Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

Is the least expensive option $1579 AUD (0.76 conversion is $1196 USD)? And that's without some of the optional upgrades.



It looks like they did some nice stuff to it (although some arguably unnecessary depending on your intended use). But it only takes a little to make the Cyclone reliable. What voltage are you planning to run it at? Are you going to run the stock controller unmodified? How fast do you want to go? How do you plan to use your bike? Commuting? Technical trails?

I wouldn't say the Cyclone is the best because the BBSHD is really quiet, which is why I'm seriously considering changing from a Cyclone 3000 to the BBSHD. It depends on your needs.

Megsy73 said:

...So after all that the best is the new C3000w cyclone ?

I just saw online some details of the new AFT C3000w kit, this would have to be the best C3000w kit ?
http://www.aft-ebike.com/c3000w.html

It looks to have stronger mounting brackets, kelly sinewave controller, ceramic bearings and some other things to reduce the weight . It looks pretty good, high power, low noise and low weight...

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I think the reason he wasn't getting as much power from his battery was because he was using a 4p (4 banks in parallel) pack. An 8p Samsung 25r pack should be able to deliver 160 amps continuously.

Alex07 said:

...I was reading this recent review of the tangent which was quite negative actually that it was very noisy and the 3220 couldn't pump out anywhere near 6kw with a normal ebike battery pack.
https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/09/19/tangent-ascent-welcome-to-the-world-of-impossibly-light-electric-motocross/

From my reading here it seems their is no perfect mid drive kit, everyone has some compromise /benefits pick and choose what you want or what fits !

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This new AFT C3000w kit looks interesting ...

Seems they have replaced all the junk stock parts it seems from the cyclone C3000w.. Why buy from Luna -Just buy this from Cyclone Taiwan it will be cheaper with the same problems. Their is a whole thread about all the bracket flex and freewheel failures.. sinewave kelly and stronger freewheels and brackets fixes ... and they have done some cool stuff it seems to reduce the weight too . if people are happy with the stock C3000w and Gman has done 6.5kw peak on this motor so thats Astro power without the noise ! looks like a winner, Eager to see any reviews on this.

Has somebody tried the upgraded plastic gears with the Cyclone 1600?


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I wouldn't say the Cyclone is the best because the BBSHD is really quiet, which is why I'm seriously considering changing from a Cyclone 3000 to the BBSHD.

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I wouldn't call the BBSHD high powered it may be quiet but its not high powered that's its biggest downfall, in stock form its a wimpy 1600w peak, heck thats even less than the mini cyclone which is like 2900w peak, that's more on par with the 36v 960w cyclone that also peaks around 1700w .. no wounder it's so quiet. ALL kits are quieter at lower power,lower voltage and lower rpm their is nothing special about it at that power. And from the vids i have seen online the once quiet now overvolted 72v BBSHD sound like high revving astro motors ! having high power with low noise is the tricky part so this AFT c3000w kits looks like the ultimate mid drive kit based on the opps feedback of the stock C3000 . Anyone user feedback on this new AFT kit yet ?

juanfeli said:

Has somebody tried the upgraded plastic gears with the Cyclone 1600?

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Cyclone 1680W uses 33T gears. I dont know what is diameter. I found on Alliexpress 33T nylon gears 35mm diameter:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Out...2716733569.html?spm=2114.40010408.3.10.K8duMv

Well, Cyclone Taiwan will charge you $93 in shipping charges, so it is not cheaper to order from them. Bracket flex can easily be fixed with a 1/2" x 1/8" aluminum bar and some bolts. The freewheel can last thousands of miles, and they're only $20. And as you said, Gman has proven that the Cyclone can last.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=1375#p1223967

jk1 said:

...Why buy from Luna -Just buy this from Cyclone Taiwan it will be cheaper with the same problems. Their is a whole thread about all the bracket flex and freewheel failures.. sinewave kelly and stronger freewheels and brackets fixes ... and they have done some cool stuff it seems to reduce the weight too . if people are happy with the stock C3000w and Gman has done 6.5kw peak on this motor so thats Astro power without the noise ! looks like a winner, Eager to see any reviews on this.

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How much power is "high-powered" to you? Have you seen this thread? This guy is running 3500 watts through his BBSHD. Maybe you have seen it because of your comment about its noise. It only sounds noisy in some videos because of where the camera is mounted. He has several Cyclone units, so I trust him when he says it's quiet. Did you see the parts in the video where the camera is mounted on a tripod? The bike is virtually silent!

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=1375#p1223967

The Cyclone Mini cannot handle 2900W. On the first page of this thread, under "cons," the OP says it overheats and shuts down.

Alex07 said:

I wouldn't call the BBSHD high powered it may be quiet but its not high powered that's its biggest downfall, in stock form its a wimpy 1600w peak, heck thats even less than the mini cyclone which is like 2900w peak, that's more on par with the 36v 960w cyclone that also peaks around 1700w .. no wounder it's so quiet. ALL kits are quieter at lower power,lower voltage and lower rpm their is nothing special about it at that power. And from the vids i have seen online the once quiet now overvolted 72v BBSHD sound like high revving astro motors ! having high power with low noise is the tricky part so this AFT c3000w kits looks like the ultimate mid drive kit based on the opps feedback of the stock C3000 . Anyone user feedback on this new AFT kit yet ?

Click to expand...

How much power is "high-powered" to you? Have you seen this thread? This guy is running 3500 watts through his BBSHD. Maybe you have seen it because of your comment about its noise. It only sounds noisy in some videos because of where the camera is mounted. He has several Cyclone units, so I trust him when he says it's quiet. Did you see the parts in the video where the camera is mounted on a tripod? The bike is virtually silent!

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=1375#p1223967

The Cyclone Mini cannot handle 2900W. On the first page of this thread, under "cons," the OP says it overheats and shuts down.

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From the vides online the stock BBSHD is near silent and in the videos i have seen from Evolution their is a lot of motor and gear noise, i wouldn't be surprised if its twice the Decibels from the stock kit that is so quiet . yes stock form 1600w is low power nearly half the cyclone mini, what i was talking about as a lot of people won't like the noise that comes with the 72v, you need to compare noise at the same power level as every gear system and motor is noiser at higher load and Rpm. Why would i trust Evolution when he is selling these kits ? of course he would say its quiet when in the video its clearly not...

Egokits sells the mini cyclone with 3.2kw peak ! And you can easily make it not overheat by running higher Voltage and RPM in the gearing like this opp did:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=73027
All motors are less efficient and create more heat at low rpm, most just don't get that and use the wrong gearing and overload the motor.

You're hearing the noise because of where the camera is mounted. If you watch the tripod sections of the video, you'll hear that the bike is virtually silent.

I asked him if the BBSHD at 88V is quieter than the Cyclone at 48/52V, and he said, "yes." I have no reason to suspect he is lying.

Alex07 said:

From the vides online the stock BBSHD is near silent and in the videos i have seen from Evolution their is a lot of motor and gear noise, i wouldn't be surprised if its twice the Decibels from the stock kit that is so quiet . yes stock form 1600w is low power nearly half the cyclone mini, what i was talking about as a lot of people won't like the noise that comes with the 72v, you need to compare noise at the same power level as every gear system and motor is noiser at higher load and Rpm. Why would i trust Evolution when he is selling these kits ? of course he would say its quiet when in the video its clearly not...

Egokits sells the mini cyclone with 3.2kw peak ! And you can easily make it not overheat by running higher Voltage and RPM in the gearing like this opp did:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=73027
All motors are less efficient and create more heat at low rpm, most just don't get that and use the wrong gearing and overload the motor.

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I asked him if the BBSHD at 88V is quieter than the Cyclone at 48/52V, and he said, "yes." I have no reason to suspect he is lying.

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Did Evolution compare with a DBA meter side by side to clearly say yes ? DId he compare them in the same situation, same power same speed and both useing a sinewave controller ? Both motors are a lot quieter with sine controllers so you need to compare like with like. No he didn't but he is so certain its quieter because he sells the BBSHD at 84v... For me this sounds fishy because the stock BBSHD at 48v maybe is just quieter than the C3000w but from the videos online the 84v BBSHD is a lot louder then stock silent 48v BSSHD so how can it still be quieter than the C3000w ?? You need to be careful with opinions of people in life who sell stuff only a 3rd party can compare it unbiased .

I guess we'll have to wait until someone else that has tried both can comment. The problem with using a meter would obviously be wind noise unless you want him to measure it on a stand, and then the motor wouldn't be loaded, so the results might not reflect what it sounds like when ridden.

Unless he has a video of a Cyclone for you to compare it with, I don't think we can draw any conclusions. Other people's videos are recorded with a different mic/conditions, so they aren't useful for comparison.

Why do you say both motors are quieter with sine wave controllers?

From what I've read in reviews of the BBSHD, I gather that it's virtually silent to passers by. People keep commenting on how quiet it is. On the other hand, there are people complaining about how loud the Cyclone is. I have the Cyclone. I don't think it's that loud at 52V. So if the BBSHD is really that quiet, I will be thrilled. So I would certainly hope the BBSHD is not just maybe quieter than the Cyclone 3000.

He might be selling things, but he also has a reputation to withhold. If people start saying bad things about his products, that won't be so good for his company.

Just out of curiosity, what mid drives have you tried?

Alex07 said:

Did Evolution compare with a DBA meter side by side to clearly say yes ? DId he compare them in the same situation, same power same speed and both useing a sinewave controller ? Both motors are a lot quieter with sine controllers so you need to compare like with like. No he didn't but he is so certain its quieter because he sells the BBSHD at 84v... For me this sounds fishy because the stock BBSHD at 48v maybe is just quieter than the C3000w but from the videos online the 84v BBSHD is a lot louder then stock silent 48v BSSHD so how can it still be quieter than the C3000w ?? You need to be careful with opinions of people in life who sell stuff only a 3rd party can compare it unbiased .

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from recumpense,

For crank drive systems, nothing can touch the Tangent for size and form factor, that is for sure. For sheer ruggedness at a low cost in a crank drive system, LightningRods is tough to beat. The Cyclone? Well, hmm, read up on them. They function, but they are very problematic.

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Let us say, You get what you pay for and you have what you have improved upon. I have both the LR SMBK and the C-3000. They are not equivalent. LRSMBK >= 3x Cyclone-3000 in $$$. Sparing many details, I would take the C-3000 kit over the LRSMBK plug & play.

Problematic? I tore the OEM 25mm Gates Belt on the LRSMBK on the second attempt of a difficult hill climb? I question your sheer ruggedness suggestion for the LRSMBK kit as for me the C-3000 is holding up much better and it can do a little more.



But I must agree:

Every drive system has its pluses and minuses.

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My suspicion is that the belt cannot take the drivetrain shock loading this hill gives it. And No, I have not improved upon the Gates Belt.

Let us say, You get what you pay for and you have what you have improved upon. I have both the LR SMBK and the C-3000. They are not equivalent. LRSMBK >= 3x Cyclone-3000 in $$$. Sparing many details, I would take the C-3000 kit over the LRSMBK plug & play.

Problematic? I tore the OEM 25mm Gates Belt on the LRSMBK on the second attempt of a difficult hill climb? I question your sheer ruggedness suggestion for the LRSMBK kit as for me the C-3000 is holding up much better and it can do a little more.

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That's a good point you definitely get what you pay for. The AFT kits are some of the most reliable I have seen cheecky bloke has done 9000 miles on his but this comes at a cost of course, ACS freewheels, Ceramic bearings, wipperman chain, Kelly controllers and all the other stronger parts cost money. Their is no way around it if you want high power, light and reliable. of course the stock C3000w will work but the question is for how long? and how many failures and parts replacements ? and when will these cheap parts break when u least expect it...
eg. people who ride out in the woods in the middle of nowhere, I don't think would want a chain break or freewheel fail in the middle of nowhere....
In that case you would need ultimate reliability .... but heck if u want the cheapest kit expect to have problems.... That's my worry with these people running the BBSHD in uncharted power territory of 72v 3kw and above...


How does the Lighting rod small block compare in terms of power and noise to the C3000w ?

I'm more than willing to chance it on the $350 Cyclone vs a >$1000 AFT kit (partly because I love to tinker). I carry a spare $20 KMC chain in my backpack. A freewheel failure isn't catastrophic. If the motor freewheel fails, it locks, so that's not that big of a deal. If you need to pedal, you can remove the chain with your bare hands. If the crankset freewheel fails, it will just make noise. I doubt it suddenly fails in a way that prevents you from being able to use your bike. But you're right that you have to pay (and pay dearly) if you want the best. I guess I can see someone paying that much if it's their main mode of transportation. I just can't imagine any circumstance where I'd pay that much for it.

The high-power BBSHD has been tested to over 450 miles. I know that's not much for a commuter, but for a trail rider like me that rides 10 mile trails a few times a month, that's plenty good enough for me. But I'm still curious how long it will last him.

If the LSRB is anything like the 2015 GNG belt kit, I'm going to guess it is noisier. When I switched from my GNG back to my Cyclone, it was so much quieter! Let's see what Dingus says =)

jk1 said:

That's a good point you definitely get what you pay for. The AFT kits are some of the most reliable I have seen cheecky bloke has done 9000 miles on his but this comes at a cost of course, ACS freewheels, Ceramic bearings, wipperman chain, Kelly controllers and all the other stronger parts cost money. Their is no way around it if you want high power, light and reliable. of course the stock C3000w will work but the question is for how long? and how many failures and parts replacements ? and when will these cheap parts break when u least expect it...
eg. people who ride out in the woods in the middle of nowhere, I don't think would want a chain break or freewheel fail in the middle of nowhere....
In that case you would need ultimate reliability .... but heck if u want the cheapest kit expect to have problems.... That's my worry with these people running the BBSHD in uncharted power territory of 72v 3kw and above...


How does the Lighting rod small block compare in terms of power and noise to the C3000w ?

Click to expand...

Let's see what Dingus says =)

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I pretty much concur with what Robo says as I too am a tinker, problem solver like I gather he is. When I said you get what you pay for, I actually meant that line as sarcasm. You see a lot of folks boasting how many $$ they paid for an item as if spending a lot of $$ concurs with quality. No you get what you drag home after paying the piper [literally].

Note, I do not have the C-3000 and the LRSMB rigged identical but here are some comparison details. 72v C-3000 on FSR OEM controller, the LR 88v on Fat w/Lyen controller. On a 50% grade smooth 2-track as measured with digital level the Cyclone made it to the summit with no petaling and the LR Fat needed some petaling near the top as it seemed it was about to stall. So they are similar in power as the fat bike weights a little more and has a little more voltage.

Hands down the LRSMB is noisier than the C-3000.

I have another C-3000 mounted on a Specialized Hardtail Pro S-10 with 41" wheel base. It is the nimblest of machines around for uphill technical rock trails. There is no need for the 14,000 watts we hear Recompense talk about as you would be out of control with more than 2000 watts. These trails likely are much harder for those Enduro like bikes of 52" wheelbase. Granted with enough suspension that, an Enduro bike might have, you can plow through/over some uniform cobble fields. Both the Hardtail Pro and the LR mount [also hardtail] have destroyed drivetrain hardware weak links [ cluster carrier & Gates belt respectively] on very difficult hill climbing attempts but the FSR has not. No doubt all of three of the bikes on severe hill climbs are subject to conditions that would seemingly produce drivetrain shock loading. After some pondering and reasoning about why the FSR bike has had no drive train shock load failures I concluded it was due to the rear suspension taking up the inertial effects of a rear spinning wheel hitting the ground and the sprung weight of the rear wheel keeping better rear wheel ground control than a hardtail could manage. In order to get rear suspension working to prevent/lessen drive train shock loading I set rear shock air pressure at 33% above the pressure suggested for my weight.

I have no qualms about the C-3000, its OEM controller, or my fame modification holding up on some long backcountry ride of 40 miles of abuse. The frame modification I did to the C-3000 makes it somewhat stiffer[by dial gauge/load deflection testing] than the LR frame. I do carry chains and a cluster carrier on long rides. It is/has been only the bike parts that fail -- I use mostly Shimano chains as they are about 1/3 the price of that German Wipperman I could drag home and it is only 50lbs stronger than a Shimano in a tension test.

Am I forgetting? I have had some motor freewheel failures. Maybe I could carry one and some pullers to remove it. I have had an 18 mile pedal home when one failed totally by coming apart.

So the C3000w is quieter and more torque than the LR small block interesting as i though the motors were similar ?

The wiperman chains main advantage is that they are one of the few bike chains that are bushing type.. which means they wear out less and hence last a lot longer then normal bike chain bushingless designs that are optimized for weight reduction not life and strength... this might sound trivial but that chain is constantly wearing and stretching and the more it does more the risk of derailments -cheap chain will cause you lots of dramas especially on high power.

Dingus true freewheel failures can happen and then comes the walk home of shame, you are lucky because in some cases the chain can derail and lockup agaisnt the bike or chainrings.... then needs a chain puller/breaker to get off.. ask John Bozi and how many problems he had with the LR small block on steep mountain terrain.... high power mid drives are not like hub motors they are lot more difficult to be reliable it seems.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=71633&start=225
so u really want very good freewheels and chains to start with, especially if in heavy offroad terrain or in the middle of nowhere or going to work on a deadline with black hands in your pockets unless you want to spend your time and effort swearing and changing parts all the time.. pay once and do it properly i say or keep paying and then when you add all the time and costs you probably wished you hadn't cheaped out to begin with on the chains and freewheels.

So

the C3000w is quieter and more torque than the LR small block interesting as i though the motors were similar ?

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The motor unit alone of the LR may be quieter than the C-3000 but I think it is LR's drivetrain that makes the motor/frame setup noiser. I do say they are similar in power. Torque? If they are similar in power they can be geared to have the same torque at a similar speed.

As for chains -- Mine pull apart at the plates [not broken pins] before too much wear to operate sets in, so I do not think the answer is a chain with bushings. It is easy to carry a chain under the seat and install it using a pull together link and put the Shimano one-time pin in when I get home. I have installed plates and smaller ring spacers to keep the chain from getter between the chainrings or the fame and I run a very snug chain. I cannot do 44 front and 34 rear nor the next lower one -- not enough chain with the derailleur arm horizontal to reach around them. I do not need all those gears just the range.

And if this discussion is about motor reliability, as Recumpence touts/questions of the C-3000, then the need for a Wippermann chain is a bike part and not a Cyclone motor part.

I get plenty of uneventful rides as measured by motor/bike part failures so some of these cures suggested are not for my machines supposed aliments. I seem to have far less noise/ gear train [ratio?] problems than what one can read about on Cyclone 3000 thread.

I do have a very soft start throttle/motor response.

It is all okay, but the Mini-Cyclone is now in the parts box and is classified as a waste of money.

But the orginal XM Carbon Speed has matured and had a child.

There is a second XM Carbon Speed full suspension and it has gown up to be like its daddy with a Cyclone 3000w.
http://www.xmcarbonspeed.com/Productinfo.asp?f=1402 (FYI, Peter at XM Carbon Speed is a very good person do work with)

IMHO, a carbon full suspension bike with Cyclone 3000w very close to being the ultimate woods bike and here are some of the reasons.

1. Versatile mounting options: Relatively speaking it was easy to make longer/stronger brackets to facilitate inside the frame mounting for improved ground clearance
2. Good power to weight ratio: The BBS-HD feels like it is broken or has dead batteries when compared to the Cyclone 3000w
3. Reasonable noise levels: Few people have noticed or commented on the sound.... the mini cyclone was obnoxious and not useable on public areas
4. Low Cost: When compared to the cost of carbon components, Lipo batteries, BBS-HD the Cyclone 3000w is a bargain
5. Dependable: Maybe it because the mounts are well made, but nothing has broken during deliberate nasty thrashing rides in the woods... that not to say something won't break, but it was surprising that efforts to ride hard and break something... nothing broke

Bottomline, the Cyclone 3000 is awesome, but don't let anyone tell you that weight doesn't matter on ebikes... A full suspension carbon ebike in the woods using a battery backpack is another world when compared to the weight and mass of an aluminum BBS-HD ebike... Bafang is now boring...

Nice build with the C3000w ! if you mounted the motor under the frame then you could fit the battery in the frame and have it off your back ?

what is the total weight of the bike now ? what voltage and current do you run peak ?

And does that carbon frame have any flex of the rear swing arm issues with the C3000w torque ?

I'd love to hear what Dingus has to say about this.

What do you mean by "another world?" What are the benefits? Doesn't this depend on what you're after? I just want a little assist, and the quietness of the BBSHD is attractive. Is the BBSHD as quiet as they say it is? Have you tried increasing the current to it? Are you using your bike more like an electric motorcycle, not pedaling at all?

elementary said:

...don't let anyone tell you that weight doesn't matter on ebikes... A full suspension carbon ebike in the woods using a battery backpack is another world when compared to the weight and mass of an aluminum BBS-HD ebike... Bafang is now boring...

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There are 4 types of "trails" that I ride/attempt to ride with my e-dirt-bike:

1. trails made for Mt Bikes by mt bike trail makers etc and mt bike use of hiking trails [single tracks]

1.5 Ebike trails?? Boring?

2. trails made by motorcyclists to be difficult for motor cycles

3. Trails made for ATV's that are difficult for ATV's. Whew! I cannot touch some of these.

4. Hill climbs of any sort ?

5. MUD? Who wants to go there? or gives a damn about what mud boggers do?


Each of the first 4 riding/driving challenges seem to have a best machine for doing them. There are trails around here in each of these 4 categories that I cannot do very well or at all.

I have taken my ebike on difficult motorcycle trails and got concurrence from the local experts of mt bike riders that these trails are no fun with only human powered bikes. They cannot make the hills among many other problems. When I do these kind of rides, I ride my ebike like a motorcycle -- using considerable power and manning it to keep the front end down.

As for parts of a mt bike designed trail that are difficult for me on an ebike, I find shooting through a required pedal synchronized passage that is a narrow gap much harder on an ebike than a petal only mt bike. And a regular small motor cycle just would not fit -- maybe flip-up foot pegs?

In Mt biking the rider tries to pull/push the bike in every conceivable direction to get the human [ low] powered gadget around and/or over obstacles. And the bike is usually quite easy to carry. Powerful trail riding ebikes on the other hand are the transition to motorcycles [dirt bikes] in power and the way we handle them. I suppose that Robo in his quest for ultimate light weight ebike may have a battery of 20 Samsung 25R cells and a seat tube motor?

As for liking to carry the battery in a backpack, I will stick with the physics that the rotational inertia of the battery in a backpack is many times higher than the same battery configured to fit very low and between the wheels. And you pay that energy and such technique may be just your needed style. You guys that try to pull/push the mt bike in every conceivable direction like you are use to doing on a mt bike because of ingrained mt biking experience and the with lack of a high powered motor you may need a very light bike to feel in that mode of bike control. We motorcyclists use the motor to drive the attack angles and because of this carefully directed power we do not have to try to pull/push the bike in every conceivable direction. When you ride with this strategy and have such dirt bike skills it is best to have the battery low on the bike between the wheels. Enough?

Go out on your ebike and try some of these other vehicle suited rides that beat you ass into the ground, especially if you come with a human powered bike and you expect to ride each hill/or other challenge until you make it.

Learn to drive the attack angle with the motor and forget about trying to be everywhere on the frame.

Robocam- I just want a little assist, and the quietness of the BBSHD is attractive. Is the BBSHD as quiet as they say it

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Robocam since when is this thread about you and what you want? didn't you read the start of this thread and the opp said the BBSHD is underpowered ?

The BBSHD maybe quiet but like the other bafang products it will be cheap and nasty.. quieter for only a few hundred km until the next failure major parts failure make sit noisy and needing a major overhaul lol

Unread postby ginekolog

1. Small metal pinion gear was made of peanutbutter steel - it got deformed after 2000 km. Dealer replaced it, no problems since.
2. At 2500 km motor shaft o-ring fell of shaft, shaft wore down to 7,94 mm (should be 8mm). Grinding sound was produced. I took unit apart, put blue loctitet 248 on shaf and it works well since.
3. At 2700 km big metal gear tightend to clutch with 5 M4 screws. They untigtened from vibrations, i heard grinding sound. . I retightened them with loctite 248 (but i did no degrease, this might have been mistake). Was good for 1000 km, then again i had to retighten, but one screw was broken - it snapped. I retightened with 4 screws, used load of loctite 248 (again no degrease). Grinding came back after 500 km, now 3 screws were broken.

I was looking for solution. I knew it was near impossible to remove snaped screws, so I decided to drill M5 holes. Material is very hard, I broke 3 drills. I managed to drill trough and made new M5 treads. This time I didn't use locitet but bullet proof method: making dent on screws. See pics. I am sure I fixed this issue for good.

I think this is very bad design from Bafang. They should use longer M5 screws + use loctite in factory. I hope this post helps fellow e-bikers in case of similar problems

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I'm glad you've finally explained your stance. It would have made it much clearer had you mentioned this earlier in the Cyclone 3000 thread.

I have a 112 cell pack right now, and I find that it is overkill for my trail rides, so I am considering a pack with fewer cells (maybe I'll start with something like 56 cells) but I have no way to install a seat tube motor. It would probably be really noisy though since it has to be so small.

I am interested in what you mean by using the motor to drive attack angles. Could you give an example of how one might use this technique?

DingusMcGee said:

...In Mt biking the rider tries to pull/push the bike in every conceivable direction to get the human [ low] powered gadget around and/or over obstacles. And the bike is usually quite easy to carry. Powerful trail riding ebikes on the other hand are the transition to motorcycles [dirt bikes] in power and the way we handle them. I suppose that Robo in his quest for ultimate light weight ebike may have a battery of 20 Samsung 25R cells and a seat tube motor?

As for liking to carry the battery in a backpack, I will stick with the physics that the rotational inertia of the battery in a backpack is many times higher than the same battery configured to fit very low and between the wheels. And you pay that energy and such technique may be just your needed style. You guys that try to pull/push the mt bike in every conceivable direction like you are use to doing on a mt bike because of ingrained mt biking experience and the with lack of a high powered motor you may need a very light bike to feel in that mode of bike control. We motorcyclists use the motor to drive the attack angles and because of this carefully directed power we do not have to try to pull/push the bike in every conceivable direction. When you ride with this strategy and have such dirt bike skills it is best to have the battery low on the bike between the wheels. Enough?

Go out on your ebike and try some of these other vehicle suited rides that beat you ass into the ground, especially if you come with a human powered bike and you expect to ride each hill/or other challenge until you make it.

Learn to drive the attack angle with the motor and forget about trying to be everywhere on the frame.

Click to expand...

Robo wrote:

Could you give an example of how one might use this technique?

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Really? There is a big fundamental difference between steep uphill riding techniques of Mt bikers and e-dirt bikes that have an adequate motor to propel the rider's big arse uphill.

For steep hill climbing while Mt biking[? does it even exist?] the standing rider tries for such a [standing] position where he still gets traction but he needs all the pedal force he can muster. A little bit of wheel spinning and you are out of momentum.

The steep hill technique for e-dirt bikes is obviously to use the motor for all it can do to attain the local summit. We are not standing [upright] on these steep hills but trying our best to keep the front end down yet maintain enough weight on the rear to get meaningful progress even though the rear wheel is spinning and slipping. It would be hopeless to try and pedal in this far body forward down position towards the handle bars. Our attack angle is how we position/reposition ourselves along the top tube to maintain enough traction to keep some speed up,yet avoid at all costs getting pitched over backwards. We also modulate this tipping tendency with our throttle. I do have a very soft-start throttle response, not jerky.

It seems these e-dirt-bikes excel over Mt biking in the hill climbing but on a down hill run just about any modern downhill bike/ mt biker can do just as good as a motorized unit.

Nothing of the likes of this kind of corrective motion is used for Mt bike riding when hill climbing. One look at dirt bikes will tell you they use the banana seat at forward position [compared to the vintage banana seat/sissy bar setup] and do not have the rear of the seat hooked to the [no] sissy bar. I am working on a banana seat for my e-dirt-bike so as when the going gets really rough I can sit/slide on the seat while pulling/holding myself far forward and use my legs as intermittent stabilizers kind of like ski poles. You may appreciate this technique in uphill narrow trough riding when the the troughs contain fixed cobble and rocks along with a lot loose gravel. This kind of terrain is hopelessly impossible for Mt bike riders to ride even though it may not be very steep. This technique is not about eloquence of riding but is the way to get your arse up the trough using the motor.

Now can you image a dirt bike rider adding weight to his body via a [112 cell] backpack to get better handling ability? Hogwash --- the battery is best fixed down low to add equally to keeping traction and keeping the bike front end down.