Tidal Force : "The Long Ranger"

[icecube57]

Well Ive been off the scene a little while. Rethinking the direction I wanted to go for my next build. i was pushed in the direction of an X5 that my friend gave to me. It had some issues. It was an x5303 in a 20inch rim that was bent. The axle/stator was rusted solid. It would not turn. I opened it up to discover that some how water got inside and cause rust and oxidation to occure inside the motor. I took a steel wire brush and attached it to my drill and went to town on it. I removed about 95% of the rust on the magnets. I cleaned the windings and stator the best I could. I cleaned the oxidation off the side covers. The halls tested good. I had to repair a phase wire that broke from the phase circuit board. I also wiped all exposed metal with a thin layer of oil to protect it from further oxidation. It later sat in my garage collecting dust.

At the time I was still pimping my golden motor at 72v. I took my bike out to the trail to shoot a video but before I left I had a feeling something was going to happen to my bike rack on my car but I ignored the feeling. That was the last day I rode my GM. I stopped by my job to see if they had any deliveries going on my way home. I picked up a few and proceeded to leave the parking lot. I hear a loud pop. Looked in my rear view. No bike rack on the car but it was in the middle of the road with my bike still attached. I turned around to check the damage. One bent front GM hub motor rim and one expensive ass Mavic rim totally pwned by the pavement.

It had my boss haul it back home on his truck where it sat for weeks. Unlike the 6 Million Dollar Man. It wasnt worth to rebuild him. I had a good friend named Devratl that was and still is trying to find his place in the Ebike world. He has some very clean electric bikes that hes built for himself. We have been riding together quite some time. He had an extra bike in his garage. Guess which one it was... Yes the Tidal Force. There is glowed in all his glory. He gave me a price I couldnt refuse. But the thought in the back of my mind is.... Im starting all over again. Its going to be a long expensive road.

To make a long story short it took alot of help from a good friend. Alot of spare parts. Alot of time and waiting for money and parts. I had to relace the wheel to a new rim. Get it trued. Put everything together just to have an epic fail. My ole molested controller blew. I though there was a crossed phase or something but my maiden voyage was taken at 100.8v and the input resistors werent a high enough value to drop the voltage to the LM317 Voltage Regulator. So it probably went poof along with the gate drive and a few fets in the process.

I went to Lyen and purchased a 72v 45A controller from him. I gave him the controller program settings and listed my wants and within two days I had a replacement controller with a few goodies. That man is AWESOME!!! Thats the best price and service you are going to get in the USA.

I slapped everything together. Soldered and made some connectors and zip tied the wires and everything and there she was sitting there in all her glory. She was complete. I took her out for a spin on a fully charged 18s Lipo pack... A well needed step down from 100v..... But you know what the GRIN was back. It has so much torque and acceleration. I was very impressed that it was able to take the hill leaving my house at 17mph with no assistance what so ever. Other motors like the 9C and my GM would have struggle and required some pedaling . It took the hill and basically laughed a me and said you called that a hill. The bike handles pretty good. The shock is a little soft. I have to adjust it. There is so much torque that I have like a acceleration squat where the bike feels like it wants to wheelie. Im currently running Bell Cruiser tires. They are 26 x 1.95 slicks. Im running them at 60 in the rear and 50 in the front. They are quiet and have plenty of grip. The motor is pretty impressively quiet. You feel the cogging but its ok if you stay under 15mph. Its pretty comfortable and doesnt require that much extra effort. There is a slight vibration around 5-10mph when slowing down. Nothing to be concerned about but what I am concerned about is the controller. This motor is a watt whore. WOT it easily gulps 80wh/mi that is if you have the balls to lay in the throttle. The controller is very hot to the touch. The motor is hot to the touch also. I may have to change the controller settings and back off on the phase current. It supposed to be set at 115A phase and 45 rated. Another thing I noticed is regen really sucks. Im not sure if the force is programmed high enough. It does pretty much nothing and I have to be going atleast 20-25mph for it to kick on. I know it takes high rpms to gain enough BEMF to create regen but you have to go way to fast. To me is just creating excess heat in the motor and controller. The brakes are both v brakes. I think the pad material is way to soft. The brakes feel spongy but it does cause the tire to skidd in an emergency it just a mind furk that you think you dont have brakes. I got the rim trued and it spins pretty true. But im in that phase where im seating spokes so I hear a few of them creaking. I will get a few more miles in and gave them retension the wheel.

Im only running 3 5AH 25C Turnigy lipos. They start out strong but kinda fade after 3 AH. Im waiting on HK to get some more in so i can upgrade to atleast 72/10 and hopefully 72/15. Im verry impressed at the performance and weight on these things. Im kinda shooting myself in the foot for wasting time with Thunderskies. I had the range and the watt hours but it was extremely heavy and at 72/10-15 would be a third of what the thunderskies weigh and they fit in a regular rack bag.

Enough of the BS... On to some pics

[DervAtl]

Chef, this is the cleanest bike you've built, buddy. My bad habits are rubbing off on you <grin>. I can't wait to take a spin on the Silver Comet and see how she runs. You've got quite a bit of change-up on this bike, compared to your previous builds. I think you're really going to like it. Of course now that you've got all that power, I hope we don't have to stop at every electrical outlet for a fill-up. You need to get those extra packs in soon. With this monster puller hub, it's a good thing you got rid of those Eveready's and put some "High C" beef under the bonnet.

The other day when you called me on the phone to talk about your pack, you must have said LiPo. With our poor connection, I thought you said Lycra. Just don't go "Kia commercial" on me and tell everyone that we meet "you can have this (pointing at your bike), or you can have this (pointing at me and my lame comfort bike build).

[beast775]

those are fetching frames,i like the silver gray color,nice tidy build.

[ambroseliao]

Nice build, Ice!

First thought is that you need to upgrade to disc brakes. I couldn't ride more than a month between v-brake pad replacements. You especially need discs with all that power!

Congrats on getting back on the road again! I love my TF bike!

Ambrose

[icecube57]

Well so I took the rig out to the trail today. The Tidal Force frame is very light. Even with the 24lb X5 on the frame its lighter than my Mongoose. I have a dislikes about the current build. The gearing is horrible. Its a 48T Front and a 14T rear. Thats the highest combo I have. It only allows for 16mph with a comfortable pedal cadence. I can get up to 18mph with a little fast pedaling but overall its slower than the 22mph Im used to with a 52T 11T. Handle bars seem low for me. I need a higher comfort style adjustable bar. The bike rides pretty good at high speed. There is no drag at all when pedaling above 10mph. When you get lower than that its like you are dragging an anchor. (Clears throat) I also need some fenders just to make it look more sophisticated.

The throttle I have seems to be a little touchy. There is almost no such thing as low speed cruising. What I really mean is there is hard to do any hypermiling even with cruise control set at a very low speed and pedaling along. At any speed a flick of the throttle throws you back in the seat. Its nice but it defintely gets you to change your riding habits. Especially with only 5AH on tap. I like the acceleration ramp. It gets into the 20s quickly. Slowly climbs to 30mph. Then it gets a second wind and accelerates up into the 40s. Has more torque than Ive felt with any motor. Even at high speed it pulls really good. According to the simulator it has double the torque of any other motor Ive had.

I need suggestions on changing the controller phase current. Its now at 115A phase and 45A Battery Current. Lyen said that it was way to high for the 12fet on this motor. That it was basically race/drag settings. Then what is normal for the X5 also keeping in mind this is a 5303 so it can induce alot of current. I cant get any fun out of the build for fear that the controller is going to pop. Lyen told me that I should try 90A Phase and 30A battery. I think Im going to severely limit block time too. I can let the phase current go unchecked for to long. I dont want my build feeling anemic but i do want to save my controller. The motor Im sure will be alright. Its been 95+ with high humidity. The controller is mounted under my rear rack above the rear tire so it should be getting some good air turbulence but not enough to stay cool with these temps. Im pretty sure I wont have this problem in the fall and winter.

I need to order 2 more 6s Turnigy lipo. I currently have 4 packs and I am only using 3 for 72v. If i order two more I can have 72/10AH and have more fun. I already know I can get 20 miles on 4Ah out of the 72v5AH pack I have. I only used 4 to avoid deep cycling these packs. They were quite warm at the end of my ride... My first though 25c my ass. I was barely asking for 10C. With 10AH I probably will stay around 8AH max. They probably will run alot cooler with one more in parallel. Im trying to keep things light unlike my last build where the pack was heavy but it had enough wh and the endurance to outlast me or any rider.

Thats enough rambling for now.

[John in CR]

80wh/mi. What's it get if you take it easy? Keep in mind too that to easy the load on the controller you need to either accelerate with WOT or quite slowly. The in between throttle usage except at cruise is hard on the controller. Hills demand WOT, if you don't want to pop that controller. I still haven't wrapped my brain around why WOT acceleration is easier on the controller than say 75% throttle for acceleration, but that's the results I've gotten the past 2 days while testing my controller ventilation strategy.

John

[icecube57]

I can get 18-25wh a mile. Perhaps lower. And it probably is the low speed loading of the motor and controller. I havent had any real chances to let it go. Anytime that I do its just like in an SUV you just watch your gas hand go down rapidly. Its very capeable but maybe too capeable. I have these three speed switches. They help but the inductance on this motor is just retarded compared to the GM. Its consumption is 3-500w higher easy. To cruise at 23mph takes 1200-1500w. According to swbluto simulator the controller heat for the 0-25 range is 350-600+w. At high speed it gets more acceptable. My old Golden Motor in a worse case senario causes 260w of controller heat. Less than half. Caused by the 5303. Big difference.

[Evoforce]

Way to go! I have a 5303 also and love it. Good luck. Just got back from a 30 mile ride towing my daughter around on her chariot. These motors are beasts. My build thread is in pictures and video under Evoforce bike build 1, 2, 3. I'm glad you have your grin back.

[icecube57]

So Ive been blind charging my packs by putting the same amount of AH back into the pack but yet charging at the wrong voltage. The cell voltage and everything is right but I had to baby sit it and unplug it at the right time. The voltage was a bit high to charge the pack needless to say. It suck having a power supply with a limited voltage range. So today I broke down and modded the power supply. I did the fan mod by putting a 1000ohm resistor where the thermal resistor was. Its stays on and it slow and quiet. When you put a load on the power supply it speeds up to full speed. I also modded sv1 with a 10k trip pot. The original 1k ohm sucked ass. Whenever the power supply was idle it would be set correctly. When the power supply was charging it would be .5-.7v lower until it cooled off which was normally when it was tapering the current when the packs were fully charged. This 10k pot gives me alot more range and resolution and is not affected by temps as much. I barely get a .1v drift if any. Since im charging 18s I made 3 positive and 3 negative pigtails for the charger so I can plug all three packs up at once in parallel. I have the battery medics doing top end in balancing. Im happy that I can finally charge correctly.

I also picked up a 100ohm resistor. Im going to mod my controller to go down to 48v operating voltage. It will have a plug that I can plug in and unplug to parallel a resistor across R01A-B to take it to 72v stock or 48v modded. I have to reflash a lower lvc but that no biggie. 48v 10AH is enough for 30 miles of riding for me with plenty of performance. One think I like about lipo. Its modular and only take what you need. =P You can have a fast fun day or a slow easy day.

[John in CR]

If you're charging blind, then an electrical timer that cuts the power is extremely useful and can give you a surprisingly accurate cutoff, since you know how much need to add back. It's a level of protection you need. I ran that way for 6 months with a 17s pack and charger for 20s. Of course going to 20s was the best solution, so I stopped having to worry about the timer.

[icecube57]

Oh Im good now. It charges fine. I need to keep an eye on it but no need to watch it count off anymore. Gets to the desired voltage. It tapers off to nothing. It floats. Pack equals charger output and doesnt drift high or low. I take them off the charger and by the time i use them theyve only dropped 0.02v max. Its all good.

My Meanwell doesnt charge as agressively at low voltage as it does at high voltage. I may get 200-225w out of it at low voltage 25.2v . At high voltage around 50.4v. I get almost 450ishw.

[icecube57]

With my limited lipo configuration of only 4 6s packs I can only run 3 voltages. 100.8, 75.6, and 50.4. I didnt want to test my luck at 100.8 again so I decided to mod my controller to accept a 48v pack.

I opened it up and damn there a nest of wires crammed in there. I measured the input resistors and figured out I needed to put a 1000 2w resistor across r1 to drop the input resistor value to 380ish. I started doing my mod and I went back to check my work. I kept measure 86ohms when I got done. Im like wtf. I check all the resistors. I even changed the battery in my volt meter. I finally figured out instead of 1000ohm resistors i bough 100ohm resistors. So I had to run out to radioshack and buy some more resistors. They only sell up to 1w. So i had to grab 4 1w 1000ohm resistors and do a 2x2 arrangement to get the rating and resistance I needed. I soldered one wire to VCC next to the R01 resistor and ran it outside the conntroller. At then end of the wire I put two 1000 ohm resistors in parallel for 500ohm. The other end of the resistor put another short piece of wire on. I put shring wrap over the resistor and solder joint. I put a plastic covered spade connector to prevent accidental shorts when not in use. I ran another wire from the other side of the r01 resistor and repeated the steps above.

I reprogram the controller with a voltage limit of 39.4v. The closest they had was 40.5v so thats where I sat it. Which leaves a lipo level of 3.375v.I left everything else pretty much the same. I backed off blocktime from 3 to 1. To reduce runaway current draw with an already hungry motor.

I put everything back together and mounted it back on the bike. Took it for a spin. Yeah the speed and some torque is gone but I was still able to get to 35mph although it took some time. Still accelerated faster than any other bike I had. It still sucking amps at 48v. I had a battery current peak of 80A at 48v. At 72v I could barely get peaks around 65A. The 48v 10AH configuration really extend riding time cause it doesnt gobble the wh as fast but there is still motor heating and still controller heating. Around my house there is alot of hills so im thinking thats whats so hard on the controller. In the flats and real world where you have the top in speed and momentum to overcome hills it shouldnt be that much of an issue.


Another concern about the bike is tank slap or speed wobble.

Speedman's wobble - Some bikes will start to wobble when ridden at high speeds. The effect is especially noticeable when riding with no hands. The front wheel rhythmically oscillates back and forth. The degree of wobble can range from amusing to downright dangerous. This effect can happen with any bike, but can be enhanced by bad frame geometries.

The bike at high speed over 35mph has a tendency to wobble left to right if not checked. I read that if your suspension is really soft and the shock isnt keeping the wheel on the ground that it can cause that problem. If i lean forward a bit it dampens or eliminates it. Especially when cornering. when I lean forward into it decreases. Or it could be cause by retarded frame geomentry. Also being that the frame is very light and the weight is shifted to the back more means the front wheel isnt loaded as much. I noticed on my first bike (steel) with a suspension for and a front WE motor it did this. My second bike a lighter aluminium frame with GM it didnt do it. My third bike a heavy aluminum frame with a steel rigid rigid Surly Instigator fork didnt have the problem. The Tidal force bike is really really light aluminium that has a front mid grade aftermarket suspension fork has the problem. I actually noticed that when I first got the bike the suspension was really soft and sensitive. I adjusted the shock a few turns and I got alot better. I think I may tweak it a little more. Its still a little bit soft for my taste anyways.

[icecube57]

So I just went out for a 20 mile ride on the trail. I ran my bike in the 48v 10AH configuration. At 44v i got up to 42mph on level ground. I did a little bit of mix riding. I didn't plan to do a full cycle on my pack but on the way back I got real lazy. I stopped by Dairy Queen and I pigged out on a medium Blizzard. So I was sluggish on the way back.

So i did a full cycle and I actually hit my LVC a little bit early. It was at 40.9v. My lvc is set at 40.5v. So it pretty close. The total discharge was 10.2AH. My cell voltages were OK. They weren't bad. They were sitting around 3.35 - 3.45v per cell. Im thinking the pack is out of balance. Crap looks like it going to be hours of balancing. I turned the charger on. About 10 minutes later I checked the pack. They were all sitting around 3.7v with a deviation of .02v. I'm like bitchin. I really like lipos. Doctorbass was right about his experience of them cooling down while charging. The get all warm and toasty when you abuse them tho. I'm getting high as spikes on 44v. They were up to 86A Battery Current today.

The motor and controller overall were warm but not hot. I was easy on it today. So my experience on the house and on the trail lead me to believe don't try to find and conquer a hill on a 5303. If so break out the bacon and get to cooking.

Im also pissed i got a loose spoke that i cant tighten without throwing the wheel out of true. It clicks every rotation and its pissing me off. I'm going to take it back to the LBS one day and let them fool with it some more. Its only 1 spoke....

[icecube57]

My dumb ass finally went out and rod the bike with the CA in amp mode instead of watts. It seems like the controller is drawing alot of battery current. Isnt it supposed to be limited to whatever you set it like 45A for a stock 72v. Im seeing 60-70-80A sustained current under load. In the flats its limited. It seems like blocktime is doing something. Its set at 1 second for overshooting now. Im going to see if I can cut it off some how. I was getting weird cut outs like when you stall a controller. It would be level ground and I would be in motion. So its not like the motor was starting from a dead stop. Do the infineons have some type of built in thermal protection other than monitor phase current.

[icecube57]

I finally got around to reprogramming my controller. I was having problem with it sustaining to high of battery current which probably related to a very high phase current also. It was able to pull 60-80A for a great while without any limiting.

My controller settings were
115 Phase Current
45A Battery Current

My new settings are
90A Phase
30A Battery Current

Now it pulls 45-48A constant even under load of a hill. Controller still gets hot. Is it safer I dont know. I also cut back on my speed switch settings. They are doing 20ish mph. Although it could still get up to 25ish with a long enough road. But it does keep the current ramp pretty shallow to avoid high consumption. The other setting is 30ish mph and the last one Unrestricted with timing advanced. It feels good to cage the beast cause it was getting out of hand at times with the pervious settings. It seemed like every throttle position was 45mph. These settings work good on 72v but when I run 48v it could prove to be a little slower than I would like.

[icecube57]

A very lame and tame video of me on my way to the LBS for some work done on my bike. 20-25ish mph. I only rand 44v and I retarded the settings on my controller alot so I dont have that awesome acceleration. It was a very nice ride though. I got upstaged by some lycra chick. She was cool but i didnt want to be an ass and pass here because she passed me. She had a nice ass.

[docnjoj]

Those are fanFu*****tastic bike trails IC57. How come you got such good ones and we in Alabama get them half as wide and parallel to 50 mph traffic. Wah. That girl was Cadence 120! Wow!
otherDoc

[Evoforce]

Wow bike path. Wow girl. Wow you and your powerful crystalyte powered bike! P.S. Wow video!

[icecube57]

I havent shown the true potential. Batteries could put out but I only have 5ah for 72v operation. Thats less than 5 miles. The controller could be my bitch for 5 minutes i suppose. That video was sped up alittle bit but that chick was hauling about mid 20s. I was just playing around efficiently.

But on a serious note im considering changing my motor windings from a 5303 to a 5306. But the top speed kinda suck Im thinking maybe 30-35mph at 72v. But it will be so much easier on the controller. And torque galore on the low end. Should I or should I or shouldnt I LOL! It should be a simple change over. I need some heatshrink a torch a volt meter and some solder. About a 1hr job If im focused.

[icecube57]

Those are fanFu*****tastic bike trails IC57. How come you got such good ones and we in Alabama get them half as wide and parallel to 50 mph traffic. Wah. That girl was Cadence 120! Wow!
otherDoc

I swear you need to come up to Central Alabama and catch the trail up there. The Georgia part is like 65 miles long and it continues into Alabama for 20-30 more. Other than a few streets it crosses over its a nice fun trail most 1-2% grade. It was built on a railroad bed. Nice nature spots, wildlife, swimming holes, rest areas with good food. (Trailheads (entry points) with Power Outlets!). Lord forbid I get 2 meanwells. 600w of charging. If i hypermile and charge three times I could do the trail in a day. You get the cruise set and pedal along you can get about 12wh/mi. Some areas you dont need the motor you can coast or pedal because of the very gentle hills. Some areas are remote and you better have everything fixed on you bike. They even have signs that say Do you have your Cell phone, Sunblock, Water. This is a remote area of the trail. No amenities for the next 10 miles. =P Atleast they keep it real.

[Evoforce]

A 5304 will do 41-46 mph on 72 volts!

[icecube57]

I just went out for a nicccceee ride today. I was going to shoot an onride video to show some aggressive riding in traffic but i brought the camera and left the memory card at home. But the more and more I ride the more that I realize 72v isnt really needed. I went out today with my 44v lipo and loaded an aggressive profile into the controller. Basically higher phase and battery current. I went out for a a ride. The acceleration was nice with plenty of power on tap. It still feels kinda timid compared to 72v. I got up to a top speed of 42mph in the flats. It settled down to 38ish as the packs sat more at nominal voltage. The WOT consumption under my aggressive profile is 60wh a mile. Its high but its getting you there in a hurry. The consumption is a little over 1ah a mile. The battery current hovering between 60-80A. With the rolling hills and stuff it was able to power through them with the momentum I built approaching them. It still had plenty of torque getting up some larger hills at 25-30mph. I took it easy and finished off the last 4 AH of my pack doing some low speed cruising on the trail.

I talked with lyen the other day. Im going to do a controller cooling mod. It has an influence from Tmaster on the forum but Im going to take it another level. Stay tuned for that.

[John in CR]

Wait till you get that battery in the triangle and side saddled over the top tube near the headset. Then you'll be able to take aggressive riding to a whole new level, not to mention how much nicer the bike will handle when you are off the bike. If you ride in traffic too, it sounds like a series parallel battery switch is in your future.

[icecube57]

This is a short video from my ride yesterday. Its a side trail off the Silver Comet Trail. I didnt have my camera so I used my camera phone. Bad Decision. My HTC wrecked this video but Youtube is going to finish it off. It seems like you are watching the first Blair Witch Project and Im running from something. But the stuttering and motion blur adds character to the video. Listen for the autotuned cicada. Its a creepy noise. There is also some crows. They sound like they are laughing at you. Ill do better next time. Im running a little over 20mph.

[icecube57]

I went out for a quick spin around the block. What turned out to be a innocent joy ride end up in a EPIC FAIL! The 5303 grim reaper has claimed another controller. Gotta Love It. Turns out the end of my fun and my controller was those damn Anderson Connectors. Now I have Blown Mosfets. Now I feel the pain of GinDC when he has melted connectors. Fudgit!