High power RC motor and drive unit production

[recumpence]

OK, lots of questions since I posted last!

Here is my perspective;

#1 A hub motor system would be (believe it or not) alot harder to engineer and manufacture. Though the market would be large. For my production capability, a hub motor is pretty much not doable.

#2 I just spoke with Castle Creations. The SHV200 is being released soon, however, the entire first production run is sold out. Second run is scheduled for 3 to 4 months from now. That stinks. But, I have found the HV110 to be fantastically stable if added capacitors are used on the input side. So, for anyone looking for up to 4,000 watts at 50 volts or less, an HV110 (with input caps added) is the most cost effective choice anyway. It is 1/3 the price of an SHV200. However, I am getting an SHV200 as soon as I can get my grubby hands on one.

#3 I absolutely LOVE my Plettenberg! The way I feel about my Plettenberg is the same way Jay Leno describes the McLaren F1;

"The F1 is the most incredible car ever built up to that point. It is light, fast, powerful, refined, FANTASTIC! The down side is the cost. The car is crazy expensive!"

That is the way I feel about my Plettenberg. I am absolutely in love with it! The motor is smooth, powerful, tractable, cool running, VERY high quality, and just plain sweet! The down side is............. gulp, $1,100!

I have a local guy who wants me to order one and setup a drive for him with it. So, it looks like I may be doing that for two people now.

#4 No reason why a 219 chain can not be used for final drive. I am not using it for the secondary on the reductions because it is not needed (.25 is perfect for that stage and will be taking far less load than the final drive) and 219 is just a bit too bulky to fit the reduction unit well. I see no reason why it could not be used for the final drive to the wheel, though. My mountain bike will be running #35 chain for higher torque handling, though.

Basically, both David and I are not operating with huge budgets. I am just working with play money. Also, this is not my main business. So, I cannot devote the enormounse resources to a hub motor or a turn-key E-bike system. There will still be a bit of fabrication (minor stuff) required for installation and what-not.

Anyway, I am looking forward to the future on this stuff. I think next summer will be exciting for the E-bike world!

Matt

[CNCAddict]

The quality of my motors is pretty good, it may not have quite the fit and finish of the Plett, but as for reliability in a dirty E-bike environment it will be way better since I'll use sealed bearings and plan on making it fairly corrosion proof. Also, while there may be no squeal from the PWM frequency, it'll probably groan a little during hard acceleration. But that will go away when up to speed.

[MitchJi]

Hi,

The quality of my motors is pretty good, it may not have quite the fit and finish of the Plett, but as for reliability in a dirty E-bike environment it will be way better since I'll use sealed bearings and plan on making it fairly corrosion proof. Also, while there may be no squeal from the PWM frequency, it'll probably groan a little during hard acceleration. But that will go away when up to speed.

Slightly less fit and finish but more reliable and less noisy sounds like a better choice before factoring in the price.

That is the way I feel about my Plettenberg. I am absolutely in love with it! The motor is smooth, powerful, tractable, cool running, VERY high quality, and just plain sweet! The down side is............. gulp, $1,100!

They don't have the Heli model listed but the price here is:
http://www.icare-rc.com/plettenberg_pricelist.htm

Terminator 30-8 US$ 929.00

Thanks!

Mitch

[recumpence]

Yup, the heli version has an output shaft and an aluminum fan on the end of the bell. That motor is $1079. I actually bartered them down to $1000. Aparently they liked my project.

Matt

[etard]

Matt,
You guys seem to be working in the 4KW range, will this drive still be efficient at 1-3KW ? I plan on using the HV110 (gotta order that from Holmes) and maybe a Hacker 60 series setup. I want to stay in the 15 pound range, so battery weight is an issue.

Also, I ordered all the parts to make the servo tester throttle you posted in your recumbent build, is there anyway to wire in the signal from my magura throttle. I like how small yours is, but I think a proper throttle would be best for offroading.

[CNCAddict]

I can offer low rpm versions of the motor for people who want lower power. Even at 1000rpm the motor should still be able to push a bike pretty well, but then the motor would need to be derated to about 600W power. This motor's power output is pretty linear with RPM, double the RPM doubles the output power.

[lawsonuw]

I can offer low rpm versions of the motor for people who want lower power. Even at 1000rpm the motor should still be able to push a bike pretty well, but then the motor would need to be derated to about 600W power. This motor's power output is pretty linear with RPM, double the RPM doubles the output power.

What's the target motor weight? About 2lbs would be ideal

Lets see, 1,300rpm would let me hit my chain using a 5:1 belt and a 13T freewheel. (wish shimano made a 13T bmx freewheel) I use a 34T chainring on my cranks due to my Linear's dual drive, most other bikes use a larger chainring so could use a higher rpm or larger (quieter) freewheel. I could also hit my chain with 1,000rpm 5:1 and a quiet 16T freewheel. 600 watts at the chain would get me through the gears way faster than I could shift, and keep me over 10mph on most any hill.

Marty

[MitchJi]

Hi Matt,

#2 I just spoke with Castle Creations. The SHV200 is being released soon, however, the entire first production run is sold out. Second run is scheduled for 3 to 4 months from now. That stinks. But, I have found the HV110 to be fantastically stable if added capacitors are used on the input side. So, for anyone looking for up to 4,000 watts at 50 volts or less, an HV110 (with input caps added) is the most cost effective choice anyway. It is 1/3 the price of an SHV200. However, I am getting an SHV200 as soon as I can get my grubby hands on one.

Matt

Are there any functional differences between the SHV series and the HV series other than the input voltage?

In other words for a 50V or less system is there any advantage that you are aware of with the SHV series?

Terminator 30-8 US$ 929.00

Yup, the heli version has an output shaft and an aluminum fan on the end of the bell. That motor is $1079. I actually bartered them down to $1000. Aparently they liked my project.

Matt

Yikes Thats $150 for an output shaft and a fan

[recumpence]

Hi All,

Sorry I haven't been answering the questions in the last couple days.

OK, yes, I am still using my sprocket adaptor, not a disc brake hub yet.

The reason the Terminator is an extra $150 for a shaft and a fan is production nunmbers. There are far fewer helis of that weight than planes.

The SHV series controllers (especially the SHV200) have few more throttle input options inlcuding a simple 5k pot. They also have a crazy amount of software parameters that are user programmable. Very nice! However, if you keep things at 4kw or less (even touching 5kw at times) the HV110 works very well indeed! My advice is to add a couple 1000mf caps to the input, however. I blew a couple HV110s in the past. Once I went to the added caps, I have been fine since.

Matt

[Miles]

Haha, yeah I guess I'll officially be CNCaddict here and not Dave, lol. Anywho, I personally am going to stick a gates carbon 12mm on my bike to see how it goes. These belts are ridiculously strong, but I only have a reinforced plastic pulley right now borrowed from the ixi bike. It is designed for the poly chain belt, but I worry it will explode when I put over 100ftlbs of torque on it. Anyway, I got 3 8mm polychain pulleys for $125 with some haggling which isn't too bad. You can check them out here. http://www.ixibike.com/

Hi David,

Looks like the ixi uses components from the C-Drive system....
http://www.cycledrive.com/home.html

So, now we have a choice of 60t, 80t and 100t pulleys....

[CNCAddict]

That's awesome they're supplying the parts without haggling on the phone. I don't see the 100t pulley though. Only the 60 and 80, can you post a linky?

[Miles]

The 100t is from the Strida bike (http://www.strida.us/), it's not a C-Drive part, but it has the same BCD (104mm). There is also an earlier version of the pulley, which fits on a standard 18t sprocket.

I used it on my first build:

[MitchJi]

Hi David,

Looks like the ixi uses components from the C-Drive system....
http://www.cycledrive.com/home.html

So, now we have a choice of 60t, 80t and 100t pulleys....

Hi Miles,

They list two belt length's, 1200mm and 1280mm. Are compatible belts available in other length's?

Thanks!

Mitch

[Miles]

I should imagine they're just standard Gates PolyChain spec., so any 8M PolyChain (or even PowerGrip/HTD) belt could be used. The PolyChain belts now use carbon fibre reinforcement (as David said) and not the Kevlar listed on the C-Drive site (it's stronger and stretches less, but is a bit less forgiving....).

[CNCAddict]

Miles...I thought I would be the first to use that setup...aargh Anyhow, do you have a link to more info on your bike. I'm interested in the pulley adapter since I haven't yet designed this part. Oh, yeah it's for sure a standard Polychain 8mm tooth profile. The best prices on these belts is by far http://www.limct.com. You can get a ton of different lengths.

Edit: OK, here it is viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5313&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

[Miles]

Miles...I thought I would be the first to use that setup...aargh

David,

I thought you were going to make an adapter for the disc brake mount?

[See, also: viewtopic.php?f=28&t=7305]

[skydog]

There was Solar car out of MIT, very light weight maybe 250lbs. with batteries, etc.
One of the very cool things about it was the rear sprocket (it was a trike with 2 front wheels) that drove the rear wheel was also the rotor for the disc brake. I may have a photo of it somewhere. Nice weight and space reduction.

[CNCAddict]

I thought you were going to make an adapter for the disc brake mount?

My personal EV won't have any pedals. Just the belt going to the right side...I just want to make the setup pretty standard so I can use any top quality freewheel hub since I expect they won't last long with the huge amount of torque going to it. I've ordered most of the motor parts...and will begin carving up metal next week Still tweaking the stator and magnets....and I'm afraid this thing is gonna have HUGE cogging torque on the order of 1Nm. Prolly gonna make it a lowsy low speed EV motor. Everything I do to decrease cogging also screws up the motor performance. We'll see if that turns into a big problem, but I suspect it will be ok.

[Miles]

Ah, Ok.

The Mk III Strida pulley can be used with a standard 18t bike chain sprocket as its hub - it's not the greatest piece of engineering design I've seen, though - probably not up to your requirements.

I'm looking forward to seeing this motor...

[swbluto]

I thought you were going to make an adapter for the disc brake mount?

My personal EV won't have any pedals. Just the belt going to the right side...I just want to make the setup pretty standard so I can use any top quality freewheel hub since I expect they won't last long with the huge amount of torque going to it. I've ordered most of the motor parts...and will begin carving up metal next week Still tweaking the stator and magnets....and I'm afraid this thing is gonna have HUGE cogging torque on the order of 1Nm. Prolly gonna make it a lowsy low speed EV motor. Everything I do to decrease cogging also screws up the motor performance. We'll see if that turns into a big problem, but I suspect it will be ok.

Are you using any simulation software to greatly ease your efforts? I've seen some around, but I imagine they cost thousands given how specialized it is.

[CNCAddict]

I'm using FEMM which is free. But I have custom lua scripts to help me out. Plus, none of it really helps unless it's possible to accurately interpret the results....so your mileage may vary

P.S. Castle is still having problems with the SHV250 so now the ETA is a big question mark once again. I'm seriously thinking of starting an open brushless design group to get this going. OSMC has never really warmed up to the brushless idea, and there is a giant hole in the market for a reliable, tweakable controller that is adaptable to a range of voltages and currents. I'm developing some nice motors...but they won't be worth much without getting some serious current and voltage to them

[recumpence]

Well, I booked the entire day today for drive unit prototyping. But, my material hadn't arrived yet. So, I made something else for my bike (I will post about that later).

Anyway, it is getting dark and, WOW, UPS finally brought my materials! Of course, I have a full day of work tomorrow. So, Friday and Saturday will be devoted to machining.

David, I would love to get a 40 series motor from you. Let me know how much.

Matt

[GGoodrum]

Matt, is there another thread that descibes the details of this new single/dual reduction system you are talking about for this new motor? Did you ever post any pics/drawings of this new drive? I'm having a hard time visualizing what this will look like.

-- Gary

[recumpence]

It is hard to describe and hard to draw to show. Basically, the drive unit will consist of mechanical tubing holding the jackshaft bearings and those tubes will be held together with double clamps that look like front fork tripple clamps. The entire unit will be very adjustable and configurable for various layouts.

I am really excited to post pics of it. I will try as hard as I can to get a prototype machined ASAP.

Matt

[MitchJi]

P.S. Castle is still having problems with the SHV250 so now the ETA is a big question mark once again. I'm seriously thinking of starting an open brushless design group to get this going. OSMC has never really warmed up to the brushless idea, and there is a giant hole in the market for a reliable, tweakable controller that is adaptable to a range of voltages and currents. I'm developing some nice motors...but they won't be worth much without getting some serious current and voltage to them

Hi David,

Does this one sound good?:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6944&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

've just found this forum and would like to introduce myself in my first post.

I work for a company in Exeter, UK called Green Energy Technologies Ltd
We are just getting into the electric vehicle market with some brand new technologies. Our first product is a high efficiency Power/Motor Controller that we call Split-Pi. It converts up and down, so you can have 0 to 2 times battery voltage supplied to your motor and it is bidirectional allowing current to flow from battery to motor to accellerate your vehicle or from motor to battery for regenerative braking. It also has a nominal efficiency of 95% and peak efficiency of 99% at full load. The output voltage is PURE DC, not PWM like most other controllers. PWM controllers also loose power in motor heating, but with pure DC, motor heating is dramatically reduced. Quick specs are 0-60V +-25A (1.5kW)

We have found many applications for this particular product, I wanted to know what you all thought of it for electric vehicle applications and stir up some interest. We were currently thinking of small bike scale for this particular product. We have higher power (10kW) products in development for large bike and small car scale EVs and are also planning to produce a complete electric/full-series hybrid drive train solution using some new and novel technologies

The prices you see (£695) are for our current model of Split-Pi which is over engineered for a bike controller, we are making a smaller, lighter and cheaper version specifically for the bike market around the £250 price. I know this is still much more expensive than controllers currently on the market, but it has several key features that make it better than other things out there:
* Up and Down voltage conversion.
You could have a 36V battery pack and Split-Pi will supply 0 to 60V to the motor.
When it is down converting, Split-Pi will supply 0-36V to the motor and more current for torque
When it is up converting, Split-Pi will supply 36V-60V to the motor for extra speed
The output can be controlled smoothly from 0 - 60V

* Bidirectional for regenerative braking
Split-Pi allows the motor to recharge the batteries when braking
It will continue regenerative braking until the motor comes to a complete stop

* 95-99% Efficiency even under regenerative braking

* Pure DC output (not chopped up PWM with varying time-space ration)
keeps motors cooler and results in higher efficiencies overall


Split-Pi currently works directly with brushed DC motors, an additional commutator is required for Brushless DC multiphase motors.

Split-Pi completely replaces the PWM controllers you use at the moment. It supplies a variable DC output that can be digitally controlled using a 2wire communication protocol or it can be controlled with a variable voltage input, i.e. from a twist grip on a bike handle bar

We envisage this product occupying the high spec end of the bike market where people spend over £1000 ($1500) on a bike, the sort of people that like to have the very best in new technology.