Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by j bjork » Nov 15 2019 1:58am

PITMIX wrote:
Nov 15 2019 1:51am
Vasili said potting was not irreversible for repairs
I know, I will probably dig myself in there in the winter.
Now I just want to try the controller and find out what functions there are :)

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by PITMIX » Nov 15 2019 2:01am

can you put photos of the potting?
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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by j bjork » Nov 15 2019 3:09am

Sorry, I didnt get any. And now it is mounted on the bike.
But everything is mounted exept the lid where the wires exit.
Then they just fill from that side until everything is covered, so the whole thing is like a big brick.
It is a grey silicone compound.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 15 2019 1:39pm

PITMIX wrote:
Nov 15 2019 1:51am
Vasili said potting was not irreversible for repairs
Really? I'd like to know how that is possible? Maybe some types of potting have a solvent that doesn't harm anything else? I don't know anything about potting formulas.

I have baked electronics in an oven to heat up the potting and make it crumbly, soft and therefore "removable". It was still a royal pain to get it off all the parts. The only reason I'd do this is becasue the board inside was not replaceable or costly to replace. The time involved with digging out the potting is significant. Damage to SMD components is quite possible too if you are not careful. Basically, I really HATE potting! It's just way more trouble than it's worth IMHO. It's the absolute bane of anybody that does electronic repair!

1. The controller board is already coated really well in conformal.
2. A bead of silicon calk at the joint between the shell and end plates will seal it up for total immersion if that's a concern.
3. The internal heat issue is not really a problem if the controller shell gets decent air flow around it.
4. Solder joint fatigue is easily mitigated with some thermal glue between the daughter board and large caps.

Image
Last edited by ElectricGod on Nov 15 2019 2:09pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 15 2019 2:12pm

VasiliSk wrote:
Nov 15 2019 2:04pm
our potting is repairable and removable
Cool! How?

What brand and model of potting product are you using?

Is it some kind of soft rubbery material and comes away with some minor picking like thermal glue does?
Is there a solvent that breaks it down?

I'm used to potting that is hard as epoxy or maybe slightly rubbery and doesn't come away from the components without lots of work.

If this stuff comes off easily with a solvent or minor picking, then I'm not against that sort of product. That could be a decent option.

If I knew what it is, I'd buy some just to evaluate it myself!
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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by john61ct » Nov 15 2019 2:33pm

I'd also be interested. A softer flexible compound to help absorb shock / vibration would also be great.

But relying on a solvent seems foolish to me, unknown future consequences to components.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 15 2019 2:41pm

Thinking about this a bit further...

The potting would need a solvent that slowly ate through it so it would run off or turn to goo.

If the inside of the shell were coated in oil before the board was inserted and then immersed in potting, the potting would not bond to the aluminum and yet still make good thermal contact. This would allow the "block" to slide out of the shell with some effort.

The gaps between the shell and board are pretty tight. Getting something thin in these gaps to separate the potting from the shell would be problematic at best.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by j bjork » Nov 15 2019 2:53pm

That is something that worries me too..
I haven't tried to take it out yet, but if it has sticked too much to the casing I think it will be hard.
When it is out, I think I would be able to cut with a knife and follow the other wires to the contact housings I want to reach.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by PITMIX » Nov 15 2019 3:10pm

VasiliSk wrote:
Jul 17 2019 2:39am
There is a different types of compound.. that one we are used is relatively soft and thus you still can disassemble and fix broken parts. it is a silicon compound.

Coating boards with lacquer was not enough for LMX, and even trying to seal wires output doesnt helped much, because some of those bikes getting really dirty or bein washed with high pressure water. There are still connectors inside, open for water and bunch of tiny wires. Few times board survived after drying, but that is not good for end-user, best option for them have completely sealed and don't worry at all.
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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 15 2019 3:22pm

Soft potting does exist, I've just never run across it in real life. It seems most manufacturers want to use the stuff that you can't remove easily!

These folks make potting that is soft as a pencil eraser or hard like typical epoxy sets up.

https://www.keypolymer.com/potting-encapsulating/

Note: One important aspect of potting is that it is chemical and environmentally resistant. Solvents will likely be harsh chemicals!

Googling for potting solvents...

MG Chemicals says potting will degrade with acetone. I use acetone on electronics fairly often and for many years to clean off solder flux and other gunk. I have no idea what longer term immersion in acetone would do to the electronics so you could break down the potting. Acetone evaporates quickly so you'd want to put the board in a sealed container filled with acetone.

https://www.mgchemicals.com/products/th ... cetone-434

The vast majority of the google hits recommended using heat to soften the potting.
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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by j bjork » Nov 15 2019 4:10pm

The bike is a monster with this controller :D
With 500 phase A and 250 battery A I have a hard time to hold the front wheel down :D
No reason to limit performance, I might just as well go 300A :mrgreen:

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by john61ct » Nov 15 2019 5:28pm


ElectricGod wrote:If the inside of the shell were coated in oil before the board was inserted and then immersed in potting
Or a "release agent" other than oil.

Thinking now of molding compounds, if all you care about is the dielectric insulation and physical properties.

But thermally conducting is I think also important in such heat-sensitive applications.

Most "squishy" polymer / foams are thermally insulating I believe.


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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by PITMIX » Nov 16 2019 2:05am

Hi guys, why do you want to redo what Vasili has already done. he explained everything to us, trust him.
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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by john61ct » Nov 16 2019 2:54am

PITMIX wrote:Hi guys, why do you want to redo what Vasili has already done. he explained everything to us, trust him.
Does not have to mean what you think. Tangents can be very valuable.

He did not yet link to the potting compound he's using.

These forums are about us sharing, learning teaching exploring with each other.



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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 17 2019 12:21am

john61ct wrote:
Nov 16 2019 2:54am
PITMIX wrote:Hi guys, why do you want to redo what Vasili has already done. he explained everything to us, trust him.
Does not have to mean what you think. Tangents can be very valuable.

He did not yet link to the potting compound he's using.

These forums are about us sharing, learning teaching exploring with each other.
Exactly...still want to know what potting product is used.
It's not like they invented their own proprietary potting.
It's something readily available, just want to know what it is.
I'll buy some myself and I can post my own results.
What will happen is what Vasili says in vague terms will either be corroborated or it won't.
IMHO, there's nothing to fear by being open about this product.

I'm admittedly an adamant potting hater after many years of it getting in the way of electronics repair.
I have yet to see potting in use that wasn't nearly as hard as cured JB weld. Removing it is always a giant pain.

It is my opinion that given potting options that are soft, pliable and removable that manufacturers use the hard stuff so you can't effect repairs or see their electronics work. This is good for them and bad for everybody else. It means no one can see their work...good or bad. It forces you to have to buy a new device instead of people like me being able to repair it for far less cost.

At the core, I'm always curious about everything.
A potting compound that might be serviceable makes me VERY curious!

I'm willing to change my mind, if this product is serviceable.
I'm open to being wrong...whole reason I ask what it is!
I have no need to be right.
If this stuff is really serviceable and removable, I'll just say it is.
Part of what I'd like to do is see how good it is as a thermal transfer agent.
Part of what I'd like to see is if will serve uses I have.
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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by john61ct » Nov 17 2019 7:58am

So as not to divert the thread further, and maybe attract more members, started a new "Removable potting compound" thread

viewtopic.php?t=103316

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by PITMIX » Nov 18 2019 12:59am

Hello ! I started playing with my Nuc 24F and I would like to improve the starting operation from 0 RPM on an alternator converted into a motor. There is no hall sensor, the rotor is induced and powered by 12vdc. My battery is 20s and this is a 12 pole engine.
Do you have some settings recommendations to improve the start, thank you.

I try to show that this controller is able to get the best of a bad engine, even if it will never be the equivalent of what we can get with a QS motor 138 for example.
Until now it was impossible to control a converted alternator with anything other than a small 1500w controller. I never managed to get more than 4500rpm with a Chinese controller. There the controller is able to provide 20kW Peak and the engine runs at over 6000rpm, it's amazing.
Thank you very Much.

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by VasiliSk » Nov 18 2019 2:05am

I posted it before, there is no start up routine for sensorless. WIP

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by PITMIX » Nov 18 2019 2:30am

Thank you Vasili I saw that just after sending my message. The engine runs perfectly and with incredible performance. I simply set the engine in 12-pole mode and accelerator in speed mode. Now I will test it on my Qs 138 70H

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by SlowCo » Nov 18 2019 6:55am

PITMIX wrote:
Nov 18 2019 2:30am
Thank you Vasili I saw that just after sending my message. The engine runs perfectly and with incredible performance. I simply set the engine in 12-pole mode and accelerator in speed mode. Now I will test it on my Qs 138 70H
That is a great way of showing what the Nucular is capable of! :thumb:
I wonder how much continuous power a big 24V truck/camion alternator would be able to produce when turned into a motor with the Nucular controller? 8)

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by PITMIX » Nov 18 2019 7:20am

Yes this controller is really great and it is very easy to use.
I think we can shoot 10 or 12kW but the problem is energy consumption. The yield is about 60%, and you need a light vehicle because otherwise the performance drops again. I have a consumption of 50wh/km with a vehicle of 400kg and Qs 138 engine, with the alternator is about 135wh/km !
I have already managed to shoot 7.5kW of this alternator but my old Chinese controller has grilled very quickly. I think a 6F or 12F is realy good for an alternator in a small motobike.
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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by SlowCo » Nov 18 2019 7:39am

That's great because the weight of a motor from China makes them expensive in shipping cost and import duty. But an alternator can be bought cheap from a local scrap yard.
And maybe the energy consumption of an alternator will be lower (closer to a normal motor) with the Nucular controller?

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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by ElectricGod » Nov 19 2019 5:34am

SlowCo wrote:
Nov 18 2019 7:39am
That's great because the weight of a motor from China makes them expensive in shipping cost and import duty. But an alternator can be bought cheap from a local scrap yard.
And maybe the energy consumption of an alternator will be lower (closer to a normal motor) with the Nucular controller?
While what you said is true, expect to get a few alternators to mess with. They are not all created equal. I'm assuming the armature windings are getting replaced with magnets. The whole idea is to NOT have brushes of any kind in your motor. Once you have worked out magnets on the armature, check the stator laminations. How thin are they? I've seen quite a few alternators with .5mm lams in them. This is fine for an alternator, but not for a motor. The iron losses will pile up pretty quickly.

I know an alternator can work as a BLDC motor using the armature windings and brushes that come on the alternator. It does make for a cheap motor. However, the BIG reason to run BLDC is the efficiency and torque gains over brushed motors. It varies some, but show me a brushed motor with the efficiency of the worst brushless motor.

IMHO, to use a Nucular controller to run an alternator...what a waste of a pretty good FOC controller!!!
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Re: Nucular electronics - complete kit for ev! [beta]

Post by VasiliSk » Nov 20 2019 6:26am

Hello guys!
Big update. Files on top here: http://wiki.nucular.tech/en:firmware
Don't get previous version or you may get a brick lol
I will update wiki a bit later, you can temporary use google translate with russian wiki, it is updated
You will need to reset configuration, configuration files not fully compatible since there was a lot of menu changes. Make backups and apply settings after update.

Change log:
Display:
CAN buttons setup
Inverted inputs setup
Statistics reworked
Added filters for analog inputs

Controller:
Big menu update
Control logic completely reworked for future compatibility with BMS
New default values for PIDs
DC-DC low voltage difference charge fixed
Inverted brake input added
Specific setup for 3 positional speed switch added (can work now as 1-2-3)
Button/switch select for usual speed select input
Save CRC calculation fixed
New speed mode - neutral
Speed increment and decrement added
Added t-sensor NTC 10k B:3380
Reboot command added
Fixed field weakening over 126%
Fixed VBUS measuring, now it is at PWM frequency, significantly improved overvoltage protection
Added median VBUS filter
Added averaging of N-X ADC samples filter for throttle and brake
Fixed brake glitches
Current measuring fixes for better measuring on 6F board
When enable button configured controller will not turn-on anymore when power applied
Autodetect improved, more informative, short-circuit detect added and timeout fixed
Added lock-at-turn-on, will lock throttle untill password on-screen is entered
Voltage on phases detect added, will lock controls
UVLO added
Added "Advanced modes" menu with more specific options per mode
Personal throttle protection lock for CAN source or local
Motor temperature limit for charger (DC-DC)

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