Mini Cyclone on carbon full suspension

DingusMcGee said:
For steep hill climbing while Mt biking[? does it even exist?] the standing rider tries for such a [standing] position where he still gets traction but he needs all the pedal force he can muster. A little bit of wheel spinning and you are out of momentum.
Click to expand...

On the really steep stuff, as soon as I come out of the saddle, it's all over. You can't maintain as smooth of a cadence as when you are seated, so you break traction when you start pumping your legs. I find the best technique for MTB is butt on the saddle slide forward as necessary, lean over the front bars to keep the front end down and loaded so that your steering still has some effect.
 
Elementary how is that fatbike C3000w going awesome build

is it only single track or can you ride on more dirt bike type offroad terrain ? the C3000w would seem to have enough torque as a mid. but does it have enough grip.
 
I now have three Cyclone 3000w fatties and they offer such a significant performance improvement over BBS-HD machines that I mostly ride are Cyclones. There is plenty of snow here and the Cyclone 3000w linked to Vee Rubber STUDDED SNO TIRES tires have shown amazing capabilities plowing though knee deep snow.
*I can recommend the nickel plate 1/2 link primary chain as it runs quieter than full link chains and appears to be more rust resistant.
* In addition, the KMC chain with the rust resistant coating KMC is promoting is holding much much better than normal chain would in the wet and snowy conditions
* I has proven necessary to install a larger 203mm real disc brake to give the added stopping power and the ability to abruptly lock up the rear wheel for skidding thru corners
* The single best improvement was swapping the brake controllers so the left hand controlled the rear brake... this allows much better and quicker throttle controller
* I am using a Luna twist throttles from BBS-HD that are modified for zero free play... this lets the motor spin a little while moving and eliminates some of the drive line shock

snow4sm.jpg snow5sm.jpg
 
I now have three Cyclone 3000w fatties and they offer such a significant performance improvement over BBS-HD machines that I mostly ride are Cyclones
Click to expand...

Yeah i have heard many people say the same thing the BBSHD is wimpy compared to the C3000w, Are you considering running your C3000w with more power at 72v like others have done ?
 
Ecarbon now with CA3...
YouTube Video shows a short trail ride... Max speed 21mph, avg speed 12mph, 40amps with 20 hobbyking 10ahr lipo...
Bike now easier to ride in the woods when CA3 throttle is set to .25 volts per second https://youtu.be/ggfEeStGSRM
 
Which carbon frame did you use ? That looks like a generic full suspension on Ebay going for $899.
Fat bike full suspension frame is crazily expensive for some weird reasons over mtn bike.
 
My frames are XM Carbon... I have two with cyclone 3000w running 20 cells which is 84 volts fully charged. At that voltage they were hard to control on tight trails but the CA3 helps... But at 52v 14s they are easy to control
Hobbyking lipo's can easily provide 60 amps continuous..http://www.xmcarbonspeed.com/Productinfo.asp?f=1402 I
 
If you dont mind, how much did you get them for ?
 
why all the hate on cyclone motors i have done over 70,000 miles with cyclone motors over the last 10 years only killed 1 motor by cracking the case on a rock never burned one out very few over heat problems and no over heat problems since i rewound it and added better bearings cyclone motors are awesome if you use the right gear and dont push them over what they can take 25mph is not a problem for a 1680w kit go over that with a standard kit and you will start to have issues rewind and add better bearings and 2000w /30mph is not a problem what people need to realize is that these motors are only really a 1000w motor without mods
 
zackclark70 said:
why all the hate on cyclone motors i have done over 70,000 miles with cyclone motors over the last 10 years only killed 1 motor by cracking the case on a rock never burned one out very few over heat problems and no over heat problems since i rewound it and added better bearings cyclone motors are awesome if you use the right gear and dont push them over what they can take 25mph is not a problem for a 1680w kit go over that with a standard kit and you will start to have issues rewind and add better bearings and 2000w /30mph is not a problem what people need to realize is that these motors are only really a 1000w motor without mods
Click to expand...

Noisey, overheating, poor bearings, the list goes on.......
 
recumpence said:
zackclark70 said:
why all the hate on cyclone motors i have done over 70,000 miles with cyclone motors over the last 10 years only killed 1 motor by cracking the case on a rock never burned one out very few over heat problems and no over heat problems since i rewound it and added better bearings cyclone motors are awesome if you use the right gear and dont push them over what they can take 25mph is not a problem for a 1680w kit go over that with a standard kit and you will start to have issues rewind and add better bearings and 2000w /30mph is not a problem what people need to realize is that these motors are only really a 1000w motor without mods
Click to expand...

Noisey, overheating, poor bearings, the list goes on.......
Click to expand...

overheating is mostly people running them in the wrong rpm range with high phase amps
ok bearings are fairly cheap
noise can be toned down alot ( new bearings stop the gears wearing out so fast and keep the noise down for longer )

the problems most people have are because they are running the motors in a way that is not optimal they are really good motors if you treat them right hub motors will always be quiet compared to any chain drive but they have so many downsides it makes them the worse choice really
 
zackclark70 said:
recumpence said:
zackclark70 said:
why all the hate on cyclone motors i have done over 70,000 miles with cyclone motors over the last 10 years only killed 1 motor by cracking the case on a rock never burned one out very few over heat problems and no over heat problems since i rewound it and added better bearings cyclone motors are awesome if you use the right gear and dont push them over what they can take 25mph is not a problem for a 1680w kit go over that with a standard kit and you will start to have issues rewind and add better bearings and 2000w /30mph is not a problem what people need to realize is that these motors are only really a 1000w motor without mods
Click to expand...

Noisey, overheating, poor bearings, the list goes on.......
Click to expand...

overheating is mostly people running them in the wrong rpm range with high phase amps
ok bearings are fairly cheap
noise can be toned down alot ( new bearings stop the gears wearing out so fast and keep the noise down for longer )

the problems most people have are because they are running the motors in a way that is not optimal they are really good motors if you treat them right hub motors will always be quiet compared to any chain drive but they have so many downsides it makes them the worse choice really
Click to expand...

I never promoted hub motors. I agree, hub motors are a poor choice.
 
recumpence said:
zackclark70 said:
recumpence said:
zackclark70 said:
why all the hate on cyclone motors i have done over 70,000 miles with cyclone motors over the last 10 years only killed 1 motor by cracking the case on a rock never burned one out very few over heat problems and no over heat problems since i rewound it and added better bearings cyclone motors are awesome if you use the right gear and dont push them over what they can take 25mph is not a problem for a 1680w kit go over that with a standard kit and you will start to have issues rewind and add better bearings and 2000w /30mph is not a problem what people need to realize is that these motors are only really a 1000w motor without mods
Click to expand...

Noisey, overheating, poor bearings, the list goes on.......
Click to expand...

overheating is mostly people running them in the wrong rpm range with high phase amps
ok bearings are fairly cheap
noise can be toned down alot ( new bearings stop the gears wearing out so fast and keep the noise down for longer )

the problems most people have are because they are running the motors in a way that is not optimal they are really good motors if you treat them right hub motors will always be quiet compared to any chain drive but they have so many downsides it makes them the worse choice really
Click to expand...

I never promoted hub motors. I agree, hub motors are a poor choice.
Click to expand...

if we all had the money we would probably be running some kind of belt driven rc setup but unfortunately money is a consideration for most people so we weigh up the pros and cons of all the options in our price range and pick what we think will be best for out needs

my long term goal is to build a mid drive motor from the ground up as nobody has made a motor just for ebikes
 
:?: Elementary,

Having built 15 eBikes, I'm hoping you've encountered (and hopefully solved) a problem I'm having:

I'm trying to mount the Cyclone kit on this bike:
https://www.scott-sports.com/us/en/products/249549008/SCOTT-Spark-960-Bike

...which has this BB:
Shimano BB-MT500-PA / shell 41x89.5mm

This is my first build.

I believe I need to find a Threaded PF41 to BSA adapter to mount the LunaCycle Cyclone 3000 kit (https://lunacycle.com/cyclone-mid-drive-3000-watt-planetary-kit/), but I have been unable to find / recognize such an adapter.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!!

Franko

elementary said:
Having built 15 ebikes over 5 years...

Older pictures of the 3000 bracket and eCarbon

View attachment 1

Click to expand...
 
Do you already have this bike? I would find a bike with a different bottom bracket if you don't already own it.

I ran into a similar issue when I was trying to mount a mid drive onto my Trek HiFi Pro 29 which has a similar bottom bracket. What I did was I bought an FSA BB30 to BSA adapter, removed 1mm from the outer diameter (rotary tool with a tungsten carbide tip, Dremel 9901 - I mounted the adapter to a bottom bracket spindle and spun it around until the rotary tool shaved the adapter to 41mm), shaved the bottom bracket shell until it was 68mm wide (with a rotary tool and a cutoff wheel), and then pressed in the adapter (with a hammer).

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=84034&p=1230611#p1230611

file.php


Here's the adapter I used.

https://www.amazon.com/FSA-BB30-to-BSA-Adapter/dp/B004N99NG6

As you can see, BB30 is 42mm while BB92 is 41mm, so that's why 1mm has to be removed from the adapter.

Kogel-bottom-bracket-chart.jpg


fcbrants said:
...I'm trying to mount the Cyclone kit on this bike:
https://www.scott-sports.com/us/en/products/249549008/SCOTT-Spark-960-Bike

...which has this BB:
Shimano BB-MT500-PA / shell 41x89.5mm...
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Robocam!!

Yes, I already purchased the bike - did a cursory search for PF41 to BSA adapters Before I bought the bike & Thought there were tons of choices, so Thought it was Ok to get the bike.

Still keeping the bike (bought it local & had the option to return it), as I have another Scott Spark 940 with a BSA BB, so I knew I had options, plus I Really like the (patented) Scott Twin Lock system (locks front & rear suspensions with a remote, so "on the fly"), as my goal for this build was to try to maintain the best "pedal power" features possible, while adding power.

Thank you SO much for your help, I have been puzzling over this question for Hours & Hours!!

Cheers!

Franko



robocam said:
Do you already have this bike? I would find a bike with a different bottom bracket if you don't already own it.

I ran into a similar issue when I was trying to mount a mid drive onto my Trek HiFi Pro 29 which has a similar bottom bracket. What I did was I bought an FSA BB30 to BSA adapter, removed 1mm from the outer diameter (rotary tool with a tungsten carbide tip, Dremel 9901 - I mounted the adapter to a bottom bracket spindle and spun it around until the rotary tool shaved the adapter to 41mm), shaved the bottom bracket shell until it was 68mm wide (with a rotary tool and a cutoff wheel), and then pressed in the adapter (with a hammer).

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=84034&p=1230611#p1230611

file.php


Here's the adapter I used.

https://www.amazon.com/FSA-BB30-to-BSA-Adapter/dp/B004N99NG6

As you can see, BB30 is 42mm while BB92 is 41mm, so that's why 1mm has to be removed from the adapter.

Kogel-bottom-bracket-chart.jpg


fcbrants said:
...I'm trying to mount the Cyclone kit on this bike:
https://www.scott-sports.com/us/en/products/249549008/SCOTT-Spark-960-Bike

...which has this BB:
Shimano BB-MT500-PA / shell 41x89.5mm...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
You're welcome! Keep in mind that if you modify the bottom bracket shell, it may weaken that area depending on your bike's bottom bracket shell design. It sounds like you still want to ride it like a bike. If that's the case, you really should consider the BBSHD, especially since it might fit your frame without modifications. The Cyclone is crazy powerful, so you may not not want to pedal. The BBSHD also has a nice PAS system. I have lockouts on my shocks too, but I don't see any point in using them with a motor.

fcbrants said:
Thanks Robocam!!

Yes, I already purchased the bike - did a cursory search for PF41 to BSA adapters Before I bought the bike & Thought there were tons of choices, so Thought it was Ok to get the bike.

Still keeping the bike (bought it local & had the option to return it), as I have another Scott Spark 940 with a BSA BB, so I knew I had options, plus I Really like the (patented) Scott Twin Lock system (locks front & rear suspensions with a remote, so "on the fly"), as my goal for this build was to try to maintain the best "pedal power" features possible, while adding power.

Thank you SO much for your help, I have been puzzling over this question for Hours & Hours!!

Cheers!

Franko



robocam said:
Do you already have this bike? I would find a bike with a different bottom bracket if you don't already own it.

I ran into a similar issue when I was trying to mount a mid drive onto my Trek HiFi Pro 29 which has a similar bottom bracket. What I did was I bought an FSA BB30 to BSA adapter, removed 1mm from the outer diameter (rotary tool with a tungsten carbide tip, Dremel 9901 - I mounted the adapter to a bottom bracket spindle and spun it around until the rotary tool shaved the adapter to 41mm), shaved the bottom bracket shell until it was 68mm wide (with a rotary tool and a cutoff wheel), and then pressed in the adapter (with a hammer).

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=84034&p=1230611#p1230611

file.php


Here's the adapter I used.

https://www.amazon.com/FSA-BB30-to-BSA-Adapter/dp/B004N99NG6

As you can see, BB30 is 42mm while BB92 is 41mm, so that's why 1mm has to be removed from the adapter.

Kogel-bottom-bracket-chart.jpg


fcbrants said:
...I'm trying to mount the Cyclone kit on this bike:
https://www.scott-sports.com/us/en/products/249549008/SCOTT-Spark-960-Bike

...which has this BB:
Shimano BB-MT500-PA / shell 41x89.5mm...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the heads up about the BB shell, my plan is to leave it "as stock as possible."

I looked long & hard at the BBSHD, but didn't like some of the features (integrated controller) and was advised by Paxtana on the LunaCycle Electric Bike forum that keeping multiple front chain rings would be a battle and a kludge, with no front derailleur possible:

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/builds/custom-builds/37584-bbshd-on-scott-spark-960-bb-shimano-bb-mt500-pa-shell-41x89-5mm

I also was hoping to tune the gearing and power to be able to keep up with city traffic if I start using the bike for alternate transportation.

I live in a hilly area, so while pedaling (mostly for health benefits) uphill, I always lock the suspension to keep if from absorbing pedaling energy, then lock it right away for the downhill bits to soften the ride, so I use the remote constantly.

Thanks again for your help!!

Franko

robocam said:
You're welcome! Keep in mind that if you modify the bottom bracket shell, it may weaken that area depending on your bike's bottom bracket shell design. It sounds like you still want to ride it like a bike. If that's the case, you really should consider the BBSHD, especially since it might fit your frame without modifications. The Cyclone is crazy powerful, so you may not not want to pedal. The BBSHD also has a nice PAS system. I have lockouts on my shocks too, but I don't see any point in using them with a motor.
Click to expand...
 
What's wrong with an integrated controller? The advantage is that it doesn't take up space on your bike. It's replaceable.

There's really no need to run multiple chainrings. In fact, a 1x setup with a narrow-wide chainring will be much better for chain retention (for any mid drive). With a 42T chainring and the motor, you can climb anything you want to. You can even add a 50T cog to the rear if you need to. Top gear will take you to about 35mph.

But there is one benefit to the Cyclone. It will give you more ground clearance.

If you don't want to cut your frame, you can use one of these adapters with a fat bike bottom bracket. But you'll likely have chainline issues that you will need to correct by moving the chainrings around using spacers.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/J-L-BB92-BB86-BSA-Bottom-Bracket-Conversion-Adapter-Convertor-/301825746922

I've posted a question for you over here in the Cyclone thread to see if anyone can help.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&p=1302505#p1302505

As you transition to ebiking, I doubt you'll use your suspension lock anymore =)

fcbrants said:
Thanks for the heads up about the BB shell, my plan is to leave it "as stock as possible."

I looked long & hard at the BBSHD, but didn't like some of the features (integrated controller) and was advised by Paxtana on the LunaCycle Electric Bike forum that keeping multiple front chain rings would be a battle and a kludge, with no front derailleur possible:

https://electricbike.com/forum/forum/builds/custom-builds/37584-bbshd-on-scott-spark-960-bb-shimano-bb-mt500-pa-shell-41x89-5mm

I also was hoping to tune the gearing and power to be able to keep up with city traffic if I start using the bike for alternate transportation.

I live in a hilly area, so while pedaling (mostly for health benefits) uphill, I always lock the suspension to keep if from absorbing pedaling energy, then lock it right away for the downhill bits to soften the ride, so I use the remote constantly.

Thanks again for your help!!

Franko

robocam said:
You're welcome! Keep in mind that if you modify the bottom bracket shell, it may weaken that area depending on your bike's bottom bracket shell design. It sounds like you still want to ride it like a bike. If that's the case, you really should consider the BBSHD, especially since it might fit your frame without modifications. The Cyclone is crazy powerful, so you may not not want to pedal. The BBSHD also has a nice PAS system. I have lockouts on my shocks too, but I don't see any point in using them with a motor.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Robocam - I did not realize the controller is replaceable.

Great info about the chainline - I was reading that it could be an issue, so I was thinking about staying with a single front chain ring.

As for ground clearance, I believe that I can cut new motor mounts & get the Cyclone up into the triangle.

And thanks for the link on the adapter, I bought one earlier today.

Lastly, thanks for posting my questions over to the Cyclone thread. I considered posting it there, but at 86 pages, I was pretty sure my question would get lost. Started my own thread, but didn't get a response.

Thanks!!

Franko

robocam said:
What's wrong with an integrated controller? The advantage is that it doesn't take up space on your bike. It's replaceable.

There's really no need to run multiple chainrings. In fact, a 1x setup with a narrow-wide chainring will be much better for chain retention (for any mid drive). With a 42T chainring and the motor, you can climb anything you want to. You can even add a 50T cog to the rear if you need to. Top gear will take you to about 35mph.

But there is one benefit to the Cyclone. It will give you more ground clearance.

If you don't want to cut your frame, you can use one of these adapters with a fat bike bottom bracket. But you'll likely have chainline issues that you will need to correct by moving the chainrings around using spacers.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/J-L-BB92-BB86-BSA-Bottom-Bracket-Conversion-Adapter-Convertor-/301825746922

I've posted a question for you over here in the Cyclone thread to see if anyone can help.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&p=1302505#p1302505

As you transition to ebiking, I doubt you'll use your suspension lock anymore =)
Click to expand...
 
I believe I have this problem solved.

I contacted my local bike (machine) shop:

https://www.velogold.org/

...and they're fabricating the PF41 / PF92 / PF89.5 to BSA adapter for me.

If that goes well, then we'll move on to the custom mounting brackets that will put the Cyclone inside the triangle.

Cheers!!

Franko


fcbrants said:
:?:

I believe I need to find a Threaded PF41 to BSA adapter to mount the LunaCycle Cyclone 3000 kit (https://lunacycle.com/cyclone-mid-drive-3000-watt-planetary-kit/), but I have been unable to find / recognize such an adapter.
Click to expand...
 
zackclark70 said:
why all the hate on cyclone motors i have done over 70,000 miles with cyclone motors over the last 10 years only killed 1 motor by cracking the case on a rock never burned one out very few over heat problems and no over heat problems since i rewound it and added better bearings cyclone motors are awesome if you use the right gear and dont push them over what they can take 25mph is not a problem for a 1680w kit go over that with a standard kit and you will start to have issues rewind and add better bearings and 2000w /30mph is not a problem what people need to realize is that these motors are only really a 1000w motor without mods
Click to expand...

Very nice!

I wonder the same, why so much hate on Cyclone?? They make eBikes affordable without breaking the bank with gimmicky stuff that you really, don't need.... 70k miles man! Kudos to you!

I am now at 12k miles combined (in about 1 1/2 years) on x3 Cyclone 3000W motors, two with shunt-modded controllers (90A max @ 72V), even have done a fair share of 0-60 mph runs and gone through a couple of Wisconsin winters...

I agree, it can all be improved, better mount, better bearings, better windings, etc... but for 350-400 dollars shipped to your door, a bolt and run package that just works its hard to beat... sure is not stealth, it might be noisy (although all of mine did quiet down after a few thousand miles)

G.
 
any updates? more i read the more i read this seems ultimate mid drive build ! No surprise since you did 15 other builds before so i think you figured it out what is Ultimate more than anyone else on here :)
 
elementary said:
I now have three Cyclone 3000w fatties and they offer such a significant performance improvement over BBS-HD machines that I mostly ride are Cyclones. There is plenty of snow here and the Cyclone 3000w linked to Vee Rubber STUDDED SNO TIRES tires have shown amazing capabilities plowing though knee deep snow.
*I can recommend the nickel plate 1/2 link primary chain as it runs quieter than full link chains and appears to be more rust resistant.
* In addition, the KMC chain with the rust resistant coating KMC is promoting is holding much much better than normal chain would in the wet and snowy conditions
* I has proven necessary to install a larger 203mm real disc brake to give the added stopping power and the ability to abruptly lock up the rear wheel for skidding thru corners
* The single best improvement was swapping the brake controllers so the left hand controlled the rear brake... this allows much better and quicker throttle controller
* I am using a Luna twist throttles from BBS-HD that are modified for zero free play... this lets the motor spin a little while moving and eliminates some of the drive line shock

View attachment 1
Click to expand...

Hi do you have a link to that rust coated KMC chain? Thx
 
elementary said:
The Cyclone 3000w is NOT silent and stealthy like the BBS-HD, but it has a lot more torque... More torque than needed in the woods using 14s 16000Mahr HobbyKing Lipo 52v nomial 58.v8 charged. The highest the stock Cyclone 3000w controller pulled was 58.4 volts at 39.2 Amps.... without any modification to the shunts.

Bottomline, the BBS-HD Sniper will be ridden more because it is easier in the tight trails, but if a challenge is need the Cyclone 3000 can deliver.

Example, the fastest ride a 4" hardtail BBS-HD fattie with Bluto fork was a 8 mph average over set woods course, if pushed the BBS-HD Sniper full suspension can average about 9 - 10mph. Pushing the eCarbon full suspension with a Cyclone 3000w averaged 13 mph over the same course... something too dangerous to do again. The ride is something like an old Honda 125cc Ensenada motocross bike and a 72v Cyclone 3000w maybe impossible to ride in the woods. Never tried the Cyclone 1680w because it overheats, nor the Tangent for other reasons

Older pictures of the 3000 bracket and eCarbon

cyclone1sm.jpg

3000bracketsm.jpg
Click to expand...
-Elsinore**
 
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