Q100CST and Top Speed

So I've setup everything and I am impressed. It's a small motor and quite powerful. However I have setup my LCD KT-LCD8H to 700C and the top speed on the throttle seems to be 17mph. Looking on the forums it should be about 18mph on 36V and 20-22mph on 48V. I am running a 48V battery and it shows 54V.

36V/48V 350W 6Mosfets 17A Brushless DC Sine Wave Controller from PSWpower

I have not actually put the motor in a rim yet, just the bare motor. So is the speed slower because it doesn't have the rotational mass? Or have I setup something incorrectly?

The display setting limit shows 72km/h, about 44mph so I'm sure i Must have done something wrong. I've played around with it using the throttle and it goes over 17mph up to 20 and then drops down to 17 as if it's limited somehow. I have disconnected the white "speed limited wire" but it makes no difference...

Ltc433 said:

So I've setup everything and I am impressed. It's a small motor and quite powerful. However I have setup my LCD KT-LCD8H to 700C and the top speed on the throttle seems to be 17mph. Looking on the forums it should be about 18mph on 36V and 20-22mph on 48V. I am running a 48V battery and it shows 54V.

36V/48V 350W 6Mosfets 17A Brushless DC Sine Wave Controller from PSWpower

I have not actually put the motor in a rim yet, just the bare motor. So is the speed slower because it doesn't have the rotational mass? Or have I setup something incorrectly?

The display setting limit shows 72km/h, about 44mph so I'm sure i Must have done something wrong. I've played around with it using the throttle and it goes over 17mph up to 20 and then drops down to 17 as if it's limited somehow. I have disconnected the white "speed limited wire" but it makes no difference...

Click to expand...

What's your P1 and P2 setting?

Here are the settings

LIM:72 Km/h, DIM:700C, Unit:1
P1:87, P2:1, P3:1, P4:0, P5:12
C1:2, C2:0, C3:8, C4:0, C5:10, C6:3, C7:0, C8:0, C9:0, C10:N,
C11:0, C12:4,C13:0, C14:2,
L1:0 , L2:0, L3:1, L4:5

Ltc433 said:

Here are the settings

LIM:72 Km/h, DIM:700C, Unit:1
P1:87, P2:1, P3:1, P4:0, P5:12
C1:2, C2:0, C3:8, C4:0, C5:10, C6:3, C7:0, C8:0, C9:0, C10:N,
C11:0, C12:4,C13:0, C14:2,
L1:0 , L2:0, L3:1, L4:5

Click to expand...

How did you calculate 87 for P1? (I think I came up with 227 based on motor specs I just googled)

Hi,

Thanks for the help by the way. I have not setup anything. I have no idea what P1 or P2 are as this is the first time putting together a kit. I've put together pre made kits but someone else programmed it.

So should I change these values? There is nothing in the manual saying I should change those values, just wheel size and mph/km etc

In the middle of soldering connectors on....

Ltc433 said:

Hi,

Thanks for the help by the way. I have not setup anything. I have no idea what P1 or P2 are as this is the first time putting together a kit. I've put together pre made kits but someone else programmed it.

So should I change these values? There is nothing in the manual saying I should change those values, just wheel size and mph/km etc

In the middle of soldering connectors on....

Click to expand...

The display and controller have no idea what motor you have, and those values are used to let the display know what to do with the signals to determine the speed. I would change P1 and see what speed it reads. It doesn't hurt anything to change that parameter. Once you have the bike together, you can fine tune so your speed matches a GPS.

I have Q100 CST/Aikema 100CST at 201 RPM with the 36V/48V 350W 6Mosfets 17A Brushless DC Sine Wave Controller with the KT LCD8H.

I also have a cycle computer on it anyway so they should match up? How did you come up with 227?

Just found this: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=97237

Ltc433 said:

I have Q100 CST/Aikema 100CST at 201 RPM with the 36V/48V 350W 6Mosfets 17A Brushless DC Sine Wave Controller with the KT LCD8H.

I also have a cycle computer on it anyway so they should match up? How did you come up with 227?

Just found this: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=97237

Click to expand...

"P1 = motor gear reduction ratio × number of rotor magnet pieces"

I googled a spec sheet that had the number of magnets and gear ratio and plugged them in.

https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32964068350.html?dp=89916348922d5bab30c877e1f9b25517&af=191415&cv=47843&afref=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252F&mall_affr=pr3&dp=89916348922d5bab30c877e1f9b25517&af=191415&cv=47843&afref=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.google.com%252F&mall_affr=pr3&aff_platform=aaf&cpt=1572634672327&sk=VnYZvQVf&aff_trace_key=cf222adb2a0543e7a4d8cffbe2a533b5-1572634672327-06279-VnYZvQVf&terminal_id=db94e8538e834ae4a65dd567e979d94c

I had a 201 q 100 cst , in a 700c wheel with 25mm road tire and in the real world ... on flat ground , with no head wind , and with a fully charged 52 volt pack ( 14s ) that was close to 58.8 volts fully charged.
I could only get between 20-21 mph and rarely 22 mph if a little down slope.

As the battery drained down then a little under 20 mph. It is a good little motor for those speeds on a light weight bike.
I soon after a few rides went back to the Mac motor because I live in an area where the really fit roadies ride over 22 mph without a motor on up into the upper 20 mph range , once I clocked them over 30 mph when they were in a Pace Line , with the Q 100 cst I just could not keep up with them.

I keep meaning to put it up for sale , in case anyone in the San Francisco Bay area wants to buy it .

I'm not really interested in speed, more distance really. as its on a road bike. However I am thinking of changing my other motor to a mac motor, which one did you use? Once I get the wheel built Ill do some real world tests and update.

I also have a 1000W motor on an MTB which easily hits 23-39mph but it kills the range and it is very very heavy. Hence the interest in the mac motor.

Just found this:

http://www.topbikekit.com/akm100cst-cassette-36v250w-ebike-rear-driving-hub-motor-20283236-holes-p-728.html

In the motor description.
"If you use KT display, please set P1=227"

just tested this. 700C wheel, p1=87 top speed is 17mph, p1=227 top speed is 27mph It definitely adjusted the power and it doesn't sag off and reduce speed now so it was the incorrect P1 setting.I'll calibrate it later once the wheel is laced.

Ltc433 said:

Just found this:

http://www.topbikekit.com/akm100cst-cassette-36v250w-ebike-rear-driving-hub-motor-20283236-holes-p-728.html

In the motor description.
"If you use KT display, please set P1=227"

just tested this. 700C wheel, p1=87 top speed is 17mph, p1=227 top speed is 27mph It definitely adjusted the power and it doesn't sag off and reduce speed now so it was the incorrect P1 setting.I'll calibrate it later once the wheel is laced.

Click to expand...

Math wins!!!

The Mac motor I had is the one in my sig . It was a 6t rear mac , screw on style freewheel of 8 speed cog by sunrace I believe .
However
I would not put a Mac on a light weight road bike , only on a light weight or other weight MTB as it is 9.5 lbs for just the motor before spokes and rim and freewheel/cogs.

I loved the Mac since I could run it at different voltages by just entering set up on the Cycle Analyst for each battery pack . ( Lipo's )
I could cruse on the flats , at 350-450 watts or when going up hills up to . 1200 watts for short up hill climbing .

It did not like steep hills, but for that matter a DD rear hub that I have now does not like it either , the DD does take a few minutes longer to bog down and heat up .

Ltc433 said:

I'm not really interested in speed, more distance really. as its on a road bike. However I am thinking of changing my other motor to a mac motor, which one did you use?

Click to expand...

Math always Wins

Thats the thing , i have a 1000W rear hub I use at about 250-500W on an MTB and was thinking of replacing it with a mac motor as the DD is so heavy (6kg vs 4kg MAC) and doesn't appear to have much torque or be power efficient. I thought on the road a geared hub would be much better than the DD. I find the DD has low torque but I can get 21mph easily on the 250w, 23 on 350W etc. Why did you change?

ScooterMan101 said:

I had a 201 q 100 cst , in a 700c wheel with 25mm road tire and in the real world ... on flat ground , with no head wind , and with a fully charged 52 volt pack ( 14s ) that was close to 58.8 volts fully charged.
I could only get between 20-21 mph and rarely 22 mph if a little down slope.

As the battery drained down then a little under 20 mph. It is a good little motor for those speeds on a light weight bike.
I soon after a few rides went back to the Mac motor because I live in an area where the really fit roadies ride over 22 mph without a motor on up into the upper 20 mph range , once I clocked them over 30 mph when they were in a Pace Line , with the Q 100 cst I just could not keep up with them.

I keep meaning to put it up for sale , in case anyone in the San Francisco Bay area wants to buy it .

Click to expand...

That's what I get w/ my 201 Q100C in 26" whl.s (26 X 2.1 tires) on 55 Volts (nom. LiPoly). Low twenties, just fast enough to be entertaining/feel like you are getting somewhere.

Why did I change ?

You will have to be more specific , change from the little Q100cst , or change from the Mac , ?

( I am now using two bikes , one with a rear DD , which is not much different from the mac except it can go a
little further up a hill before stalling , and now a Cyclone 3k which I like the best , even though it cut out today after 6 miles of going up a very long and steep mountain , Thermal Rollback ? I do not know it was a long and very steep mountain small road , after coasting down the mountain for a couple of miles and changing battery packs , lipo , the bike ran again to make it back home ) It is however , louder in noise than the Mac or a DD Hub .


If you live in a flat area of the world then the less weight of the Mac is good. And the newer ones have a thermal rollback action when combined with infineon clone controller and the Cycle Analyst 3.x display.

Ltc433 said:

Math always Wins

Thats the thing , i have a 1000W rear hub I use at about 250-500W on an MTB and was thinking of replacing it with a mac motor as the DD is so heavy (6kg vs 4kg MAC) and doesn't appear to have much torque or be power efficient. I thought on the road a geared hub would be much better than the DD. I find the DD has low torque but I can get 21mph easily on the 250w, 23 on 350W etc. Why did you change?

Click to expand...

Motomech is back on the forum .

I just looked it up , 700xc x 25mm is almost exactly the same OD as 26" x 2.1" , and yea starting at 20 mph I also start to feel like I am finally starting to get somewhere , 25 + is getting into the fun zone .

BTW ... Donde diablos esta Punta Cana , Mexico ?

motomech said:

That's what I get w/ my 201 Q100C in 26" whl.s (26 X 2.1 tires) on 55 Volts (nom. LiPoly). Low twenties, just fast enough to be entertaining/feel like you are getting somewhere.

Click to expand...

ScooterMan101 said:

Why did I change ?

You will have to be more specific , change from the little Q100cst , or change from the Mac , ?

( I am now using two bikes , one with a rear DD , which is not much different from the mac except it can go a
little further up a hill before stalling , and now a Cyclone 3k which I like the best , even though it cut out today after 6 miles of going up a very long and steep mountain , Thermal Rollback ? I do not know it was a long and very steep mountain small road , after coasting down the mountain for a couple of miles and changing battery packs , lipo , the bike ran again to make it back home ) It is however , louder in noise than the Mac or a DD Hub .


If you live in a flat area of the world then the less weight of the Mac is good. And the newer ones have a thermal rollback action when combined with infineon clone controller and the Cycle Analyst 3.x display.

Ltc433 said:

Math always Wins

Thats the thing , i have a 1000W rear hub I use at about 250-500W on an MTB and was thinking of replacing it with a mac motor as the DD is so heavy (6kg vs 4kg MAC) and doesn't appear to have much torque or be power efficient. I thought on the road a geared hub would be much better than the DD. I find the DD has low torque but I can get 21mph easily on the 250w, 23 on 350W etc. Why did you change?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Sorry I meant from the Mac to the Direct Drive. What are your thoughts on the Q100C vs the mac? I am thinking i may just get another Q100C rather than a Mac as the mac is heavier however the Q100C can't handle much torque? I need to haul things sometimes on the MTB.

E-Bikes are my Hobby , so by default I want to try the different motors . besides always working on things is a addiction I have .
Oh well at least it is a better addiction than Drugs or Alcohol or Gambling or Strip Clubs , but now that I am thinking about it , perhaps it is time to visit a Gentleman's Club , it has been such a long time since I was last in one

I in order to try something new I must sell a current conversion in order to pay for the next project
Then the long time and older members here on E.S. used DD hub motors . DD's are supposed to go up hills better, however I found out by now testing both that the Mac can go up short and not so steep hills , the DD only does slightly better like a little steeper and longer . But a DD will still stall on the Hills that are around me.

If you want to haul things forget about the Q100c it really is only good for light work.
A Mac or DD would be better , if hauling and going with a Mac get the 10 or 12 t one.

Ltc433 said:

Sorry I meant from the Mac to the Direct Drive. What are your thoughts on the Q100C vs the mac? I am thinking i may just get another Q100C rather than a Mac as the mac is heavier however the Q100C can't handle much torque? I need to haul things sometimes on the MTB.

Click to expand...

I really don't like the cogging on the direct drive and the weight so I was thinking of a mac 8t with upgraded gears. The hauling is only occasional. Do I need an infineon 12 Fet controller? What do you use?

Motomech is back on the forum.

BTW ... Donde diablos esta Punta Cana , Mexico ?

Click to expand...

Es 25 miles sur de ensenada, baja california

I live next to one of the few roads in Latin Amer. that has nice wide shoulders, so hopefuly I won't get mowed down when riding.
Weather is like San diego, but a little cooler.

E-Bikes are my Hobby , so by default I want to try the different motors . besides always working on things is a addiction I have .
Oh well at least it is a better addiction than Drugs or Alcohol or Gambling or Strip Clubs , but now that I am thinking about it , perhaps it is time to visit a Gentleman's Club , it has been such a long time since I was last in one

Click to expand...

My Mexican neighbors kept trying to drag me to the clubs in Ensenada, (they know the Gringo will buy the drinks), but I think I'm getting a little old for those kind of games. Or maybe after living in Costa Rica and Nicaragua for 15 years, I got a little spoiled.
I could write a book.

I had a 12 fet controller on my Mac 6T conversion . up to 48 volts and 40 amps.

I would get a 12 fet or bigger controller when using a Mac or a DD rear hub from now on.

Right now I have a infineon Clone 36-72 volt 30 amp 9fet on my DD rear hub bike and I could really use a 12 fet 40 amp or more.
Same
On my latest conversion the GNG cyclone 3k It has a lyen 9 fet that I can use up to 72 volts on but only 30 amps , It has stalled twice now trying to go up very steep and long mountains around where I live.
For
the Mounatains around me I really need a 40-60 amp controller , but I must sell off some other parts first to pay for a new/different controller, so I can not report the performance gains until that happens off in the future .

Ltc433 said:

I really don't like the cogging on the direct drive and the weight so I was thinking of a mac 8t with upgraded gears. The hauling is only occasional. Do I need an infineon 12 Fet controller? What do you use?

Click to expand...

ScooterMan101 said:

the Mounatains around me I really need a 40-60 amp controller ,

Click to expand...

So is the amount of amps the amount of power you deliver to the motor and your controller isn't powerful enough right now? I am new to this and its helping me understand why there are so many variants. I also think I have worked out why I was having problems hauling. My controller is a 36V running at 48V 14amp on a 1000w motor. It is fine on smaller hills, pulling power but its heavy. My Q100C controller goes up to 17amps. My controller is KT36ZWS-XFCF01R.

First thing, you can't think about electric motors like they are gas engines, so forget everything you know about ICE's.
In very simple terms, the motor, controller and batt. are a system and should be thought of as such.
The controller responses to the demand it "sees" from the motor, think electrical feedback.
The rating on the motor is a guideline to how much power in Watts (A X V = W) it can sustain. A crude "rule of thumb" is hub motors can do 1 1/2 to 2 times their rating in reasonable outside temps.
The controller rating equates to Max. Amps, a spike that occurs at or right after start and tapers off.
The single most important Rule of Elect. Motors is;
Never allow the climbing speed to fall below 1/2 the top speed. To use one ICE analogy, don't "lug" the motor, because around this point, the motor starts to produce more heat than locomotion.
So you are looking up a long steep hill and wondering; Is it better for me to have a high Amp controller, or one w/ a lower value?
Although it might seem counter intuitive, it's better to start out w/ the highest power your system will handle. Why? To maintain as much speed up the hill before reaching that dreaded "half speed". The "safety valve" is between your ears, knowing when to jump off and push.
Of course there are limits and a geared mini-motor, being the weakest sister, makes a good example. Mini-motors, when fed by controllers at and above 20 Amps start to experience "motor shocks" that can damage the gears. Sine wave controllers, w/ their sine wave form are "softer" in this regard than a square wave controller and in general more power can be fed w/ a sine wave. High performance square wave controllers like older Infineons and the "hot rod" Lynn's can really hammer a sm. geared motor.
The key to an efficient and non heat prone system is matching the components and expectations. In particular, whl. size, pack Voltage, MOTOR SPEED RANGE, and controller rating to achieve the desired reasonable top speed.

Thank you for a reasoned and logical explanation.

Now I understand why the 17A on my Q100C is fine. However on my DD 1000w a 14 amp controller may be too low perhaps? Its ok as I was thinking of replacing the whole system anyway as I only need occasional trailer pulling. Id much rather trade the 6kg weight of the DD for a 4kg mac or bafang hub motor. I'm just undecided on mac vs bafang etc. I think the Q100/Q128 wont be able to handle pulling a trailer at all. The mtb is a 29inch, using the same voltage 48V, i was hoping just to swap the motor out but at 14 amps the controller may not be powerful enough.