains 33,000 watts x.20=6,600watts x.07=.46 now is 46 cents less than you pay for a gallon of gas now double that number for the loss in electrolasis and you get the equivalent of about 1 dollar per hydrogen amount equall to that of a gallon of gas what do you think?

[TylerDurden]

Ya sound more like a scientist than a trucker...

The auto mfrs have made the most progress in efficiency by improving combustion. This looks like a plausible next-step.

[vanilla ice]

But your electricity is coming from your gasoline via the alternator. Thats the problem with that argument. Not hatin' just trying to figure out if its worth building one of these..

[TylerDurden]

But your electricity is coming from your gasoline via the alternator.

Would it have to? Perhaps batteries?

Nevertheless... if the net gain at the wheels is more than the energy to run the electrolyzer, it's a win.

[truckerzero]

what i was saying is come up with a way to store the hydrogen on your car and use the cheap home electricity to convert it maby on a daily basis as you need it.
like how we recharge a e bike every night we would recharge with fresh hydrogen each night

[truckerzero]

oh and tyler on the scientist angle im a professional trucker cause iget paid to do that and a amature scientist because i do this for free!!

[dogman]

These browns gas car thingys do look like a good idea at first. And browns gas, a mix of hydrogen and oxygen from electrolysis does burn real good! We used to love professor alexanders fun with gas lecture! The car does kinda produce excess power from the alternator and it can be used to make browns gas. But when the car does need the capacity of the alternator the motor will run harder to turn the alternator under load. I suspect the old takes more energy to make it than you get out thing makes this a boondogle. But a browns gas filling station powered by solar or wind? That could work. The car does like to burn browns gas for sure. Anything that makes the gas burn better increases efficiency, so maybe just buying tanks of browns gas would be better. Maybe this idea could work if you drop the get it free part of the idea.

[Dr. Shock]

What you need is something that takes the waste heat from the engine/exhaust, like a peltier junction, only much better, that converts heat to electricity, and let that generate hydrogen.

Orrr... how about a hybrid that has an ICE, an electric motor and a steam (or a stirling?) generator. Use the energy from the exhaust heat to power the generator to make electricity for the electric motor that's already there in a hybrid.

[dogman]

Anything that makes waste heat into usable eneryg would be a good thing to devlelop whether it traveled or not.

[truckerzero]

there is such a device belive it or not and its in all thermo elctric coolers forget what its technical name is but its a heat pump when you apply electricity to it it either pumps heat out of the cooler and makes it a fridge or reverse the polarity and it makes it a oven BUT if you take that thing out and expose it to a big differance in tempature or a heat sorce it makes electricity some one even made a generater that runs on propain with this thing and its silent compared to conventional genarater but it only puts out half the electricity per gal of fuel a conventional genarater does but if the heat was free or just waste energy then this could probable be of benfit.ps this device is solid state no moving parts and is good enough some small refrigeraters now use them ive also seen thim in those small wine coolers they like them because no compressor cuts down on vibration

[truckerzero]

they are called a thermoelectric module look for them on google under shopping and their are all kinds for sale

[Dr. Shock]

Hey T-0, that's the Peltier junction I was referring to. Same thing. You can use them to heat or cool by driving electricity across them, but they also generate electricity if you heat one side. Kind of like a dc motor is also a generator. If you had a good enough one to justify the weight, you could wrap it around the exhaust pipe or the engine block and recover electricity for the motor from the heat. I don't think they're efficient enough to make it worthwhile in their present state of development.

[truckerzero]

yea thats the conclusion i came up with probably cost would be to much but one thing i would like to try is take the one thats rated at 225 watts and put it under a large frenzel lens i know they make enough heat to catch a 2x4 on fire almost instant ly seen it on youtube they were using the screen from a old projection bigscreen

[Link]

Remember it has to be in a temperature gradient for it to work. The greater the gradient, the better it works. Should prolly have the other end in some water when you try that, LOL.

[Dr. Shock]

yea thats the conclusion i came up with probably cost would be to much but one thing i would like to try is take the one thats rated at 225 watts and put it under a large frenzel lens i know they make enough heat to catch a 2x4 on fire almost instant ly seen it on youtube they were using the screen from a old projection bigscreen

Sounds interesting. I know you can do this to a certain extent with solar panels. Intensifying the light with a lens or a mirror bucks the output up. Just don't melt it.

I have heard of peltier junctions being used inside wood stoves to generate enough electricity to run an exhaust fan, so I infer that they can take a good bit of heat. I'm sure there are spec sheets telling the limits.