Formula E drivetrains ?

Its hard to tell if the technical configuration will be a significant factor.
These races are practically an economy/efficiency competition due to the firm restrictions on battery capacity and race distance.
Also , the simple fact that it is a competition between teams with many other factors to consider.
Remember, in F1 (ICE) several teams have identical engine packages,..one teams wins every race, the others are hardly in the points at all ???...driver skills, ? race set up,? team work ?....too many variables.
At least it will be interesting to see if there is any noticable difference between the single speed and multi speed gearing systems in a simple side by side race....but then there is that silly Fan boost !
 
Well funded teams will most always have a competitive advantage. The rapid change in the drive lines is a good sign for developing suitable power trains which could be applied to daily transport applications. Having 3 and 4 speed gearboxes and longitudinal mounted motors is something I would hope to see get thoroughly proven to be disadvantages in the very near future. Agree that they need to allow more latitude on the battery side, but can understand limiting this to some extent until some of the mechanical issues get sorted out a bit more. The fan boost will most likely go away once the spectators numbers are up, at least I hope so.
 
Restricted battery capacity does at least focus more attention on maximising drivetrain efficiency.
 
Hillhater said:
but then there is that silly Fan boost !

When I heard there was going to be fan boost I was thinking of the cars that had fans on the underside for downforce like the redbull prototype x2011 not a fan app that gives a speed boost to the winner who come up with that one.
 
Martin A said:
Three of the top five in the championship currently single speed after two races, including the leader.

This should be a surprise to nobody. :)

Next, if they stop forcing everyone use the same very poor energy density and poor energy quantity and 200kW capped 800vdc battery (to carry power all of 1ft to controller), we could start to see cars get fast.

800vdc is defining asinine in a racecar even more than the tiny pack capacity and tiny maximum power allowances.
 
Yes the battery is really holding these back with so many constraints and regulations to comply with.
Apart from performance demands ...capacity , continuous /peak power, thermal control, etc, the pack has to meet crash survival tests, and even Aviation certification to enable them to be airfreighted around the world.
That 28kWhr pack ends up being 350 kg !
More power for the car would need a bigger capacity pack which will simply mean more weight with the current technology, and that may well cancell out the power increase
But There is a new pack design being produced for 2018 and being made by McLaren with the intention of eliminating the mid race car swap that is neccessary to complete a 50min race.
That would mean more capacity, probably more weight, potentially more peak power ?....but still an efficiency/ economy competition . :roll: :cry:
 
Hillhater said:
Yes the battery is really holding these back with so many constraints and regulations to comply with.
Apart from performance demands ...capacity , continuous /peak power, thermal control, etc, the pack has to meet crash survival tests, and even Aviation certification to enable them to be airfreighted around the world.
That 28kWhr pack ends up being 350 kg !
More power for the car would need a bigger capacity pack which will simply mean more weight with the current technology, and that may well cancell out the power increase
But There is a new pack design being produced for 2018 and being made by McLaren with the intention of eliminating the mid race car swap that is neccessary to complete a 50min race.
That would mean more capacity, probably more weight, potentially more peak power ?....but still an efficiency/ economy competition . :roll: :cry:

It can most certainly meet all air shipping and crash testing while offering 2x capacity. The proposal was created and submitted with explicit details how to achieve it (then had to have 120kg of lead added to the bottom to meet the "minimum weight" in the version that doesn't exceed the maximum 28kWh).

FIM's role in racing, is to find anything beneficial to lap times and ban it. If you look in the FIM rule books for any motorsport. it reads list of good ideas for dropping lap times, all banned.

A de-restricted EV road racing series wound already have taken every F1 car set track lap record. FIM is a puppet group for its petro-chem-industry F1 and motoGP sponsors. Its these sponsors worst nightmare to have EVs dethroning lap times set by the noisy stink-mobiles they put corporate sponsor stickers upon.

Fortunately, it won't matter, every single ICE track lap record will fall in less than 5 years anyways. It just will be unlikely to occur at an FIM sanctioned event.
 
liveforphysics said:
"........ The proposal was created and submitted with explicit details how to achieve it (then had to have 120kg of lead added to the bottom to meet the "minimum weight" in the version that doesn't exceed the maximum 28kWh).
.

Are you saying the current FE pack has 120kg of lead ballast added just to make up the weight ?

Re the next F E battery pack.....
.........Lucid’s Tesla Model S rival, expected to go on sale in late 2018, doesn’t even have an official name yet. But the company, which until yesterday was known as Atieva, is emerging from a self-imposed stealth mode and aims to find name recognition quickly among electric-vehicle enthusiasts and motorsports fans with this bit of news: Lucid will soon be the sole supplier of battery packs for FIA Formula E racing. Peter Rawlinson, Lucid’s chief technical officer (and the former chief engineer of the Tesla Model S), has confirmed to C/D that the agreement will be part of a three-way partnership among McLaren Applied Technologies, Lucid, and Sony. Lucid will design and construct the battery and battery management software; Sony will supply the small-format, commodity-sized cylindrical cells within; and McLaren will manage the logistics and trackside support. “Our batteries will power the entire Formula E race series for seasons 5 and 6,” said Rawlinson. “There are some major automakers entering that series—illustrious, well-recognized names—and they will all be running our batteries.”
http://blog.caranddriver.com/lucid-formerly-known-as-atieva-will-be-the-sole-battery-pack-supplier-for-formula-e/

So like ly the next pack will be using 18650/21700 cells from Sony,....possibly !
 
Hillhater said:
liveforphysics said:
"........ The proposal was created and submitted with explicit details how to achieve it (then had to have 120kg of lead added to the bottom to meet the "minimum weight" in the version that doesn't exceed the maximum 28kWh).
.

Are you saying the current FE pack has 120kg of lead ballast added just to make up the weight ?

No. In my own proposal obeying the 28kWh maximum capacity(an FIM rule handicap effectively dictating average usable power for the car) but to not drop under the required minimum 350kG mass (an FIM rule handicap on vehicle performance) it requires 120kG of lead.
 
[youtube]fJD-Ip1meuE[/youtube]

This is far more genuine EV racecar than a FIM rulebook hog-tied formula E car.

They could already be building upon racing this level of car if they weren't designing around a draconian level micro-management rulebook to ensure the cars stay noncompetitive with the main event race sponsors, F1 and MotoGP.

With no FIM rulebook, even with no battery improvements every F1 car would already be series hybrid electrics with gas turbines (assuming they had to cover full race distances at this incredible power level on todays battery tech) on direct drive generators to a large pancake geometry inboard direct drive motor per wheel linked by a CV axle. They would easily be >3000hp and have the computer controlled aero drag to make it work. The human inside would do roughly nothing if a human were inside at all (corner g-force levels might kill them with a properly designed active aero downforce system). The laptimes of todays best would look like comical round of tom-foolery on a racetrack rather than a serious attempt at a good laptime if you had an un-restricted racing class.

Today we get faster EV street cars than than track-only formula cars...
 
I dont like the restrictions of the FIA (FIM is for Motorcycles) regulations,...but they have one overriding essential benifit ....
....they ensure there is a race series next year ! By deliberately controlling the amount of development and investment in anything that might possibly provide a advantage over the other teams.
F1 used to be a fairly "open" formula with teams investing hugely in engine , tyre, suspension,fuel, gearbox, brake ,etc etc development and testing endlessly. But it was obviously unsustainable even for the best funded teams .
So come the '90s, they all agreed to more regulation and standardisation of various components ....to control the costs so more teams could compete .
"Open" regulations in any race formula inevitably leads to no competition.!

Having said that, some of the F E regulations are seriously unimpressive !
 
liveforphysics said:
Fortunately, it won't matter, every single ICE track lap record will fall in less than 5 years anyways. It just will be unlikely to occur at an FIM sanctioned event.

Possibly. 'Open Class' electric race cars with computer aided 4 wheel independent drive and intelligent active aerodynamics can do it if the money is there. The emphasis being on Track Lap Record, not Race Lap Record.

Hillhater said:
....but still an efficiency/ economy competition . :roll: :cry:

Batteries are heavy, so if you want to win, you have to be efficient. The most important EV racing rule and the hardest for people to really get is "If you are not limited by stored energy, your vehicle is too heavy".

The Video is a good example. Here is a wide electric car with big tires and a body designed to create down force. They claim it is capable of delivering 1 Megawatt at full power(https://www.engadget.com/2016/11/21/nio-ep9-worlds-fastest-electric-supercar/). So, ignoring losses, flat out for 5 minutes, the car would use 50 kW hours. They do the Nurberg Ring as fast as they can in 7 minutes, so if the car is optimized to use full power, they empty their pack. The car weighs 1735 Kg with 635 Kg being the battery.

Let's say they want to do two laps at the same speed. They add another 635 Kg of weight but now they are quite a bit heavier and need more power to go the same speed. The chassis needs to be sturdier to carry the extra weight and cope with the extra power. Bigger brakes and tires are needed etc. Now, what about three laps?

So they can set the lap record but any greater distance becomes a problem. The solution is 'don't build an electric powered gas race car, build a race vehicle designed around being electric.'

So yes, copying Formula 1 cars and calling them Formula E did not make sense from an engineering stand point. Whether it will succeed commercially is not yet answered.
 
Got to see them race this past weekend in Brooklyn. Well run event from what we saw. Very tight, shortish track shoe horned into a near impossible spot. Cool nonetheless. Some impressions were that the cars are way underpowered. Incredibly fast for the power and fuel storage they have, but agree they need to start off with a newer look - design rather than copy the standard Formula mold. So much more is possible.

They are quite. Could not hear them at all over the PA system. On the plus side you could clearly hear the tires getting torn up. Cars ran around 20 laps of the 1+ mile circuit before running out of power. Refueling reminded me of the pony express. Driver pulls into the pits and unstraps and extricates himself and then jumps into the waiting second car. Terrible idea IMO. Somehow they need to make packs swap out like power tools in seconds. Whatever it takes. Having to have a second car ready is never going to take hold and sets a bad president for real life product development.

Thinking the technology would lend itself better to rally cross type events. Had a good amount of spectators there so time will tell. Even with VIP passes, we could not get close to seeing the works under the body work. Maybe next time we can get there a day or two early and make friends with sir Richard. B. and get to sit in one. LOL
 
Seems to me a pack swap could be by sliding a dolly under the car and dropping it and lifting the way they lift Indy and F1, so you pull the one out and slide the next under, no small feat by the reckoned weight, but you'll drop the car, the dolly that carries the replacement will have a lift and you fit it. Less than a minute, but how much less?
 
Pack swaps have been tested and are perfectly workable.
But for the same reason they dont allow refueling in F1, pack swaps are excluded to force efficiency (power management) , and on safety grounds....a 200kg 800v , battery is not something you want being hustled about in a time challenge !
Future rules are changing many of these early technical controls, so new car designs, drive lines , batteries, etc etc ..will likely start to appear.
 
They don't actually need to swap packs or cars, it's a stunt to make EVs appear handicapped.

If the cars weren't forced by rules into tiny capacity heavy bulky batteries and shit drivetrains with transmissions the cars would just race and finish with no swap shinangins.
 
LFP - you know my views on high voltage battery packs (with high being up to 800 volts). It's entirely workable.
Everything is volting up these days, not down. When someone comes up with a motor capable of 500 kW that runs on a 100 volt system I'll change my mind, but until then, the best power and efficiency is to be had closer to 1000 volts.
 
jonescg said:
LFP - you know my views on high voltage battery packs (with high being up to 800 volts). It's entirely workable.
Everything is volting up these days, not down. When someone comes up with a motor capable of 500 kW that runs on a 100 volt system I'll change my mind, but until then, the best power and efficiency is to be had closer to 1000 volts.

I value your input my friend, and I'm so impressed with your many amazing accomplishments. I must respectfully disagree however, as Im pretty sure you already know the motors output is linked to the amp-turns on the tooth. Once you go IGBT based you eat the diode drop losses (which doesn't have to be a problem, but is added loss a lower voltage mosfet system doesn't have).

Everytime mosfet Silicon power density per die area improves, the ideal system voltage drops. What people build today will be seen as the wild west of sillyness and pointless risk as we mature out of the covered wagon EV era towards something mature.
 
Right - all true and good, but we've not seen that in the development of ever faster, lighter, more powerful EVs. Porsche is going for an 800 V system, and heavy rigs are opting for nearly 1000 volt systems.

Despite all the potential on offer for lower voltage systems, engineers are not taking it on - instead going for a proven technology in higher voltages. I know you have been a strong proponent for lower voltage systems for many years now, but the tide is puling the other way :?
 
...Until the Battery technology improves dramatically, FE will be a "restricted" performance series.
But , maybe the next generation of higher capacity (54kWh) battery will help somewhat to at least eliminate the silly mid race car swaps !
.....Lucid (Formerly Known as Atieva) Will Be the Sole Battery-Pack Supplier for Formula E

—Peter Rawlinson, Lucid chief technical officer
”. The original FIA battery specifications included a 200-kilogram (441 pound) cell-weight limit, a 200-kW peak power limit, and a maximum usable energy of 28 kWh. In revised specs starting with Season 5, cell weight has been nudged to 250 kg (551 pounds), and peak power goes up to 250 kW (with usable energy very nearly doubled, at 54 kWh). For season 5, which runs in 2018 and 2019, the supplier must also demonstrate that the pack can be fully charged in 45 minutes or less. Lucid’s contract is contingent on several certifications yet to come, as well as a battery crash test by June 2017. “
......” The physical battery packs will remain Lucid property, and the company will have access to the series data, but the FIA has to be made aware of all the data the company is using.
....Lucid is working with the SLAC National Accelerator Laboratory, a U.S. Department of Energy lab based at Stanford University, and via a collaboration with the lab that uses CAT-scan-like methods, will look at physical degradation and the small-scale fractures within the battery that result from charge/discharge cycles. “It’s not just taking things off the shelf,” said Liu. “These chemistries are Lucid specific, and we consider that a competitive advantage.” Production Bound: A Cooling System and Pack Up to the Task The rigors of Formula E usage also will serve as a proving ground for Lucid’s custom architecture for battery cooling.
. And designing a pack that’s ready for potential 350-kW fast-charging parallels some of the cooling requirements for racing-level brake-energy recovery.
Liu cautioned that this is no indication that the company will go with cells from Sony—which is in the process of selling its battery business to Murata—for the production model. Lucid still is evaluating which exact size of cylindrical cell it’s going to use in the production sedan: the 18650 used by Tesla (supplied for that automaker by Panasonic) or the somewhat larger 21700. It’s working with suppliers who will assemble cells with a chemistry exclusive to the company.
 
Max current was 170 kw and was displayed on the jumbo in the NYC race. Double the capacity and current would be welcome improvement for at least this spectator. No one was talking about motor or controller meltdowns, only the concerns for battery. Not only a severely restrictive performance series, also a restrictive supplier series. Poor combination for fast development IMO.
 
If max was 170kw on the day then this 200kw upper limit is not even being exploited if it was f1 all teams would have 200kw on the nail.
How can they give a pack weight and expected figures on a pack they have not decided on what cells to use, is it jist me or does that contradicts itself.
The sport is heavily choked, the world is corrupt, it's been like it since humans stood tall.
 
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