EATSRHPV-Mart's E-Assist Tilting Full Suspension Trike build

macribs said:
Timing issues perhaps? Could it be that your hall sensors got knocked loose?
I think I would start there.

I hope it's not the Halls - I've already replaced a faulty one last year and don't want to go thru that again! :)

I don't think it is a Hall sensor as if I keep pedalling, the motor doesn't come back to life as the wheel rotates like I had with a bad Hall sensor. Instead as soon as I apply full throttle it dies and all the lights on the throttle stay off completely as I roll along. Also, if instead of full throttle, I just apply a little throttle the motor will keep running smoothy, but as soon as I put more load on the motor with more throttle it dies and will only come back if I completely power off and back on again.

It's more akin to riding with a battery that's almost flat but having tried a second battery with the same symptoms, it doesn't seem like that would be the reason. I have done a little bit of cleaning up my wiring so it is possible one of my solder joints is not perfect.

One thing I neglected to mention is that at one point I did accidentally connect the battery up with reverse polarity :oops: and got a big spark so I wonder if I've blown a component in the controller or something. The motor had started acting up prior to the re-wiring and reverse polarity accident so a few too many variables have changed to confidently point a finger at the culprit.

I should keep an eye on my Cycle Analyst and see if the voltage drops right down with more throttle which might be triggering a low voltage cut-off or something?
 
The most common problem with total power loss that doesnt' reset till powercycling is a BMS in the battery shutting off the pack for a cell group that is hitting LVC under load.

Since swapping batteries doesnt' fix it, then perhaps the controller is drawing much more current than it should be, due to perhaps a short in motor wiring somewhere?
 
amberwolf said:
The most common problem with total power loss that doesnt' reset till powercycling is a BMS in the battery shutting off the pack for a cell group that is hitting LVC under load.
Since swapping batteries doesnt' fix it, then perhaps the controller is drawing much more current than it should be, due to perhaps a short in motor wiring somewhere?

The first battery is actually about 5 years old now so it wouldn't be a surprise if it is EOL.

I think I'll have another look at that second battery as well as it hasn't been used much (apart from the odd top-up every few months to keep it healthy), so it could actually also be dodgy. Having run it in parallel with the first battery for a short while in my tests over the last few days, I wonder if that might also have caused issues?

I assume when you run two batteries in parallel, best practice would be to ensure they are as similar to each other as possible? Both batteries are supposedly 48v, but they have different full-charge voltage values - the first (rated at abut 10AH) charges up to about 51v and the second (a physically narrower battery that may only be 8AH) goes all the way to 53v off the same charger.

It might be time to buy one big 20AH battery (rather than two identical 10AH batteries to run in parallel). I did find that if I stopped pedalling while going up the steepest hills on my commute, the motor would cut out when only running off one battery, while when I was running another identical battery (that died a year ago) in parallel, the motor had more than enough power. I wonder if that might have been caused by the gauge of the wire going to each battery being a little bit on the lightweight side of things? (The batteries use standard IEC "kettle cords" which being rated for 240v AC, always struck me as not the most optimal solution for high amperage DC).

Anyone have anything good or bad to say about a 48V 20Ah Headway Battery Pack from Dillenger as a replacement?
http://dillengerelectricbikes.com.au/spares/electric-bike-kit-spares/electric-bike-kit-batteries/48v-20ah-headway-battery-pack.html
Or should I spend the extra money and get a 48V 20Ah Lithium Ion Samsung Battery (I assume it has a high rate BMS. My motor is rated at 1KW):
http://dillengerelectricbikes.com.au/spares/electric-bike-kit-spares/electric-bike-kit-batteries/48v-20ah-lithium-ion-samsung-battery.html

(note these prices are in Australian dollars - the prices don't seem too bad compared to a somewhat more bare bones battery from Ping:
http://www.pingbattery.com/servlet/the-2/lifepo4-lithium-ion-phosphate/Detail

I'll take the opportunity to up-rate the battery cabling at the same time.
 
Frakentrike said:
Having run it in parallel with the first battery for a short while in my tests over the last few days, I wonder if that might also have caused issues?
Unlikely. At worst it would discharge one to charge the other, if they were at different SoC when you plugged them into each other. If one was already near LVC when hooked to the lower voltage one, it would just cutoff if it got down that far, but then you'd probably have already known it (they) were low at that point.


I assume when you run two batteries in parallel, best practice would be to ensure they are as similar to each other as possible? Both batteries are supposedly 48v, but they have different full-charge voltage values - the first (rated at abut 10AH) charges up to about 51v and the second (a physically narrower battery that may only be 8AH) goes all the way to 53v off the same charger.
Generally it's better to run two identical packs in parallel, but as long as they are the same voltage to start with when hooked up, it doesn't matter--you just won't get full capacity out of the higher voltage pack if you have to have it partly discharged to hook them together. (if there is a voltage difference, a very high current will flow from higher to lower and could damage your wiring if it's high enough).


I run an A123 20Ah 16s and an EIG 20Ah 14s, and occasionally hook htem up in parallel, but only with the EIG a little low, because while both have the same full charge voltage, that's only because the A123's balance-level voltage is the same as the EIG's FCV. Generally I only run them one at a time, even if I need extra range on the trike.

If your packs are different FCVs, then either they are different chemistries, or different numbers of cells in series, or both. (or the chargers are not correctly set, if the packs themselves are identical).


It might be time to buy one big 20AH battery (rather than two identical 10AH batteries to run in parallel).
If you always need the extra capacity (and C-rate), or often do, then you might be better to have just the one big pack.

If you hardly ever need that, and don't want the extra weight on there (or the space is needed for other things), then two packs where you can leave one off might be better.

I did find that if I stopped pedalling while going up the steepest hills on my commute, the motor would cut out when only running off one battery, while when I was running another identical battery (that died a year ago) in parallel, the motor had more than enough power. I wonder if that might have been caused by the gauge of the wire going to each battery being a little bit on the lightweight side of things?
Unlikely. More likely the cells just couldn't put out the current with just one, and so one or some hit LVC, or the pack's BMS detected overcurrent for the one pack, and cutout.

What does your wattmeter show as a load on those hills, without pedalling, and then again with pedalling?

What does it show on level ground?


(The batteries use standard IEC "kettle cords" which being rated for 240v AC, always struck me as not the most optimal solution for high amperage DC).
It's not so much the current, I think, as the serious potential for accidentally plugging stuff directly into the wall, forgetting the charger in between. :(


Anyone have anything good or bad to say about a 48V 20Ah Headway Battery Pack from Dillenger as a replacement?
Only thing to be said about headway or ping is that neither is a high-c-rate pack, so you should get one with the Ah equal to or greater than your typical worst-case constant current draw (like on those steep hills), as they will have greater sag at higher c-rates than 1C (1 x packAh), and worse as they age, and it will also age them faster to draw that a lot.

They can both be used at higher rates, and may be rated for 2C or even 3C, depending on the cell versions, but various threads have shown they'll probably be better off at lower rates.
 
Well, after weeks and weeks of scratching my newbie head and trying a few things, I finally found out what the problem was. (and thanks Amberwolf - you hit the nail on the head!) :)

Thanks to the testing equipment and knowledge of a very good friend (thanks Tony!), I discovered my second battery (an 8Ah 48v battery) cuts out at a load of 20A and several other brand new 48v 11.6Ah Samsung e-bike batteries I tried with the trike also cut out with current draw of abut 24A or so. Only an identical no-name brand 48V 10Ah battery as my first battery was able to put out the 30A of current which my motor draws when under load.

The reason this was confusing me was that my 8Ah 48v battery seemed to work fine on my trike before my first battery failed, but after the first battery died this 8Ah battery seemed to be failing as well when I tried to run the trike solely off it. Of course I now realise it was only working before when in parallel with the first battery which meant each battery only had to deliver 10-15A which worked fine. However, when I tried to run the 8Ah battery by itself, that's when the full 30A load of the motor caused it to cut out.

Likewise when I tried those brand new 48v 11.6Ah Samsung batteries by themselves. They couldn't handle the 30A load and also cut out under load. However, once I finally tried an identical 10Ah 48v battery to my dead battery that did support a 30A load, it finally worked by itself. Then when I paralleled in that 8Ah 20A battery, it also worked fine because of the shared current load.

I'm assuming that this 48V 10Ah battery must have 3C cells in it if it is able to supply 30A continuously without cutting out. Would that be correct? Guess this is what you get when you buy batteries from suppliers who can't tell you the really important statistics on their batteries. Trying to find out from Dillinger what the C rating of their 20Ah 48v Samsung batteries are has been just as difficult.

Anyway, the upshot is that my trike is now performing beautifully again, so I can start to work on a few other things now like getting hold of a DC-DC converter that will allow me to drive my 9-24v Tribal Whips Aurora animated LED flag pole from my 48v batteries instead of trying to get it to work off my 8.4v lighting battery circuit.

I might even start mocking up the light-weight roll cage and windscreen/roof that I've been planning for ages.
 
I was charging my 48v batteries last night and they seemed to be taking much longer than usual for the charger to turn off showing a green light, so I disconnected the charger and checked the voltage was shocked to see my Cycle Analyst displaying over 57 volts.

These two batteries if I charge them separately charge up to 50v and 54v respectively, though I have often charged them while connected together in parallel as they normally are when driving the trike, under which circumstance they usually charge to about 52v give or take. Have I gone and killed the BMS units on the batteries or something do you think?

Checking the trike again this morning they show 55.4v which is closer to normal, though still high.

I'm now wondering whether I should tempt fate and ride the trike to work or not in case it dies mid-way. Oh well, only one way to find out I guess.
 
Frakentrike said:
I was charging my 48v batteries last night and they seemed to be taking much longer than usual for the charger to turn off showing a green light, so I disconnected the charger and checked the voltage was shocked to see my Cycle Analyst displaying over 57 volts.
These two batteries if I charge them separately charge up to 50v and 54v respectively, though I have often charged them while connected together in parallel as they normally are when driving the trike, under which circumstance they usually charge to about 52v give or take. Have I gone and killed the BMS units on the batteries or something do you think?
Checking the trike again this morning they show 55.4v which is closer to normal, though still high.
I'm now wondering whether I should tempt fate and ride the trike to work or not in case it dies mid-way. Oh well, only one way to find out I guess.

Well, the batteries were exhausted about 1 km from home so I had to pedal the heavy trike the remainder of the way home from work. That commute and a separate non-stop test run till I exhausted the batteries indicate that my two batteries in parallel can only muster 10.8Ah which gives me only 27km range.

Definitely looks like it is time for a new 20Ah battery. Hopefully that 20Ah 48v Samsung battery (with high rate BMS designed for 1.5KW motors) from Dillinger http://dillengerelectricbikes.com.a...ies/48v-20ah-lithium-ion-samsung-battery.html can sustain 30A output and not keep cutting out like the 11.6Ah 48v Samsung batteries I tried last week. Dillinger still hasn't been able to confirm what the C rating on the cells is. :-(

I charged the batteries again last night and this time the charger did turn off at 57.5v. I wonder if that is killing my main battery that normally charges to only 50v?
 
Awesome job on your tilting trike, very well done :D

You should consider monitoring each cell individually in order to save time, money and a lot of frustration. Cells will always go unbalanced soon or later ( some cells may also die, I guess this is what happened in your case ) and you have to rely on your BMS. But the BMS can also fail eventually.

I was able to see a bad cell pulling down a 4 cells in parallel pack and I only had to replace the cell that died instead of all 4.
Knowing the minimum and maximum voltage of each separate cells will avoid destroying the battery pack either by going too low or too high Voltage.

I made this small case for my trike:
KMX%20meterbox%203C_1024x768.jpg


Each of those cell meter will monitor 6 individual cells. you can set an audible alarm to both a maximum and a minimum cell voltage.

Sadly, those above ane now discontinued at Hobbyking ( they were around 20US$ ea )

If you go that way, you must have a switch to disconnect the black wire of each cell meter as they need to be reset sometime.

Also, do not buy those ( bad quality ) : http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/RC_PRODUCT_SEARCH.asp?strSearch=HK-CM-06
 
Thanks for the suggestions Adam, I'll look into my options on the battery monitoring front. Thanks for the link to the battery monitors to avoid - do you have a recommendation for a model that is still available that is good? :)

ps. I just had a look at the latest updates to your KMX build and that is one amazing monster trike you have there! The front suspension looks great. I certainly love having a full suspension trike, it is sooooo much more pleasant to ride than my old unsuspended trike.
 
Well Dillinger has removed their 48v 20Ah Samsung batteries from their website, so I've decided to order a 20Ah 48v LiFePo4 V5 battery pack from Ping Batteries with a high rate BMS as it looks like that combination should easily handle 40A (60A instantaneous peak) current draw from the motor. With the 5A charger, charge time should also be nicely reduced as well.

So, I'm now wondering if anyone has incorporated the 240v/110v charger for your e-bike batteries into the frame of your ebike/vehicle so you can just plug the vehicle straight into a power socket to charge?

I'm considering the advantages of being able to plug into any 240v/110v power point to juice up anywhere, but wondering how the charger could be kept safe from rain etc while still ensuring it didn't over-heat while charging the battery pack. Maybe a box with a sealed lid that swings open to reveal the charger and extension lead to provide air cooling while charging and then can be locked shut again when riding to ensure it stays sealed away from the elements. I certainly have plenty of room for both batteries and charger behind the seat. Hmm.

View attachment 1

I've charged my existing LiFePo4 batteries on the trike for the last 5 years without any issues hence why I was quite happy to go with LiFePo4 batteries from Ping to allow me not to worry that I should be charging the batteries in a steel box away from the vehicle. Does anyone think I'm crazy even so? :)
 
Well my 20Ah 48v Ping batteries and high rate BMS finally arrived after 2 months on the slow boat from China and I have finally installed them. I'll post photos soon. Thanks for your recommendation Tats. So far they look great and Li Ping's replies to a few of my emails are fantastically prompt and informative. Great service - just a shame Lithium Ion batteries aren't allowed to be shipped by plane anymore.

The boost to my top speed is wonderful - I'm getting over 50 kmph on the flat from my first quick tests this evening (the old pack hit about 41 kmph on the flat) on my highest power setting.

Now however, I'm finding the throttle is sticking on after riding at full speed for a few minutes. The only thing that stops the trike hurtling forward is turning off the ignition key. I also have to wait for a few seconds before turning it back on or else once it warms up it just immediately goes to full throttle again and stays there. Twisting the throttle twist grip fully on and fully off has no effect.

Would you guys suspect a faulty throttle twist grip or the controller perhaps? I really need to hook up motor cut-outs on the brake levers for situations like this.
 
amberwolf said:
Bad ground in throttle, perhaps.

Thanks for the suggestion Amberwolf, I'll have a look at that first.
 
So it turns out that the Trivek tilting delta trike lives only a few suburbs away from my house so Alan and Aldo from Trivek popped around this afternoon to say hi and have fun trying out each other's take on tilting trikes. Trivek are currently discussing options for adding an electric hub motor to their beastie - I'm dying to see how they accomplish that. :)

Here's a couple of videos of Aldo and I on our respective trikes:

[youtube]EkbDut9dwxE[/youtube]

[youtube]gZ4eCHASyUo[/youtube]

And some photos:

EDIT: Hmm, can someone tell me why the photos are appearing cropped? bbcode resize tags don't seem to work?

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Perth, the Tilting Trike Capital of the World!! :)
 
I received my new 48v 20Ah LiFePo v5 Ping batteries a few months ago and fitted them to the trike in a new battery bag - an old data projector carry bag in fact. The Battery bag is easily accessed behind the seat by hinging forward the seat on adjustable rear supports:

Ping Batteries in bag.jpg
Plenty of room in the bag for more cells if needed. The wiring is pretty messy at the moment, but I'll clean that up soon.
View attachment 4Seat up for battery access.jpgseat fully up.jpg
battery bage tied down.jpg

The Ping battery pack ended up with a bad cell that has pulled the capacity down to 15.7Ah from the 19Ah I was getting the first time I ran it, but Li Ping is kindly shipping me some replacement cells at no charge that I'll solder in once they arrive.
 
I've also now added a mid-mounted derailleur behind the seat to give me extra high range gears so I can pedal at a more acceptable cadence when hitting the top speeds that the motor allows me to go - particularly when going down hill. The bottom bracket in the rear suspension swing-arm proved to be the perfect location to mount a spare rear axle on which I screwed another 7-speed cassette. The rear chain loop goes around the largest sprocket and then back to the main 7-speed cassette on the rear wheel.

side view pannier on.jpgside view pannier off.jpgmid-mout derailleur.jpgmid-mount close up left.jpgmid mount closeup front.jpg

The lower 5 sprockets are reserved for the front chain loop that goes all the way to the pedals at the front. I've restricted the derailleur to only allow this chain to use the smaller 5 sprockets on this mid-mount cassette. It works great. I originally had a Schlumpf Speed Drive on the front pedal crank, but unfortunately that seized up and I haven't been able to get it fixed, hence the need for this extra gearing.

This mid-mount derailleur does hang down lower than the chain did previously, so we'll see how well it holds up going down kerbs.

I added a 7-speed twist-grip Shimano Gear changer to the right hand grip to control this mid-mounted derailleur:
right hand grip.jpg
The Shimano is at the bottom of the right grip while the Twist grip throttle for the electric motor is at the top of the grip. Notice the electric horn on the left just above the throttle and the iPhone holder clamps between the horn and the mirror.
 
Wheazel said:
Nice build, looks like a similar but far from identical solution I did on my upright tilting trike.
That one had no self stabilizing mechanism and was ridden as a regular bike.
I do enjoy the ability to stabilise/control the tilt angle with the steering levers. Gives me a significantly greater feeling of security such that I can enjoy doing power slides around corners in the wet without fear of the trike dropping me on the tarmac.
Wheazel said:
How are the wheel angles when movement occurs in steering and suspension?
Your front tires look very worn out.
I'd say the biggest issue would be losing perfect Ackerman compensation geometry when fully tilted going around tight corners. With my current design, the king pins are angled outwards and downwards to provide zero point steering to eliminate bump steer and brake steer. However, it means that as the suspensions tilts, the outer king pin ends up getting close to horizontal at full tilt which messes up the steering geometry if the wheels are turned by more than a small amount. Thankfully, normally when the trike is fully tilted, it is also going fast, which means it is going around a large radius turn which means the wheels are turned by only a small amount reducing the negative affect of the tilted king pins.

The good news is, I don't hear or feel any wheel scrubbing when cornering even when I manually tilt the trike and roll it around a tight turn while standing next to it which is encouraging. As you noticed, I am seeing a fair bit of front tyre wear even so, though some of that at least could be due to me pushing the envelope cornering at 30-40 kmph all the time and fooling around doing 3-wheel drifting around corners in the wet! :D

Down the track I plan to replace the front wheels with dished wheels that would allow me to put the king pins vertically inside the wheels to maintain a near perfect parallel geometry for the steering when tilted but at this stage I am quite happy with the current design.

You can get a bit of an idea of the effect of tilting on steering geometry when fully tilted in this video clip:
[youtube]koADanl4-vo[/youtube]
 
Got an early birthday present a little while ago - a DJI Mavic Pro quad-copter that does a quite impressive job automatically following me on my trike:

[youtube]RvpMwI7WAXA[/youtube]

The drone can be set to circle you as you ride or follow along from the side or back and has sensors at the front and bottom to avoid obstacles in those directions. Lots of fun.

Just need to find a nice twisty cycle path without too many trees...
 
Flying my DJI Mavic Pro drone in Active Track, follow-me and circle-me modes in light and strong 25-30 knot winds riding my trike around the Swan River interspersed with a bit of GoPro footage showing the rider's eye view and the tilting suspension at work.

[youtube]vZ6-_mKERUg[/youtube]
 
Video tour of the LED light strips and handlebar controls delivering turn indicators, driving lights and brake lights for the trike. Bonus demonstration of the tilting suspension and illustration of the suspension getting a workout while tilted.

[youtube]wLmHCX4uZFY[/youtube]
 
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