Hill Helper

[rearengine]

Hi to all ! I've been lurking & learning , or trying to.. I have put together a mount for a friction drive on my recumbent.. I like the seat post mounts , but I have no seat post ... ( Pics ) I haven't settled on a motor, or controller .. was thinking of a Tunegy63-74-200, ESC Tunegy K Force , 5000MAH 6s battery..

I am also thinking of using a HUB motor in friction drive, one of the small diameter motors , CUTE ,or Bufang, Or smaller if there is one.. This would eliminate the need for outer support bearings , and also much simpler electronics.. What I know about electronics is ZIPPP..A hill helper & 20 mph is what i'm looking for.. I'm attaching pictures,and would like you guys to tell me what you think of all this.. This is one great forum , you guys know your stuff.. Don't pull your punches... Thanks ... Bill...

Picture 020 (Small).jpg (68.58 KiB) Viewed 1840 times

Picture 019 (Small).jpg (61.15 KiB) Viewed 1840 times

Picture 021 (Small).jpg (66.55 KiB) Viewed 1840 times

[jbond]

Mmmm. Bachetta! I so want one of these but they're too rich for me[1]. If I had one I'd use a Bafang SWXK rear motor in a 20" gear but laced to the rear 26" rim. And then mount the batteries under the frame. Something like a 20A controller with the smallest lightest 48v battery pack I could manage. Needs a fairing too. A friction drive is an interesting option. Light, no drag when not in use, unlikely to be used off road. But very DIY.

I do think 'bents lend themselves to some sort of chain drive motor. The cyclone style dual freewheel on a motor near the idler looks like it would work well, but perhaps not with a cyclone motor. And freewheels are never completely silent.

[1]I had a good look at a Bachetta Corsa 24. Could not believe how light it was. It would be a shame to lose that lightness.

[olaf-lampe]

Hi!
I can't give you any tips regarding your drive, but looking at the first picture it seems your front fork is bent a little?
Be careful, I had a broken fork on my recumbent last spring...
-Olaf

[rearengine]

Thanks for the concern Olaf, the fork is fine.. THe forword angle is how they get trail.. Jbond I have an Oatema hub motor in my Rans recumbent, ( can be seen in the back ground of one of the pic ).. It's great in the long wheel base bike , but I want to try simple friction in this one.. I've had gas friction drives on other bikes, and like that type of drive.. I think EvTodd , Kepler, and others have moved friction drive forward by leaps and bounds.. I am hoping to see if they think this type of mount will work , and about useing a small diameter hub motor as friction drive.. I think I saw a something about it on another thread, but can't find it now... Thanks .. Bill

[rearengine]

Please forgive a Noob...

Can I use 2-12 volt sla batterys to bench test a system using Turnigy 85 amp esc, 63-64-280 motor, turnigy Servo tester ? I have looked though the threads, but didn't find it.. Thanks

[Hillhater]

Can I use 2-12 volt sla batterys to bench test a system using Turnigy 85 amp esc, 63-64-280 motor, turnigy Servo tester ?

No reason why not 1
what is your concern ? ... 24 v is ok for the controller and motor. but respect the ESC's 85 A limit.
What sort of "bench testing" are you planning?

[rearengine]

Hillhater..

I just want to see if everything works , the drive on the bike and all... I am going order a Turnigy 5s 5000 battery ,And charger ...

[Samba]

I am also thinking of using a HUB motor in friction drive, one of the small diameter motors , CUTE ,or Bufang, Or smaller if there is one.. This would eliminate the need for outer support bearings , and also much simpler electronics..

A small hub motor - say 5" across, a circumference of 16 inches. Each 67 RPM of the motor will give you 1 MPH. They might normally do 350 rpm in a 26" wheel. That would make about 5MPH if its circumference is friction driving the tire.

You would need it to turn much faster - 4X as fast for 20 MPH.

The friction drive is nice because it can use a 2" contact roller to turn a 26" wheel - a 1:13 reduction. Then you get 260 wheel rpm (20mph)from a 3400 rpm motor without 2 stages of reduction gearing. With a 5" roller - like a hub motor - 5:26 - you'd need the roller to turn about 1350 rpm.

I'm not sure what you mean about simpler electronics. Its still a speed controller and a throttle whether the motor is in the wheel or in a friction drive?

[jbond]

Jbond I have an Oatema hub motor in my Rans recumbent

The arrangement I'd like to see someone try on a 'bent is a mid mounted rear hub motor (like a Bafang) mounted where the idler sprocket goes. I imagine two small (14t) sprockets mounted on this where the 7 speed gearset would go. One is a freewheel, the other is a fixed wheel. Then a chain from the front chainset to the freewheel and a chain from the fixed sprocket to the rear wheel. You then get the benefit of the rear gearing to help the motor up hills and there's enough freewheels in the system that you can pedal, motor or both. By using a slightly larger sprocket on the motor than the smallest on the rear gearset, you could get assist at a higher speed.

The gotchas in this are finding sprockets with small enough thread width that you can get two on the motor, locking them. And possibly reversing the freewheel inside the motor. I really should think through the drive train to see if that's necessary. If it is, there's a guy in Germany who sells a reversed freewheel for Bafang motors. You'd also need to rig up an idler on the front chain to take up the slack when on the small chainring. Perhaps an old derailleur mech.

[rearengine]

Samba...

I was thinking of the frction drive being simpler , not so much the electronics.. A friction drive that can be put on , and off the bike with out takeing the bike apart.. Ya.. I have gotton the hub motor as a friction drive out of my head ..Thanks for the Math on that.. I do have a Turnigy out runner now , but haven't got the mounting all worked out yet ,but getting close ..
Spinningmagnets modifide one of his drive heads for me so i can mount it to pull down into the tire from an inside radius arm .. Thats what I am working on now..

Jbond
I think I'll let you work on that chain drive, with freewheels and all .. Makes my head hurt I'm pulling for ya though, were all in this together Thanks Bill

Picture 045 (Custom) (2).jpg (46.58 KiB) Viewed 1570 times

[rearengine]

Well a little more progress..

Posting pix of Spinningmagnets mods to his drive that he did to fit my recumbent mount.. Also pix of it on my bike .. No electronics yet...

Picture 008 (Small).jpg (41 KiB) Viewed 1491 times

[rearengine]

Well It's up and spinning .. Running on sla 26 volts hot off the charger , do you guys think that is to much for 85A controller?? .. seems to spin like hell .. Touch the brake and it climes the tire as planned.. It will need a limiter I think .. I have that rubber ball stuck in there now for a soft landing... Any Ideas ,or advice about what to use instead of the ball would be appreciated..

Spinningmagnets one way roller is on the tire all the time , seems to coast down pretty well .. It just touches at start up , but it's jacked up .. Thats about all I can do now, It's winter here in WI USA...

Picture 024 (Custom).jpg (31.79 KiB) Viewed 1429 times

[spinningmagnets]

Before anyone asks, Rearengine deserves all the credit for his clever engagement mount design. Since his mount arms rotate in a different arc than the tire tread curve, it digs in deeper as its pulled back. Since he has a longer swing on the drive than me, the engagement depth into the tread will be more gradual and easier to adjust.

Looks good! the throttle wire you wanted is in the mail, should be there soon, with the Christmas rush over.

[rearengine]

Spinner thanks, I'll be watching the mail for the throttle wire ..

And thanks to all you guys on ES for all the lessons.. I hope you are having a Joyous Christmas & Happy new year to You all... Take Care ... Bill

[deVries]

Running on sla 26 volts hot off the charger , do you guys think that is to much for 85A controller??

Did you buy the HV ESC for 12s or the 6s version? The main reason these ESC fry is putting under load at partial throttle. Running full throttle no load is no problem. After motor spins-up (going maybe 4-8mph on road) & then applying load with full throttle is safe too. Partial throttle with load should be done in short bursts. Maybe only 10-20sec. Check your ESC for features... you may be able to program it for temp cut-off but use safety margin, etc. Also, check its heat on the heat sink during testing & if getting hot know what your temp limits are. There is a cheap HK temp sensor/alarm for about $9 that may protect you from frying the ESC too. There is an ES review thread on this item... Temp & Volts Alarm I Use Myself

Touch the brake and it climes the tire as planned...

Spinningmagnets one way roller is on the tire all the time , seems to coast down pretty well .. It just touches at start up , but it's jacked up .. Thats about all I can do now, It's winter here in WI USA...

Would it be possible to shoot some video to give more views of the mounts & arc arm? Also, video with it running and arc-climbing on the tire? I can encode the video & post it should you not have the software or time to do that.

Should work well. Nice work.

[rearengine]

DeVries.... Thanks for takeing a look.. There won't be any pix for awhile .. I've got it all apart now.. Some how I have to get a longer run on the tire, and the only way is to lengthen the raidius arms.. that will put the drive farther up on tire... Now If I do that , then the drive with the motor out to the side won't fit between the seat struts on the recumbent... So now the question is do I want to run the tire on the motor can... OH well it winter here...

Spinner ... If i run on the can I'll be needing a longer shaft .. Right ?? I don't know for sure that I will do this or not...

[rearengine]

Well I had a short test ride in my driveway today .. The snow is melting, and the road is a mess with salt and all .. I have no idea what the top speed is , but the low end is really good .. I find that I have to be moveing some be for i hit the ST throttle,otherwize it slips and searches up & down the tire .. I'll have to get a thumb throttle , the ST is to hard to find when you need it .. Don't ask how I know As I said it has plenty of low end..I'm running on two 12v SLA batteries.. I have things wired up more or less temporarily so I could get out and test befor the weather changes..

What kind of camera & equipment are you guys using to take pix rideing on the road ,and putting them on here.. ?? I think I saw a thread on a little camera on here ,but now I can't find it..

Picture 002 (Small).jpg (60.35 KiB) Viewed 511 times

Picture 003 (Small).jpg (57.94 KiB) Viewed 511 times

[AussieJester]

What kind of camera & equipment are you guys using to take pix rideing on the road ,and putting them on here.. ?? I think I saw a thread on a little camera on here ,but now I can't find it..

Picture 002 (Small).jpg

[attachment=0]Picture 003

808s Spy cameras are what your after
ebay is your friend for these dont pay more than 15 bucks delivered, i picked up a few of them now haven't paid more than 4 bucks a pop for them...Best of luck...

KiM

[rearengine]

Aussie.. Thanks for the info on the 808 camera, I'll check eBay... Happy New Year to ya ... Bill

[rearengine]

Qustion .. What are the penaltys for useing SLA Bats ,( other than weight) , I've been using 36V SLA on my 500w hub motor, 50A controller for about 2200 miles .. They still charge up to 39-40V fresh off the charger.. What I'm wondering is, Am I doing any harm to my RC out runner using SLA.. Maybe discharge rate , or something ? In the Turnegy controller progamming instructions nothing is said about SLA batteries.. So far No problem with the Tunegy 85 A controller with two caps, but haven't had a good test yet... Any advise ?? .. Bill

[TopCat]

What kind of camera & equipment are you guys using to take pix rideing on the road ,and putting them on here.. ?? I think I saw a thread on a little camera on here ,but now I can't find it..

A few members use these small minicams from HK...



http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=10093

GCinDC has a few videos in his thread using this camera...

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=14842&start=300#p267168

Regards
Tom

[spinningmagnets]

I'm curious about the use of SLA's myself. These small roller friction-drives don't have as big an amp-draw as the drives that use the motor-shell (though its wonderful how small and light those are). With a low amp-draw, the voltage sag that sometimes hurts SLA batteries (peukerts effect?), would be less of a concern.

The biggest concern (I'm guessing) would be a 24V SLA battery pack thats hot off the charger. It may have a voltage as high as (I don't know) 26V-27V? Thats part of why sharing information here is so great. If your Turnigy 85A/6S ESC handles a full 24V SLA pack, thats useful info. I don't think I would ever recommend SLA, but...a LOT of Ebikes are sold every year with SLA, simply because it lowers the buy-in price to get a bike running. Everyone knows that eventually the batteries will wear out, and when it's time to replace the SLA's, thats the perfect time to upgrade the chemistry and maybe even the voltage.

Payday is upon me, and I am getting longer motor phase-wires (would you like some too?). I will also be shortening the red/black power wires between the battery and the ESC (as short as possible), which I have read is quite important.

[rearengine]

TopCat.. That Tunegy camera sure took a nice video .. He must have had it mounted on his helmet.. I would like to mount a camera down so to see the drive , Mr Kepler style in his marketing thread..

My SLAs charge to 26.3 V .. I have a 36v charger , so I charge all 3 ,and keep rotating them to try and keep them equal.. It seems after they set for awhile they even out to with in 1 or 2 points of each other..Lugging two of these bricks around doesn't seem to bad, for now anyway... Not riding weather here, so I have no idea what range I'll have on a charge ...Peddle helping , mostly flat.. Anyone want to take a guess??? PRIZE , free ticket to yesterdays Rose Bowl.. Wisconsin lost ... Bill

[rearengine]

Well guys ! I got a problem ... I went for a 4mile ride the other day , every thing worked fine. great low end ,top speed 24mph ..THe drive ran up the tire when needed.. Man I was grinnin !!! Damm I was just getting ready to take a video to show you guys...

The problem ... the next day.. I turn on the esc switch, turn the ST to max, wait for the audibles, then turn to minimum, wait again for audibles... So far so good , but when I then turn the ST thottle up , the motor jurks once , and everything goes dead.. I've been through all the settings in the manual, and back to the default settings .. Checked all connections.. the voltage at the ESC 24.2..
The components are ...Turnigy 63-64-280 motor,Tunigy 85 amp with 2 caps, Tenegy Servo tester..

Does this sound like a blown ESC or a bad ST?? Nothing got hot , no smoke ,or smell ..

Any help , thoughts , Ideas ... sure would be appriciated... thanks.. Bill

[adrian_sm]

Noooooo. That sucks.

Not sure what it is, but sounds a bit like when I melted the insulations off my my motor windings. Is the motor difficult to turn by hand now. If so your windings may be shorting.

- Adrian