Crystalyte 5302 up for grabs. Sale, or trade.

[Indubitably]

I've got a crystalyte 5302 straight laced into a pretty beefy looking 16 inch moped rim (aka 20 inch in bicycle terms) up for sale, trade, or any combination thereof.

What I want in trade:

Basically what ever will work for turning my heavy ass recumbent into an epic dual hub direct drive hill climber of doom (or rather, as much of what I need as can be reasonably expected). Preferably front and back HT3525s in a 20 inch rim and a lyen 18fet controller to match the one I've already got. Theoretically though, a couple of hs3540s in 18 inch rims, or high torque nine contient hubs with upgraded phase wires, or maybe even controller-free magic pies would do.

I'm just going to come right out and say that I will likely favor trade over cash, but only in so far as it will do significantly more for me than cash. Even if somebody just straight up dropped $700 in my lap, the guy who drops a couple of well loved ht3525s laced into nice beefy 20" rims, a controller, and a cycle analyst in my lap is going to win, simply because I need all of those things and can't get all of them for $700. Granted, I'm not expecting the motor to command that kind of value, but you get the idea.

Errata:

*The hub has a funky custom built single speed freewheel on it that you will probably want to replace.

*I'm in San Diego California, if you live near enough that you can come to me to make the trade it will make things a lot easier on both of us, so I will naturally be a bit more receptive to your offer.

*My front fork is basically a dirt bike fork with a 12mm thru bolt but standard 90mm spacing. I can finagle a little more space out of it by reversing the orientation, but its still awkward and the axle hole on each fork boot is 30mm wide, so if you can cobble something like a rear motor in a front cover, or a front motor with a rear axle, I would be interested.

Edit: I'm starting to think that maybe I shouldn't be quite so picky about what I'm willing to trade, since an h3525s in a 20 inch wheel isn,t exactly the most popular kid on the block around here, so if you want to throw a bunch of lipo or headway cells or something at me please feel free to make the offer. I'm also starting to think that its about time that I learn to properly lace up a wheel myself, so don't worry about wheel sizes in general for that matter. If you've got an ht3525 in a 20 inch, then great, throw it my way, if not I'll figure out how to lace it into what ever I need.

[stuartjbecker]

Picture?

[Indubitably]

Just thought I should post an update since one or two people have recently expressed interest. Long story short, no more than a week or so after I posted the motor for sale, it twisted itself out of the dropouts (looks like a loose nut on the axel, and or a lack of proper torque arms was the culprate) subsequently chopping through the phase wires like a ginzu knife through so many wet noodles. At the moment I'm in the process of upgrading the phase wires, and getting it cleaned up for testing and a clean coat of paint. When its ready for sale again I'll update the add with some pics documenting the process.

As is, the motor has been removed from the 20 inch rim, which was really a bit too big of a rim for this motor in a gearless direct drive application anyway (the 5302 was something of a different animal from pretty much every other hub crystalyte produced, it makes all its' torque at a much higher rpm than the rest of the 5300 series, so its almost too fast for what we do with ebikes. You really need to stick it in the smallest rim you can to bring the top speed down, then jack the power up pretty high so it has enough juice to accelerate off the line without bogging), because I was planning to do an oil cooing mod then use it to power a direct mid-drive delta trike if it didn't really generate much interest. If someone wants it air cooled, or not cooled at all, let me know and make an offer. In the mean time if you're curious about how it will perform with your setup I would run it through the simulator at ebikes.ca (if you want to know how it stacks up against the cromotor, I think the option "no name" is supposed to be an estimation of the cromotor's performance).

[Indubitably]

5302 in 16" vs Cromotor in 700c Don't go thinking this makes the 5302 a better motor than the Cromotor.

5302 in 16" vs Cromotor in 700c Don't go thinking this makes the 5302 a better motor than the Cromotor, its just wound for much higher speed.

Scaling the 5302's throttle back to 80% we see pretty similar performance.

Cromotor is obviously current starved in this configuration at 100% throttle on the flat. Scaling the 5302's throttle back to 80% we see pretty similar performance.

Screenshot_2012-05-27-15-56-48.png

Hitting a hill we see fairly similar results.

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Hitting a hill we see fairly similar results, with Cromotor taking the efficiency lead as expected.

Screenshot_2012-05-27-15-58-04.png

Performance is almost identical under heavy bog, with the 5302 presumably holding out a little longer.

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Performance is almost identical under heavy bog, with the 5302 holding out a little longer, presumably due to a thermal advantage afforded the 5302 by its sheer mass of copper (sloppy as the windings may be). This doesn't account for the weight difference between the motors, but compared to the weight of the rider and the bike it should be fairly insignificant.

Properly fed...

With neither motor current starved, we again see fairly comparable performance, although the 5302 does retain plenty of breathing room for higher speed. With the Cromotor however, we could always just drop the wheel size down if we wanted our torque at a lower speed, where as the 5302 is pretty much as slow as its going to get in that 16" wheel.


Bottom line, this thing is almost too fast for its own good, but if you need a direct drive hub with ungodly speed on a bike with small tyres, nothing can touch it. Its not for everyone, but there is a certain kind of satisfaction in seeing the look on your opponent's face when you roll up to a race riding a 16" bmx then proceed to thoroughly smoke the shit out of his time at half throttle. Crystalyte didn't produce nearly as many of these as the rest of the 5300 series for that matter either, so you'd have a pretty unique build.

[neptronix]

Geez. Just sell it and, put an eTek type motor on it, and be done.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=39299

There ya go. More power than you could ever use. If that's not enough, the dual stator version oughta work

[Indubitably]

Geez. Just sell it and, put an eTek type motor on it, and be done.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=39299

There ya go. More power than you could ever use. If that's not enough, the dual stator version oughta work

Actually, I was just thinking the same thing. Its funny, for my very first project, long before I knew jack all about ebikes, I picked up a legit etek with a 250a alltrax controller from some random guy on Craigslist for 500$, then turned around and sold them to my brother for the same amount (who then sold them for $800 on eBay) to buy the 5302, which sat on a shelf for at least a year or two. Now that the novelty of hub motors has begun to wear a little thin, I'm realizing that the etek that fell into my lap was probably the right way to go all along.

There is no guarantee that people are going to want to give me what I've got into this hub though, so I'm going to move forward under the assumption that I will need to use what I've already got, just in case. If it sells, then great, if not, it should still make a pretty decent mid drive.

[neptronix]

Still got the motor?
It would be a wicked rear drive unit if you threw some very high voltage at it and did a 1.5:1 - 2:1 reduction ratio to the rear wheel.

You could easily embarass doctorbass.

[nechaus]

Imagine a Dual x5 ebike...

scary

[neptronix]

Imagine an x5 spinning at twice the speed and making somewhere around twice the power..

Suddenly we'd be wondering why we bought these etek size motors ;D

[nechaus]

yeah damm !!!

iv never seen a dual x5 bike b4

[neptronix]

That would be nuts..

BTW look at what a 5302 does in a 16" wheel on the ebikes.ca simulator.
Just freaking amazing how many constant watts the thing can put out. I almost want one now. lol.

[nechaus]

It is totally awesome for a ebike that you can get away with being legal. Nice big 200 watt sticker would do the job

[icecube57]

What is the price ... is it a rear.... I would like to buy it and convert it to an x5304. What is the price mate

[Indubitably]

Sorry there haven't been any updates as of late, but I was pretty busy with finals for a while there and just haven't been able to get back to my ebike stuff as much as I'd like to these days. At any rate, upon opening up the hub to replace the phase wires I noticed that it had what appears to be two different taps. One set of leads is shorted together and the other is what was pumped out to the phase wires. I'm guessing this means that I have one of the few "Delta-Wye" crystalytes, so I was thinking I'd grab a few 80amp spdt AC relays and run a signal wire into the hub so I could switch between configurations. If you guys would prefer to do that mod yourself though, I can just run some phase wires, slap in some new bearings, and be done with it.

As for the price, I was basically hoping to recover the $500 I spent on it, assuming it still commands that kind of value. To be honest, I have no idea what its market value is at this point. I know its rare, but just how much its worth will be up to you guys, which is to say that it will go to whomever does the best job of convincing me to part with it, rather than the first guy to pm me.

Like I say, at this point I'm kind of over the whole hub motor thing and looking for powerful rc out runners, eteks, high amperage controllers, power transmission stuff (internal hubs and what not), etc, etc, so what ever you guys have to throw at me in trade, go ahead and put it on the table. I'm basically going to treat this like an auction, so just post your offers and I'll let you know if it works for me.

[icecube57]

3-4 ish but the 5302 is a bastard child and a controller killer but an x5 is still and x5... Your best bet is to convert it to 5304 =P

[Indubitably]

3-4 ish but the 5302 is a bastard child and a controller killer but an x5 is still and x5... Your best bet is to convert it to 5304 =P

This just doesn't really make any sense for me from a logistical standpoint. I'd be investing time and effort into rewinding perhaps the fastestest and most high fill motor of its class, in order to get a slow, low fill motor, that is in much greater supply. It would be like buying a $600 Cromotor just to gut it and turn it into a 9 continents motor or something, and thats not even mentionimg the fact that I can gain much of the advantage provided by a higher winding count from wiring up that delta/wye switch.

For that matter, motors don't kill controllers; people kill controllers. If you had a 200a 120v Kelly controller to feed this thing with a nice steady diet of 100 volt goodness at a max of 160a there would be no problem whatsoever with "the motor" killing controllers. People aren't doing that though, they're taking 40a controllers, beefing the crap out of the traces and paralleling an ass load of low amp 100v mosfets together so it can handle 80a, then wondering why their controller "suddenly" makes a sound like putting a Jiffy-Pop tin in the microwave when they try to pull 10kw through it.

I'd really be much better served by using it to turn a little 16" bmx into a high powered mini racing bike and selling that, than fooling around with rewinding it. Hell, if I was going to bother with winding anything, I might as well do my own motor.

[neptronix]

Very correct about controller killing. High speed winds just need high amps / low voltage. A 24-36FET controller would drive this motor just fine on high amps.

I agree, rewinding it would be tons of work. You'd be better off buying a new motor. They're only $350 nowadays.

This would be best in a 16" wheel. This thing could be whooping fast.

[icecube57]

Very correct about controller killing. High speed winds just need high amps / low voltage. A 24-36FET controller would drive this motor just fine on high amps.

I agree, rewinding it would be tons of work. You'd be better off buying a new motor. They're only $350 nowadays.

This would be best in a 16" wheel. This thing could be whooping fast.

A days work.. or two but it would be soooo worth it.

[scriewy]

if the stator is angled you wont be able to delta-wey it, what i hear from docs 42page thread, i got only to pg 10, must continue

[neptronix]

O_O
Just buy a 5304 for $350 brand new and don't waste your time rewinding a motor.

This motor is meant to be hot rodded in a 16" wheel, period.

[icecube57]

O_O
Just buy a 5304 for $350 brand new and don't waste your time rewinding a motor.

This motor is meant to be hot rodded in a 16" wheel, period.

You cant buy a 5304 new. Making a 5302 into a 5304 isnt that hard. You unsolder the phase wires separate and label the paires. Series the the two separated pair groups and resolder the phase wires back on. With good tools it should only take a few hours. You are not "rewinding" from scratch.

[neptronix]

Oh, you're talking about just doing a delta-wye setup then.
That's different.

BUT.. you can buy a 5304, 5303, 5305...

http://lyen.com/

[icecube57]

Oh, you're talking about just doing a delta-wye setup then.
That's different.

BUT.. you can buy a 5304, 5303, 5305...

http://lyen.com/

No im not talking about delta wye. Doctorbass has and steveo has a thread on converting the x5. Its call series parallel windings or something like that. You cant do delta wye with the x5 due to the angled stator teeth as mention above. I think steveo did a 5303 to a 5306 you can do a 5302 to a 5304. The motors that lyen have are the HS and HT they arent the true 20+lbs X% ..you are probably going to counter with some europe...north america naming scheme but if you ask him the weight its going to match the weight of the HS and HT... misleading i know...
Ive been down that road with Lyen.

[neptronix]

Well.. but.. well..
Ok you win!!

Any relevant threads on the 5302 / lyen "x5" motors? i looked on electricrider's page and can't find a decent image of the "phoenix II" motor..

Can't believe he'd sell the motors called that.. just call em HS/HT..

[Indubitably]

Yeah, that nomenclature isn't really intended for buyers that are in the know and realize that the old x5s are different from the new c-lyte motors. They're pretty much just there to help people who are familiar with the old motors replace their stock with new c-lytes from the corresponding speed groupings without needing to understand what things like winding count and fill rate actually mean. Lyen isn't exactly the first guy to use this naming Ver. 2 / Phoenix 2 naming scheme either, if I'm not mistaken, its floating around on at least another 2 or three different sites.

At any rate, I'm not going to bother with the Delta Wye thing for now, so I'll just wire it up and ship it out to whom ever winds up buying it as soon as the bearings come in. I've just got too much on my plate with building the drive train for my trike project right now to be getting into more hub motor tomfoolery at the moment, but its a pretty straight forward mod for anyone inclined to go through the motions with either relays or physical switching.