Amberwolf's Recumbent Tadpole Ought-One (ARTOO)

[12p3phPMDC]

http://cvt.com.sapo.pt/ivt/ivt.htm


Check this page out ..... pretty cool IMO.

[Miles]

Good find

[amberwolf]

Yeah. Lots of possible variations, including our two threads here on ES:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=10998&start=0
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15618&start=0
and one on DIYEC:
http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/sh ... 41164.html
which has the resolution of why this particular idea won't do exactly what I'd like, but should still be useful.

Then there's Naeem's new thread:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=16329&start=0
that should prove interesting and useful.

[Miles]

This is the most promising one I've found, so far....
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=16386

[amberwolf]

Unfortunately the person does not respond to contact attempts; I ran across that one a little while back and thought it quite interesting.


AussieJester's package arrived today, so now I have the crucial parts for disk brakes, and a Watts Up to experiment with in any way I need to (unlike the Turnigy that I need to keep intact). Plus some extra long brake cables and a dual brake lever, all of which ought to come in handy for the trike.

Seeing the parts in my hands makes it a lot clearer exactly what I will need to do with them to adapt them to my motor-powered IGH front wheel ideas.

Now I need to figure out how to secure the rotor to the IGH. The Sachs hubs are really going to be a PITA to try to do that to, while the Shimano hubs have a solid enough endpiece on the left that I could probably machine a keyway into it and make a rotor adapter that screws into the spoke flange but also acts on the strong core of the hub that way.

The Sachs hubs have a totally separate endpiece that is part of the coaster-brake arm setup, so the only place I can secure any adapter to is the spoke flange.

What it might come down to is fixing the hubs so they have no freewheel, then putting the brake rotor on the sprocket mount along with the sprocket itself, or putting the rotor on the motor's axle hub instead, and having to deal with the braking forces going into the drive chain.

I started working on the damaged Shimano hub, and got it most of the way apart for the core, but found I can't get the freewheel's ratcheting ring loose, so I can't take the planet carrier out, and thus cannot put it back together either. There are two small bars that insert thru the axle in a slot that fits either side of the left end of the PC, which are what the spring and pushrod push on either side of to do the shifting. But one of them has to be inserted on the left end of the axle, which can only be done with the PC out of the hub, as there is not enough space to fit any tools that could hold onto the bar well enough to manipulate it into the slot from the outside, between the bearing ring and the axle itself.

So...until I can make a tool to remove the freewheel ratchet ring, or figute out a way to use an existing tool to do it, without damaging the ring or the hub, I can't put this one back together, nor can I risk taking the other one apart to check it out or clean/lube it beyond just adding some oil via the dropper hole.

I'm still cleaning the external gunk off a Sachs hub to check out what I can do about the left end of it to put the brake rotor on there, since I won't be using the coaster brake anyway.


Now, as for the internal construction and condition of the Shimano hub, it appears to be in decent shape, though there is obvious wear on the tips of all the freewheel pawls. Not much on the gears themselves, at least on the sun and what I can see of the four planets. The bearings are in good shape, as are their races, but they did have a lot of dried gunk in there that used to be oil or grease.

Some WD40 and a brush got most of that out, then I soaked the whole thing in hot soapy water to wash out what was left of the oily mess. Even though I can't yet reassemble it properly, I repacked the bearings with the red high-temp grease I use on my other bike bearings, which at least doesn't melt and run just sitting in the hot Phoenix sun, unlike the regular yellowish "axle and wheel bearing" grease I have tried from automotive places.

I reassembled it without the two bars, and put the whole thing in a plastic bag so it will stay together until I get a way to put them back in.

I forgot to take pics of it while apart, so I'll do that when I go back to it. And try to remember to do it for the Sachs as I clean it up. At least the Sachs I have a disassembly manual for, found in PDF form online, so no surprises when I start working on it.

[Miles]

Unfortunately the person does not respond to contact attempts

I didn't have any problem. You won't learn anything about how it works until the patent is published, though.....

[amberwolf]

Mmmm...I have trouble contacting lots of places; it's probably the way I write or talk--they just don't want to bother with me since I sound like I'll take up a lot of their time (probably right, too).

Unfortunately also seems to be an issue with finding employment, but shortening my written messages and reading from carefully edited scripts I write before I call doesn't seem to help much either, especially once I have to talk to them live.

[amberwolf]

haha...i took an involuntary nap and when i woke up i found a reply from them in my email. wierd synchronicity that they'd choose to do so within literally an hour of talking about them. where is that xfiles smiley...
<.<
>.>
O.O

[Miles]

[amberwolf]

Well, I just had the most brilliant idea for how to do the front drivetrain on ARTOO, using the disk brakes, IGHs and the gearboxed wheelchair motors, just as I woke up from another involuntary nap.

Then I promptly forgot what it was, just as I was putting pencil to paper to sketch it out.

The good news is that once I think of something like that, it's almost always lurking right around the corner, and eventually like a sulky cat it will come back to me.

Eventually could be a long while, though. Right now, I feel like I'm on the edge of another nap. I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired.

[amberwolf]

still havent' rememberd the idea yet.

viewtopic.php?p=242212#p242212

[amberwolf]

I'm still working on this project; just been stalled with being ill for a while (am again, now, not as bad), and trying to figure out how to do all the little things it's going to need, especially the front drivetrain and brakes, before I begin building it (so I don't have to redo things as much).

Also still making decisions about the geometry. Might keep it shorter.

[amberwolf]

Crosspost from another thread discussing shifting for the motors:

I really wanted to use a Sram DualDrive on Woody to help with the chain path but they're so darn expensive and I was having a hard time finding a Strumey Archer at a decent price. I've never even seen a DualDrive and it's probably been around 4 decades since I've been on anything with a Strumey but I assumed if I went that route I'd need a little more precision shifting and would probably need to go to some kind of stepper motor control to get the precision.

I got lucky on the hubs and got some from the city dump via Spinningmagnets and Ejoness. They're old and apparently well-used Shimano 333's and Sachs types (2 of each). I also have an SA from the same era (70s or 80s) found at a bike swap meet not long after I got those. I'm still working on how to build a disc-brake adapter for them, too, probably going to layer some aluminum panel scraps together and cut on the lathe, bolt them to holes drilled between the spoke holes on the flanges.

I'm not sure exactly how I'd do the shifting motorization, but probably I'd count the number of turns needed to shift it one gear, then build a little incrementable/decrementable counter and set it up to turn off the motor after that number of turns. So it would be just commanded to shift one gear at a time with a pulse from the shift control (be that a button on the bars or an electronic command). It'd be easier to do with a PIC or AVR or something, I'm sure, but I already have a bajillion old boards with 74xx series logic gates on them, so I can use those for free instead of buying an MCU kit, and then having to figure out how to program it (I suck at that kind of stuff). I'd probably just dead-bug wire up the gates and stuff.

What is your idea for taking care of the automatic side of things on your trike? Something like the LandRider or are you leaning towards something electronic?

Not familiar with the LandRider; looked it up on google and found it uses weights to shift, I think. I'd probably instead be basing it on current draw from the motor, since the front wheels would both be motorized, and the pedals only run the rear wheel. As the current draw increases beyond a setpoint I'd have to determine, it'd trigger a shift down. As it decreases below a slightly different (lower) setpoint, it'd shift up. I'd likely also put +/- buttons on the bars, that would override that automatic shifter until I press a "cancel" button.

The current measurement can be done with a simple shunt in the motors' power path, and amplify that with an op-amp, with a couple of comparators to determine if it sends a shift up or a shift down pulse, which can trigger a 555 for whichever one it needs to do. As long as the shunt is in the path leading to both motors, before it splits to feed each separately, it will measure total motor power and shift both of them at the same time. I just have to put enough hysteresis between up and down for it to not try shifting all the time, especially under the following conditon:

To keep it from having to shift under load I'll probably also put an interrupter to the throttle circuit, which will momentarily take power from the motors during the shift, then reapply it just like it was before. That will cause a current surge so I have to be sure that the current measurement/shifting doesn't shift until the current has been high for a certain period of time. Also the current drop when power is cut has to be prevented from shifting up.

This whole method might not work at all, but since I am mostly trying to have the gears there for it to be more efficient rather than to run at any particular speed, it should do what I am after. I think.

I've also copied this post over to the ARTOO thread, so I won't forget about this later on when I get back to the fancy stuff for that trike.

[amberwolf]

Been pondering disc brake rotor adapters and such. Basically, it would be a ring that conforms on the right side to the surface of the hub, including spokes as they lay against the spoke flange. Holes would be drilled between some of the spokes in the flange, along with the ring, and they'd be bolted together. The rotor would bolt to the ring just like it would the thread-on adapters for flip-flop hubs.

So whatever I use for an adapter will be based on a solid 3D model made for CNC machining of the ring.

The Sachs hubs (which are built with coaster brakes in them already) are a problem--without some major alteration of the left side of the hubs, I just don't see how I can get a rotor on there. At the least I'd have to leave off the entire torque arm and cover for the brake end. I'm not yet sure if that leaves exposed bearings or whatnot, I have to check the disassembly manual first.

DSC02676.JPG (23.65 KiB) Viewed 689 times

The Sturmey-Archer is easier, but it's curvy endcap is difficult for me to model in 3D in negative form.

DSC02677.JPG (26.27 KiB) Viewed 689 times

The Shimano 333 hubs are the easiest. They've got a cylindrical section and then a simple cone section, then down to the flange.

DSC02674.JPG (37.46 KiB) Viewed 689 times

DSC02675.JPG (39.26 KiB) Viewed 689 times

I've also got ideas to test the adapter idea using some sheet aluminum scrap I have (old rack panels and such) by making some rings to bolt to these two aluminum hubs, which are just regular bike hubs off the Schwinn Sierra.

DSC02678.JPG (26.96 KiB) Viewed 689 times

DSC02679.JPG (18.72 KiB) Viewed 689 times

I may instead use some older 10-speed steel hubs that already have ellipsoid holes in them from the factory, so I am not drilling thru these. In either case, I'll just drill the six rotor holes all the way thru the aluminum scrap and then the hubs, using the rotor's existing mounting holes as guides. Then bolt the rotors, rings, and hubs together and see how they hold up.

Of course, I'll have to weld on some caliper-mounting points first, and I'll use an old 10-speed fork for that rather than the nicer-looking Schwinn Sierra fork. For the rear, I'll weld to the Trek frame (that is the rear part of the cargo bike the Sierra is becoming part of). Then I'll know if the ideas are sound enough to use on the trike, or if I'll have to use the 3-speed hubs outside of the wheels, and use regular disc brake hubs on the wheels themselves.
viewtopic.php?p=261352#p261352

[amberwolf]

I've finally seen a Landrider in person. It does look interesting, and if I'm lucky I'll get a chance to stick a motor on that drivetrain to see what happens. If I was just pedalling it, I would take a while to get used to the autoshifting--I see why they are not popular with regular cyclists; it's kind of unpredictable at first and throws you off cadence.

But with a motor doing the real work, and me just pedalling to help, the sudden changes in torque would not be a big deal, especially if my cranks were freewheeled from the motor.



Some thoughts on the 3speed hubs and braking below, originally posted in another thread today but figure they belong here too:


I wanted to use the coaster brake feature of a pair of Sachs 3speeds Spinningmagnets sent me, but haven't figured out a good way to do it. I'd either need contactors to reverse the motor connections of my brushed motors, or a full-bridge controller. Neither one is particularly appealing, though the controller solution would require less engineering at my end, since I would not have to deal with spindown, etc.--it would do that for me with just a signal on the Reverse input line (from the brake lever in this case).

Assuming of course that the controller was well-engineered, rather than leaving it up to the user to ensure all conditions necessary for reverse were already met before engaging it.

I would still need a little electronics outside the controller though. A little circuit that cuts off the regular throttle input, and puts it's own throttle control input instead, immediately after the Reverse input is triggered by braking. That way the motor is not accidentally triggered full blast in reverse, breaking stuff inside the hub, but is held in reversed position by minimal throttle until braking is stopped.

That gives only full braking. If I wanted to modulate the braking force, I would need to monitor the brake lever position, and use that as the throttle input instead of a fixed low-% of throttle.

It gets complicated pretty quick, so I decided it is easier to figure out how to mount disc brakes onto the hubs, or use rim brakes, than it is to deal with the coaster brake by motor power.


I did have an alternate mechanical braking option using a rod or cable activated manually, but it would require rotating the entire hub's axle/torque-arm forward while maintaining it's anchor to the frame to prevent spinout. I don't feel confident enough in the ways I have to make the parts to be sure it wouldn't fail under use, compared to a simple fixed dropout as it was intended for.


Since a power or controller or motor failure would also cause zero braking ability, that was a further motivation to skip the motor-activated coaster idea and go right to the fully-mechanical rim or disc brakes, plus a mechanical brake on the pedal-only wheel.

[amberwolf]

I ended up with the autoshifter from the landrider; it's in the CrazyBike2 thread; I'll probably test it on that.


I thought I'd posted this but I guess I forgot: A friend donated to me a useful book that should help me with the 3speed hubs if I need to maintain them/etc, among other things:
http://openlibrary.org/books/OL5709732M ... cle_manual
http://www.amazon.com/Glenns-Complete-B ... 0517500930

It's a 1973 edition, probably a first printing but I am not sure--it doesn't say. Since much of the stuff I run across is almost as old as this book, and many things about bikes haven't changed enough since then to make it's info unusable, it's a good book for me. Includes things like how to take apart completely and maintain pretty much anything one would find on a typical low, medium, or high end bike of the time, including complex 3-speed rear hubs (of which I have a few exactly like the book shows).

It should be very useful in learning from. Hopefully I won't damage it in the process.

Now back to your regularly scheduled procrastination.

[bionicdan]

What it might come down to is fixing the hubs so they have no freewheel, then putting the brake rotor on the sprocket mount along with the sprocket itself, or putting the rotor on the motor's axle hub instead, and having to deal with the braking forces going into the drive chain.

.

These are expensive but often think that this will incorporate nicely with someones build if you could reproduce it from scrapyard parts. Not sure how easy oiling your chain would be after just dont stop riding it incase any runs onto the pads lol now wheres my chain wax

http://www.harleycustom.co.uk/L2-Tolle_ ... 2-162.html

[amberwolf]

I generally don't oil the chain here in Phoenix anyway; the flinty dust just ends up stuck in the oil and grinds the chain and teeth away faster than a dry chain wears. Only oiling I usually do is to soak a rusty chain to free it, when I get junk bikes/parts to reuse. Then it gets washed out when done, wiped down good, so there's little of it left in there to attract dirt.

I've had the chainring/brakedisc combo idea suggested to me for another bike (can't remember which one), and I've been tempted to do it. Since I don't have the budget to buy new ones, though, I'd drill and file a brake disc's rim for chain teeth myself.

[stanz]

Interesting thread I wish I could see the @#!$%^! pictures!

I've been thinking about a tadpole myself. Since my back surgery my flexibility is very limited and getting on the bike is tough.

[amberwolf]

Some of the pics are over on my electricle blog:
http://electricle.blogspot.com
under the ARTOO posts. The rest...I dunno.