JD's VW Bus Conversion EV project (2 of 2)

SRySwe said:

I'm impressed!

Maybe it's the overvoltage to the DC-DC converters that causes the heat at charging?

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Thanks!

I trimmed the vicor psu to exactly 48v. The converters say 48v94w in, 3.7v74w out, so that means 20w of heat from each one. Not sure why they only pulled 65w each, or what the heat output was there.

-JD

Today I replaced the passenger front brake line, now the bus no longer swerves left when I step on the brakes. Diagnoses was easy - when I first got the bus, it swerved to the right when I stepped on the brakes, and it turned out to be the drivers front brake line. Too bad I didn't replace both at the same time .

I installed the brake vacuum booster. I 3/8"-1/2" adaptor from brass plumbing parts I bought at Lowes, and hooked up the booster to the existing vacuum lines. It blew the 20a fuse I had connected to my main power line (the fuse on the booster itself is 25a) but a 30a fuse seemed to run OK. It never shut off though, so I probably need to replace all of the original VW vacuum line (sigh). Worse, the pump seemed to spew oil; I have to track down THAT leak. The manufacturer warns to never set the oil-filled muffler on its side - and I never have - but gotta wonder about what other problems the oil-filled muffler could introduce. It was reasonably quiet though.





I bought the new high-current CA from Justin. I couldn't easily find a project box that was the right size, so yesterday I ended up cutting up the plastic case of an old UPS to fit and mounting it to fit. So, with the new CA in place I ran another test with the new batteries, and I youtubed video of the run below. The shunt setting was already at .5000 and in high-current mode from the factory, but oddly again the continous battery-side drain the CA was @40a, spiking up to 60-70a occaisionally. It consumed 145wh is about 1.2 miles.

I am concerned that I was only seeing 40a, because if it was off by a factor of 10 - then I would be burning 1,450wh in a mile and this project will be unviable, and a failure. I checked the voltage on the video - at 50a the cells are @86v, so that would be 30 cells@2.8v, reasonable for 5c or 400a, low for 500a. My 400a silicon fuses should have blown at 500a though, and the batteries should have heated up instead of remaining cold.

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Edit/Update: On a whim, I changed the default shunt setting to .0500; looking back in this thread, I see that I did that with the last CycleAnalyst on page (6). This new one is the high current model, designed for an external shunt, so when I saw .5000 I just assumed it was set correctly. It was not! Now, I see amp values jump up as high as 419a, but not a factor of 10 like .5000 vs .0500. Because there was a lot of traffic I didn't do the full mile, more like .85 miles, and consumed 527wh. That isn't fatal to the project like the 1,450kwh/m I extrapolated from the 145wh/m I got at 0.500, but it is worse than the 500wh/m I considered to be my worst-case scenario. This makes me wonder about the wh/m numbers I have seen posted by folks with lead-acid bus conversions, I'd rather fail and publish the results than lead other builders astray with false numbers. As it stands, it seems pretty likely that I am going to need to go to 180v for the pack to have enough Kwh to do my full daily commute.

On the other hand, that .85 mile course did include (5) stops, so it real-world consumption for my commute might not be so bad. I think I might also find some effeciency when I change the transmission fluid (gear oil) to something lighter, and doing the wheel bearings etc helped comuta-car folks a lot, I might get under 500wh/m. Since my commute includes a trip home for lunch, it is possible efficiency gains and a lunchtime opportunity charge could get me there. Or maybe I just do the morning commute in the VoltsBus and the afternoon commute via ebike. Or maybe I will have to fall back on the original Comuta-Car project.
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So anyhow, here is today's video:

[youtube]BrkBNopZn-Y[/youtube]

Great project, I've enjoyed, like others, reading all the build details.

I have some thoughts about the required to roll down the road.

Are your tires rated for low rolling resistance and well pumped up? I believe rolling
resistance is the major drag at low speed. I'm into road bike racing and I sweat over having
the best tires because it makes a very big difference.
Most interesting for bicycles, the best rolling resistance tires also
have the best traction(on pavement), I do not know if that is the case with auto tires.
Is the motor truely running free? Does a fresh motor require braking in? Have you tried a "roll down
test"?, with in gear and neutral. One can calculate rolling resistance with a "roll down" test as well.

Thanks Motorsmoke!

The tires are old, standard tires, but I have them pumped up pretty high to reduce RR.

However, I re-read a message I got from Justin before I ordered the High Current CA, and realized I didn't absorb this:

For a 500A 50mV shunt, you would want to set the RShunt value in the high range mode to 0.1000 mOhm . If you tried to set it to 0.0500 mOhm, it would have reset itself to 0.078 or so since that is as low as it can go.

Click to expand...

Going from .078 to .100 should give me somewhat happier wh/m numbers. So I'll reset the Rshunt to 0.1000, and run ANOTHER test this weekend and see how it goes.

-JD <----- Fingers crossed!

*bump* What's the latest oatnet? More videos please!

pwbset said:

*bump* What's the latest oatnet? More videos please!

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Thanks for the query pwbset - I've been fighting an inner-ear infection (vertigo and tinnitus) for a few months, but it got really bad last week and I haven't been able to work on anything. Last Saturday I laid out my 'new' Thomas and Betts TBM5 crimper (thanks for the tip lapwing!) and T&B purple 4/0 lugs to fix the cable with the popped lug, felt the room spin and decided I was just not in the right condition to be working on high voltage.

After I get well and repair the cable, since nobody has expressed interest in buying my Comuta Car, I might just start working on that instead. A man with 2 EVs is like a man with two mistresses. :lol:

-JD

Any news on the e-conversion of the poptop camper? or commuta car?

The updates with battery pics, wiring and youtube videos used to keep me glued in front of the screen.
Hoping the thread won't roll off the end of the forum. Will there be a grand finale?

Former poptop bus addict (wife negotiated reduction of fleet), now eBike addict; maybe time for an ePoptop for me also sometime...

jag said:

Any news on the e-conversion of the poptop camper? or commuta car?

The updates with battery pics, wiring and youtube videos used to keep me glued in front of the screen.
Hoping the thread won't roll off the end of the forum. Will there be a grand finale?

Former poptop bus addict (wife negotiated reduction of fleet), now eBike addict; maybe time for an ePoptop for me also sometime...

Click to expand...

Hi Jag!

I have had trouble getting back to working on this project, I think it permanently damaged me.

I used Turtle Wax Bug and Tar cleaner to remove built up gunk. I chose it specifically because it was the ONLY one at Kragen that didn't have warnings on the label about fumes or letting the water go down the sewer, so I thought its forumla was safe. I used it outside, but my garage area is enclosed on three sides, and below grade. I noticed a strong petroleum smell when I first applied it, but then I guess I got used to it I didn't notice it anymore. I sprayed off the cleaner with a hose, did other work for a while as it dried, and then spent hours under the bus mounting the controller assembly and throttle. At some point, the room started spinning, I called my wife on the cellphone, and she came down and helped me out. When she walked out, she said 'It smells funny down here, like gas or oil or something'. I couldn't smell it all.

I spent the rest of the weekend in bed, feeling awful, my ears were ringing. I went into work on Monday, realized I couldn't concentrate, and suddenly thought maybe I had had a stroke or something. I made an immediate appointment with my Doc (a substitue actually, my regular Doc was on vacation), who mentioned something about inner ear infections but sent me to the ER for a Cat Scan. That came out as 'negative', I got home and looked up inner ear infection, and since my ears were ringing and I was dizzy I figured that was what it was, it was supposed to clear up within 6 weeks I just had to tough it out.

The vertigo is as bad as it was that night, but my concentration never returned, and my ears never stopped ringing with the same tone and the same volume since that night. Since the symptoms did no resolve, I went back to my Doc who sent me to an EENT, who sent me for a hearing test which showed I had great hearing but no audio reflex in the right side (where the ringing is much louder) indicating the problem was neurological not with my hearing. I went to a neurologist, who sent me for an MRI, which didn't show anything so he told me it is with my hearing, and that he thinks the audio reflex test is hocus-pocus. So I have spent thousands on Doctor Bills, the Docs are pointing fingers at each other, I am not eager to line their pockets more to let them do more of that, I still can't concentrate, I get dizzy if I move too fast, and as I understand it I will have the tinnitus for life and never be able to enjoy silence again.

I know that all of these symptoms started the night I spent hours in fumes I couldn't smell, so I think I got brain damage that night. Even though my wife confirms that the fumes are gone, I just haven't been able to get myself to work on the Bus again. Someday I will.

-JD


DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER

AVOID THIS PRODUCT AT ALL COSTS

DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER




DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER

AVOID THIS PRODUCT AT ALL COSTS

DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER DANGER




EDIT 12/14/12: replaced pictures lost when the forum crashed a few years ago.

http://www.turtlewax.com/res/msds/T525.pdf

1-3% methanol

I actually went blind for a few hours due to methanol exposure.

Everybody: Try not to get chemicals on your skin and if you can smell it, get away and improve ventilation until you can't.

JD,
Sorry to hear solvent exposure made you ill. Keep up the hope for recovery. Our body and brain are remarkably robust, despite all the new stuff we get exposed to that nature had never intended.

Having methanol and other solvents without proper warning texts seem wrong to me. The shellac primer I use for vapor barriers in houses is also dissolved in some mixture of various alcohol derivatives. The can clearly says ventilate well. I still get dizzy from exposure. Standards evolve and maybe in the future an full mask with organic filter will be specified for these kinds of chemicals. Then of course a valid question is: If it is not good to breathe should it be let our in the atmosphere at all?

Hope you get better.
Martin Jagersand

It is also possible you have BPPV. Did the EENT rule it out?

Working in awkward positions can move the crystals in your ear to bad places.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benign_paroxysmal_positional_vertigo

JD, sorry to hear about your problems after exposure to Turtle Wax Bug & Tar and Tree Sap Remover. Hopefully your symptons will improve.

And thanks for the warning. Went out to the shop, and sure enough the stuff I currently use to clean the stubborn stuff is Turtle Wax Bug & Tar and Tree Sap Remover. Had this 16 oz can for several years, and it's still about 1/3 full, so never use much at a time, but have never worried about ventilation with it. Will just use it outside from now on!

Thanks for the good words everyone!

Rassy, glad you are alerted to it.

TD, BPPV was mentioned a few times as a possiblity, but the tinnitus and lack of audio reflex point to cerebral, and the timing happening exactly with the chemical exposure make me think otherwise. I had been under that thing for weeks, it was just after the chemicals that the problem started. At the time, since I thought it was 'safe' it didn't occur to me that perhaps the dust from the fire extinguisher, and years of motor oil/grease/smog, would be in the mix, who knows what I breathed.

jag, I agree about the warning labels. I hate dealing with opposing lawyers, but I also think "what if this happens to someone else?" I don't have the will to persue it right now, but I do feel I have been permanently damaged, maybe I will take it up at some point.

pwbset - thanks, and I hope your injuries are healing fast!

gogo, thanks for the MSDS - I have been meaning to look that up. I'd add to your advice "if you smell it initially" because after that first 15-20 seconds, I couldn't smell it anymore - I thought it was just ventilating away. It wasn't until my wife came and got me, and pointed out how strong the small was, that I realized I was still sucking it down.

-JD

OMFG! I hope you get better soon!

Fumes are nasty, I spent a lot of my construction life exposed to one or another, and wearing a gas mask did nothing to reduce the skin exposure. Laquering doors before I knew better, We'd wear masks all day spraying, and then clean the spray machine with laquer thinner, washing parts in a coffe can with bare hands. Then we'd feel like shit for a few days.

Fumes can really concentrate in holes. On a golf course irrigation job, I spent 8 hours a day in a pit glueing pvc pipe together. By the greens there'd be a hole with a big manifold to put together with many fittings and valves. Many times I got out of the hole, took 6 steps and passed out on the green for awhile. At age 21, we considered this a job perk! Duhhhhh. A lifetime of stuff like this is why I'm so stupid today.

For cleaning stuff, I am liking the citrus based stuff nowdays. Definitely stay away from gasoline, every year some old fart burns himself to death washing parts in gas.

Just talked with my wife, who's job is chemical safety and disposal for NMSU, and looked at that msds. She's saying the methanol is very bad. They use it in the labs only with huge hoods sucking it all away and gloves. The petroleum distillates is most likely some type of paint thinner-kerosene type stuff and could be just as harmfull. With gloves, in the front yard, this bug and tar remover should still be pretty safe, but in your case the fumes collected on the floor of the carport at ankle level giving a much higher exposure than usual. Fumes really like to collect low for some things, the time I set myself on fire, I was in flames to the knees from contact cement fumes that collected in a bathtub.

oatnet - I am not a doctor but I'd suggest doing a blood test with full liver enzyme panel (AST/ALT/GGC etc.) It is not an expensive test and toxic exposure frequently has effects on liver function in addition to any neurological effects regardless if toxin was inhaled or consumed. It may help your doctor diagnose the problem and also can provide evidence if you ever decide to proceed with legal action (not that I am a big fun of it but in certain exceptional cases like yours it may be appropriate).

Maybe it would be a good idea to ask/look around for a doctor who is a specialist on methanol poisoning, ie someone who has published research papers on the topic. Those of us who own a VW bus know that if you bring it to just any mechanic it is unlikely that it gets fixed right; but in most cities there are a few mechanics who specialize in buses. With doctors it is pretty much the same; they are just paid more highly.

In the nordic countries methanol poisoning is relatively common. It used to be in the news regularly when I grew up. The common cause is people drinking distilled alcohol that is either home made or made for industrial use rather than human consumption (therefore not inspected and clean of methanol). The damage is not caused by the methanol itself but acidic derivatives produced in the metabolism of it. The same enzyme breaks down both methanol and ethanol. A treatment used back home is to drink regular alcohol to about 0.1% blood level concentration. During the first day/days after methanol poisoning consumption of regular ethanol alcohol will tie up this enzyme, and thus slow the breakdown of the methanol into its poisonous derivatives. Unfortunately now it is probably too late to inhibit the poisoning effect. I haven't heard about the drinking method here, though that may be because of avoiding public mention of drinking to levels of intoxication. I don;t know what treatments are used in north America. It seems to me that the best course of action is to find a doctor who can read the product data sheet and knows the research literature on the area. One might also consider testing the actual product. Product quality standards aren't always very good, and there may be other toxic substances and/or higher concentrations in there than reported.

While you say that you don't have the energy and interest to do legal action now it may still be good to ask for some advice. Evidence may need to be secured sooner rather than later. I'm guessing you may also need an expert witness (ie doctor). Your regular doctor and his stand in may have misdiagnosed you and therefore have a biased witness opinion. Specialist doctors in the area may have been expert witnesses already, and would be familiar with what type of evidence to secure.

Old time painters, using oil base stuff, swear by drinking the paint thinner out of their system. They claim dillution is the solution to pollution. Hard stuff, they say beer won't cut it, but a pint of tequila or whiskey does the trick. There might be something to it, but I allways thought it was more of an anesthetic thing, or just that beer wouldn't get you high if you sniffed paint all day. Since these guys allways had yellow whites to thier eyes, I took nothing they said too seriously.

Hows it going Oatnet? I hope the effects have mostly worn off by now!

*bump*

Hey oatnet! How's ya doin? I've started working on my '72 bay campmobile again now that temps are above freezing again. Wondering what's the status of your '74 VW EV?? Keep us posted!

dogman said:

Old time painters, using oil base stuff, swear by drinking the paint thinner out of their system. They claim dillution is the solution to pollution. Hard stuff, they say beer won't cut it, but a pint of tequila or whiskey does the trick. There might be something to it, but I allways thought it was more of an anesthetic thing, or just that beer wouldn't get you high if you sniffed paint all day. Since these guys allways had yellow whites to thier eyes, I took nothing they said too seriously.

Hows it going Oatnet? I hope the effects have mostly worn off by now!

Click to expand...

Dang, that gives drinking alcohol for medicinal puposes, a new meaning..lol

Honey, did you say you want me to paint the house....

Roy

pwbset said:

*bump*

Hey oatnet! How's ya doin? I've started working on my '72 bay campmobile again now that temps are above freezing again. Wondering what's the status of your '74 VW EV?? Keep us posted!

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Hi pwbset!

Are you working on conversion, or working on the ICE ?

Well, I found out that I really like doing the EV work. I am not that enthusiastic about restoring vehicles. My biggest hangup has been the taillights, I don't want to drive without being able to signal stops and turns. The wires leading from the right side to the left taillight were melted during the ICE fire. The color coding made it easy to match up the wires, so I just soldered in new wires between them, but it just didn't work. The lights only worked on the left side, and then the brake pedal showed up on the backup light, unless I turned on the lights then it would work the blinker.

The big diagnostic plug also melted, and that seems to connect to every wire in the harness. I cut it out to eliminate any shorts, it didn't help. I took a shortcut during the wiring - each bulb had a big wire and a thin wire leading to it, and since they had a common destination, I soldered one patch cable between both wires. I've considered redoing the wiring, but these days I've been messing with my new Vectrix Scooter with what little time I have.

Maybe I'll hire someone to do the VW work for me. At times I've considered moving the pack to the gas tank area, and reconfiguring it to 120v60ah. At other times I've considered selling the project whole, and other times I've considered parting it out. Until I figure it out, I just move it back and forth across the street for street cleaning.

-JD

oatnet said:

Are you working on conversion, or working on the ICE

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ICE for now until batts are dense enough/cheap enough to even get me like 200mi without breaking the bank. 3-5yrs maybe? Who knows.

oatnet said:

I've considered redoing the wiring, but these days I've been messing with my new Vectrix Scooter with what little time I have.

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I re-did a LOT of wiring using only the wiring guides at http://www.vintagebus.com | http://www.vintagebus.com/wiring/bus-73-75.jpg Was surprisingly easy, but time consuming. Everything works now anyway.

oatnet said:

Maybe I'll hire someone to do the VW work for me.

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That's where I'm at on the engine. I want to use the bus this summer not be working on it. Wanna pay to dial the engine and then I figure I can just learn the mechanicals as things break down. :wink: :lol:

Maybe by the time you're ready to sell I'll be ready to buy. :wink:

The VW addiction grows! Gonna drag home these lovely twins for next to nothing and convert the one on the right to EV eventually.

Nice score! I look forward to the details!

-JD