Electric Car Using All-Wheel Drive Hub Motors

[knightmb]

I won't get into the whole hub motor vs. anything else motor debate, but I thought this might interest everyone here. Yes, for the record I do own stock in the company, but I'm not here to sell the car, just show it off

http://www.zapworld.com/ZAPWorld.aspx?id=4560

[Stevil_Knevil]

.. I'm not here to sell the car, just show it off

The same goes for ZAP.

They aren't really in the business to sell anything but stock.
This is your "Heads-up!".. ZAP doesn't create anything but press releases.

Nice looking motor though. I wonder who designed it.. 'cause it sure wasn't ZAP!


Buy low, sell high Mr. Knight.

-S

[Malcolm]

The motor looks as if it comes from PML Flightlink http://www.pmlflightlink.com/motors/hipa_drive.html. This is the UK company that supplied the motors for the electric Mini Cooper http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/12050/pml-flightlink-electric-mini-cooper.html.
I see they're also developing a scooter hub motor for Peugeot.

[knightmb]

They aren't really in the business to sell anything but stock.
This is your "Heads-up!".. ZAP doesn't create anything but press releases.

Nice looking motor though. I wonder who designed it.. 'cause it sure wasn't ZAP!

Last I checked it really does exist? Dealers are already taking orders for it, so unless their other electric cars don't really exist, I'm not sure why this one would turn into vaporware?

Most of it was designed by Lotus Engineering, so I haven't had much time to check up on them and their track record.

Buy low, sell high Mr. Knight.

-S

That's the secret , not with Zaap stock though, I only bought it to get inside the company files to see what is going on in the electric car world. This has been in the works since early last year, I just couldn't say anything until now since they finally did a press release on it.

[CGameProgrammer]

ZAP's three-wheeled electric vehicles are built in China; ZAP merely advertises and sells them. I'm pretty sure they did not design them.

[Mathurin]

Heh, the old Peugeot scoot'elec was a genuine POS equivalent to other 50cc scoots when restricted to 45km/h, except nearly all scoots run de-restricted over there, the scoot'elec was restricted by design limitations... Uhg!

Let's hope the new one is better.

[knightmb]

ZAP's three-wheeled electric vehicles are built in China; ZAP merely advertises and sells them. I'm pretty sure they did not design them.

They were designed here, but China picked up the manufacturing for them since no one in the US would unless the vehicles cost 2 or 3 times more. Over time, they come out with revisions to the models, mainly fixes to equipment or design (first models had the power controller getting wet in the rain due to a design flaw or the DC-DC converters wouldn't not last long due to poor quality, etc)

The new vehicles, not sure on the design team as I haven't had the chance to really look at their background, but being a stock holder gives me the right to demand such information, might have to exercise that one again soon.

[CGameProgrammer]

Heh, it's hard enough to justify $10,000 for a 40-mph weird-looking car. Since parts are the same either way, it's funny a Western manufacturer would have charged as much as $20,000 extra purely for labor.

[Stevil_Knevil]

They were designed here, but China picked up the manufacturing for them since no one in the US would unless the vehicles cost 2 or 3 times more. Over time, they come out with revisions to the models, mainly fixes to equipment or design (first models had the power controller getting wet in the rain due to a design flaw or the DC-DC converters wouldn't not last long due to poor quality, etc)

The new vehicles, not sure on the design team as I haven't had the chance to really look at their background, but being a stock holder gives me the right to demand such information, might have to exercise that one again soon.

The story I know is quite the opposite. Apparently these cars were being built as gassers by the same manufacturer, and they were modified to electric drive at ZAPs request.

I was working for ZAP when the first prototype Xebras rolled in. I was their main (and only) tech guy, and got handed four different versions of prototypes. I was responsible for spec'ing the programmable Alltrax controllers, and I based that decision on the fact that we could tweak the parameters to optimize the system for different battery chemistries, motors, driving conditions, etc.

I did my best to polish that turd, but there just wasn't enough ZAP turd polish to make it right.

Oh, and they made it backwards. Turds are usually pointy at the end.

ZAPs (Zero Advanced Planning) MO is to buy product from manufacturers, slap several ZAP stickers on it, then mark it up 100+%

Lame lameness.

I dropped them like the steaming loaf that they are, and ran screaming just over a year ago.

The hub motor is still very cool, though. I look forward to whatever information you can pry from them.. in a road-kill fascination kind of way.


-S

[CGameProgrammer]

A company deceives its stockholders. Shocking!

What's funny is it's by far the closest thing to a mass-produced electric car that we have. I'm waiting for a decent electric car or series hybrid that's available for a reasonable price, but I expect to be waiting for quite a while. Even significantly simpler motorcycles/scooters are very rare. People like to claim they're developing vehicles 500% better than anything out now (like the VentureOne), and of course they are vaporware.

Even with Lotus handling chassis, frame, and final assembly for the Tesla and maybe ZAP and others, production would have to remain low because they don't even produce many normal cars. They have only the Elise and Exige, expensive sports cars, and expensive sports cars are not sold in large quantities.

[newbie electric rider]

very funny knievil, still laughing

[Malcolm]

I did my best to polish that turd, but there just wasn't enough ZAP turd polish to make it right

Would I be right in thinking that you weren't altogether happy at ZAP?

Yeah, the three wheel layout has so much potential for creating a lightweight, stylish electric vehicle, that it hurts when someone comes out with something so ugly and underwhelming as the zebra.

[knightmb]

A company deceives its stockholders. Shocking!

I'm sure I'll never get them to admit it, but it's nice to have some insider information. Glad to know the real facts now

What's funny is it's by far the closest thing to a mass-produced electric car that we have. I'm waiting for a decent electric car or series hybrid that's available for a reasonable price, but I expect to be waiting for quite a while. Even significantly simpler motorcycles/scooters are very rare. People like to claim they're developing vehicles 500% better than anything out now (like the VentureOne), and of course they are vaporware.

Even with Lotus handling chassis, frame, and final assembly for the Tesla and maybe ZAP and others, production would have to remain low because they don't even produce many normal cars. They have only the Elise and Exige, expensive sports cars, and expensive sports cars are not sold in large quantities.

I've always wondered that to. Why come out with a vehicle that is so different than what people are use to? Is it wrong to make a good electric car that looks similar but not exactly to a Honda or Toyota vehicle? Then from that build up more "interesting" models to sell but have a solid base to start with. Seems a lot of the electric cars want to be electric and soooo different that you aren't even sure if it's safe to drive it around.

[CGameProgrammer]

The Tesla is based on the Elise platform, so it is 'normal' in a sense. There are two reasons for this: one, it's a sports-car platform and they want to dispel the myth of electrics being economy cars, and two, it's extremely lightweight. A Lotus Elise weighs less than 2000 lbs despite being built to handle 150 mph and fast acceleration. Normally such cars are heavy, like 3200 lbs for a Dodge Viper or 3350 lbs for a Ferrari F430.

[slayer]

i think hub motor is a great idea too ....no need for transmission or a shaft...and it would be easier to desgn.

here is a link from another hub for cars
http://www.tm4.com/eng/tm4transport/moto_wheelmotor/

[xyster]

Invented and produced over a century ago by Ferdinand Porsche, my how far we've fallen in some ways since then....

Porsche's AWD EV:
http://www.caddybug-usa.com/catalog/hub_motors.php

Porsche used his latest development: the wheel hub motor, praised in the contemporary press as an epoch-making innovation, to power his first all-wheel-drive automobile. Porsche's wheel hub motor functioned without gears and drive shafts because the wheel, which was connected directly to the rotor of the direct current motor, rotated around the stator which was attached to the wheel suspension . The drive mechanism therefore worked without friction losses to an extraordinary efficiency level of 85 percent. This Porsche invention was even employed by NASA when its moon car explored the surface of the moon. Today, international car manufacturers are using this technology for the development of future emission-free vehicles .

Porsche's Hybrid Electric/Gas Automobile:
http://www.ltv-vwc.org.uk/wheelspin/ws_ ... orsche.htm

"Dr. Porsche was born on 3rd September in 1875 in Bohemia, and among his first achievements was the design of an electric wheel-hub motor that was used in 1899 to power the first electric car built by the Vienna based Loaner and Co. In a move which is still being exploited, he also developed a hybrid powered vehicle in which the hub electric motor had its electrical power generated by a petrol engine. This design was used in both cars and in the Austrian Army's Landwehre train designed to move heavy equipment and supplies."

[knightmb]

Great ideas from a Century ago, makes you wonder what happened? I think I know; Greed

[CGameProgrammer]

That hybrid is not the same as a hybrid car today because it doesn't use batteries, from the sound of it -- rather, it's the precursor to diesel-electric trains, which do indeed use electric motors due to the improved ability to haul heavy cargo.

[Geebee]

How would a hub driven car perform in a steep hilly enviroment?
Would it be like the bike hubs that once the rpm drop to much the efficiency goes out the door?
I often drive up a hill that is similar to Baldwin st NZ ie. around 38% grade, I really want an electric car down the track but even avoiding the steeper routes means coping with 25% long grades everyday, will a hub or a single speed drive cope or will I have to wait for a multi speed transmission equipt EV?

[Mathurin]

I recall seeing a video of the Hydro-Quebec/M4 hub motor equipped car, it did burnouts spinning on it's self, lots of smoke covering up the thing... Then they sold out to some company, and now hummers are hybrids(?) Ah well.

[slayer]

Mathurin the hub you are talking about is stll alive here is the link...
Head Office located in Boucherville (Québec)
Hydro-Québec is the sole shareholder of TM4

with 4 hub motor like that you can climb any hill even with only 2

http://www.tm4.com/eng/tm4transport/moto_wheelmotor/

they have all the component to make complete electric or hybrids cars

[Mathurin]

Bonus points to whoever finds that burnout video online.

[Kraeuterbutter]

@xyster:
two month ago i was in museum here in Vienna (raining saturday...)

there was a very interesting exhibition
"Vienna, and how it learned to drive cars" or something like that

there was - i think it was a porsche - electric car..
the interesting part:
in the beginning they were outperforming the combustion engine vehicles..

you also have to considere: this combustion engined vehicles of that time were very load, poluting the air, smelling strong in much many more ways than todays car do..
and: refueling was not allowed in the city ! there was no "gas-station" inside of vienna.. it was said to be much to dangerouse, so refueling a vehicle was only allowed outside of vienna

when i saw this electric vehicle (it was build very heavy, like a horse-cart),
and the batterys... i was realy impressed about the distance this car could go !!
unfortunatley i have forgotten the excact number, but it was not far off the value electric-cars got 10-20years ago..
this was very impressive to me, seeing this
(also this car looked realy in-efficient.. i guess no ball-bearings for example)

it was a very interesting exhibition...
(for example was it not that easy for the vienna people to understand the concept of footpath/sidewalk and the street..
there were films for cinnema, so the people could be educated WHY they should use the sidewalk (because of the dangerouse 5mph cars !)
speedlimit was first ~5mph, later 8mph and then freaking 10-11mph !!


well hope i was not too far offtopic..
for the 85% efficience of the porsche.. another thing i can not realy believe after i have seen this electric cars from that time in real...

[Kraeuterbutter]

back to topic:
has nobody consernce about un-sprung-weight ?

i mean, people invest money for 2-3kg safed weight for each rim at the car.. (alu-rims vs. steel ones)
and than ad 10-20kg (or how heavy such a outrunner might be) in the rim ?

doesn´t that effect driving-performance significantly (makes it worse) ?

[xyster]

Thank you for that interesting bit of history about Vienna's EV's, Kraeuterbutter.

Here's another fascinating historical snippet, focusing on the Edison nickel-iron battery -- with upwards of a 100 year service life, probably the longest-lived battery available still:
http://www.ieee-virtual-museum.org/coll ... 5874&lid=1