Tidal Force : "The Long Ranger"

[icecube57]

Ok Ive done some trial and error runs on the bike. I found a setting that worked flawlessly. Wait for it ...Wait for it....

40A phase and 15A battery current and 120% speed. Block time 1. It works flawlessly.

I tried upping the phase and keeping battery current the same. It shuddered. I tried a 1:1 ratio it shuddered. I tried 2:1. The higher phase current ratio seemed to pull the battery current up slighly higher than the programmed value no matter. So If i programmed 15A Battery and 40A phase its fine. But if i tried 50-60phase and 15A battery It pulls battery current up past 20A to where It shuddered.

Basically anytime the battery current went above 15-17A it shuddered. But works flawlessly through the entire range when below it. When the battery current gets above 17-20A it starts to shudder no matter what speed you are at. When the battery current stayed below 15-17A it ran flawlesslys all the way to top speed. What this means is I have a setup with 15A of current. Which equates to a totally LEGAl 750-1000w SYSTEM. But when you have experienced 5-10kw there is no replacement for that feeling.

Dont ask this bike to climb any hill... it wont without some pedal effort. If you live in the praries and want to hypemile your ass off then... its ok

So it seems to me that we need to look at how many amps this thing is pulling and how it interfers with phase detection.

It sorta makes sense that the wheel can go full speed with no load because. The amps arent being pulled high enough for it to misfire.

Im a heavy mofo so my shuddering occured at much lower speeds or even if i touched the throttle the wrong way as im loading my controller alot more than you light fellows.

Makes me wonder if i went to 88v and kept the amps below 15A would it work? It would take a long ass time to get to top speed... and again....dont ask it to climb any hills.

Wow its set so low that i cant make it up my driveway...... But it doesnt shudder! =P

[Spacey]

I will have to try that setting tomorrow, maybe because I'm lighter than you (13stone or 182pound) it doesn't judder as much when going up hills. But my Cannondale Gemini is a heavy downhill bike with 20 x 16ah Headway cells on it so we are probably about even

I can cruise at 25mph and go up hills pretty good but do have to mess with the throttle to stop it juddering.

What is your top speed with your setting, not sure that setting would get me to 37mph?

I will email Lyen your post to see what he thinks.

[icecube57]

http://www.hightekbikes.com/controller.html

Whats the difference between Lyens controllers and Terry aotema controllers?

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13044

[icecube57]

Im between a rock and a hard place. I dedicated myself to sensorless. I want to keep the motor I will even go as far as trying to replace the sensors again. At this point it maybe cheaper to get the clyte or get another ebike kit motor that has verified working sensors. And get another controller. Either way I look at it Im atleat 350$ away from getting something rolling thats able to go up a 2% incline. With sensorless now I have the controller tuned so far back that it doesnt shudder its 750-1000W and it cant climb shit. I think the lyen controller may not be up to the task of powering the new Clyte. Its an amp issue with his controller. High current is causing excess electrical noise to where the sensorless module cant detect the BEMF. This is my unedumacated guess. It has nothing to do with the electrical rpm limit cause we already know it can drive the motor to full speed when unloaded even at 100v. It spun up flawlessly.

As far as getting a clyte motor or controller....

If his controller is better and is verified to work with a 9C motor I will shell out the money to buy it. If he can prove this motor works with a lyen sensorless controller I will buy the motor. Otherwise im a sitting duck.

If the lyen sensorless controller can run sensored by adding halls wires I would just try again and add halls or buy a new kit/wheel.

[chroot]

Hey icecube57 - Have you see in HS3540 sensorless thread in tech forum. itselectric showed us the uphill and He able go fast 40 mph on flat road as sensorless motor! He also showed he had problem with the sensorless when dead stop in the uphill and he struggle get sensorless motor forward. Check it out.

It has do with Lyen sensorless controller problem itself limited 25mph maybe limited function? I dunno and itselectric uses different sensorless controller showed really powerful.

Methods mentioned he is going bunch of HS3540 and HT3540 motors and he is going custom 100V and 100A include 10 gauge phase wires! NASTY I probably going get one from him.

[Spacey]

It's a tough one, I'm in the same position as you know only I can at least go 25mph at full amps.

I too feel that it is noise created by the amps that is messing up the timing as when going down hill I can get it to 38mph powered by motor but only if the amps are around 10amps (guess). The Crystallite video seems pretty awesome with Chroot going up the hill....I would be happy with that performance.

It is not a speed issue with the Lyen Sensorless controller I firmly believe it is a noise/amps issue.

[Archer]

Hey Icecube57,

Can you clarify something for me,Iv'e followed this thread with excitement off and on but somewhere along the line I must have got lost on your situation.Earlier in the thread watching your videos and reading along you seemingly had a go-go long running super bike.What changed?

I don't know the first thing about these electric bikes but still like following along.I do have a 1-wheeled metal tube frame with a gas engine and a hitch that attaches to my bikes seat post.I call it a bike pusher,it is operated by a thumb throttle at the handlebar.Since from the time Iv'e had it I'm able to go long distances,which is so much fun.The only negative is the engine is to noisy.

Thanks!

[icecube57]

Hey icecube57 - Have you see in HS3540 sensorless thread in tech forum. itselectric showed us the uphill and He able go fast 40 mph on flat road as sensorless motor! He also showed he had problem with the sensorless when dead stop in the uphill and he struggle get sensorless motor forward. Check it out.

It has do with Lyen sensorless controller problem itself limited 25mph maybe limited function? I dunno and itselectric uses different sensorless controller showed really powerful.

Methods mentioned he is going bunch of HS3540 and HT3540 motors and he is going custom 100V and 100A include 10 gauge phase wires! NASTY I probably going get one from him.

If lyens controller was limited it wouldnt spin up to full speed under no load. It spins up fine without a hicccup. Put a load that brings the amp sup then its another story. When it shutter those amps spikes can be good for the controller. Im just waiting to blow a mosfet.

[icecube57]

Hey Icecube57,

Can you clarify something for me,Iv'e followed this thread with excitement off and on but somewhere along the line I must have got lost on your situation.Earlier in the thread watching your videos and reading along you seemingly had a go-go long running super bike.What changed?

I don't know the first thing about these electric bikes but still like following along.I do have a 1-wheeled metal tube frame with a gas engine and a hitch that attaches to my bikes seat post.I call it a bike pusher,it is operated by a thumb throttle at the handlebar.Since from the time Iv'e had it I'm able to go long distances,which is so much fun.The only negative is the engine is to noisy.

Thanks!

I had a 5303 motor. This motor is very hard on motor controllers. I was running on the edge of my first controller capeabilities. I then upgraded controllers that was beefier but not beefy enough. When I was making test runs with the new controller I blew a mosftet in the controller. I sent it off for repair. I sold the motor and switched the 9C. Apparently something happened with the halls. I tried to run the motor with a sensorless controller. It runs fine unloaded but shudders when its load. (misfiring).

The 9C is a solid motor when its working. Its very gentle to controllers it has tons of power and if I ever get it running its capeable of 50mph in the flats at 88v.

[icecube57]

From Lyen...
Yes, I have spoken with the people regarding with sensorless controllers running sensored. They said yes, it is possible and told the hall sensor mode will automatically triggered once the hall sensors are detected.

So it looks like im going to tackle the hall sensors again. Im ordering 6 on friday. Already doing the prep work with my dremel to lightly clean up the last repair. I will use some quicker setting glue/epoxy this time. I will do the repair in my garage instead of carpeted computer room. To avoid static shock.

I also have to bring hall wires outside of the controller. Which means I have to go back into my axle and put hall wires in. MOTHER $@#E$%&...

[GCinDC]

Wow. Good Luck!

It'd be interesting to see a gant chart or some other kind of chart, a band for each component say, with begin and end dates when put into service... it does seem like you're up on the bleeding edge there...

Any chance you could set up your camera over the work area, set to record in time lapse mode, or just speed up the footage later... not that you don't have enough on your plate... but it would be a way to treasure the experience...

[Spacey]

Icecube57, I've just finished a 12 mile ride based on your settings only I changed the phase amps to 50 and the normal amps to 25.

Only just and I mean just got up the slight hills at the top speed of 11mph! Along the flats though it was capable of 38mph with the 120%speed setting although it took a long time to get their.

Efficiency was out the window though even though I was using technically less amps than when I set it for 25mph max speed and highest amps.

It has to be 100% noise issues due to higher amps.

[Spacey]

@Icecube57: I've just ordered one of these 72V 40amp sensorless digital controllers...pretty sure it's the same one Ken was using in his video:

http://crystalyte-europe.com/product.ph ... 296&page=1

If it doesn't work with my 9C 2807 then I'll have to buy the HS motor as well.

[icecube57]

This is just a shot in the dark but can someone like Luke or Jeremy or someone with a scope in general check and see if there is a significant amount of electrical noise being inducted into other phase wires or another wire in general.

[John in CR]

I believe the reason sensorless works on the Xlyte is that it has a much lower pole count. The angled stator forces the overlapping windings, so it's 3 stator slots per coil instead of just one for motors like the 9c. That forces wider magnets and fewer poles, which means a lower electrical rpm per motor revolution for the Xlytes. Until you see the RC crowd jumping for joy over a sensorless ebike controller that works for them, forget sensorless for our high pole count hubbies unless all you want is pedalist speeds.

When you do go back in to add some halls go ahead and put 2 sets while you're in there, so you have backup if one craps out again.

Wait till you see the high power 9C alignment I'm about to light up with 7-8kw or more, ie the kind of power us XL guys need in half the weight.

John

Joh

[Spacey]

Bugger!......I had better cancel my order for the Crystalite 40 amp controller and order the HS motor instead as if what you say is correct I will still have the same problem that I have with Lyens controller.

So you reckon Lyens controller will work properly with the new HS motors due to lower pole count?

[icecube57]

The HS is constructed pretty much like a beefy 9C but if it were an x5 motor there probably wouldnt be any problem if John is correct. I though the same thing about the pole count and wider magnets. The electrical rpm isnt a limitation cause we know it will spin up to full speed flawlessly. Even Spacey and I said we could get to top speed. I was trying to get in contact with BLUESTREAK in Florida who bought a sensorless controller from lyen for his X5305 or 06 to see how his motor reacts on it. But when i talked to him in earlier conversations he mentioned it in conversation he spoke like it was the best thing since sliced white light bread. He carries it just incase the halls die in his motor. He even has a specia harness made for easy switch over. So it must work flawlessly on the X5 clytes and possibly on the 400 series but the HS and HT have straight stator teeth and windings similar to the the 9C so There isnt much hope.

[BLUESTREAK]

HOWDY ICE. I have made a couple of fake test when out riding my MERIDIAN TRIKE with the x5306. I would stop and pretend my halls had failed and quickly un-plug the 72volt 50amp.x5 controller and grab the LYEN controller and hook it up with my special harness that has the x5 motor phase wires on one end and has andersons connectors on the other and ride back home efortless back home. the only thing thats missing on it is (no reverse switch). I ride with out fear of being stranded like before on a 300lb. trike.

[Spacey]

The HS is constructed pretty much like a beefy 9C but if it were an x5 motor there probably wouldnt be any problem if John is correct. I though the same thing about the pole count and wider magnets. The electrical rpm isnt a limitation cause we know it will spin up to full speed flawlessly. Even Spacey and I said we could get to top speed. I was trying to get in contact with BLUESTREAK in Florida who bought a sensorless controller from lyen for his X5305 or 06 to see how his motor reacts on it. But when i talked to him in earlier conversations he mentioned it in conversation he spoke like it was the best thing since sliced white light bread. He carries it just incase the halls die in his motor. He even has a specia harness made for easy switch over. So it must work flawlessly on the X5 clytes and possibly on the 400 series but the HS and HT have straight stator teeth and windings similar to the the 9C so There isnt much hope.

I'm not so sure as up to 25 mph I can throw full amps and full phase amps at my 9C, anything past that and the wheel tries to go into reverse.

So surely having a much lower pole count would be the same as running the 9C at half speed?

[Spacey]

We need to confirm the pole count on the HS motors

[chroot]

itselectric uses sensorless lsdzs 12 fet controller and he set to 70A.

You better get hold of Methods ASAP cause he is going order bunch of HS and HT motor, He said he will install hall sensor and 10awg phase wires! 120v and 120A

I might buy one from him and build a gangster nasty motor + nasty controller run at 120v and 120A. overkill!

[Spacey]

Hmm I've already paid for the 40 amp sensorless controller from Crystralyte Europe but had sent them an email today asking them to change that order to a HS Motor.

Have not heard back from them other than an out of office email saying they are closed from 6th March until 16th March...todays the 3rd lol

I will PM Methods about the wheel

[icecube57]

Status update for my build.

I have the sensors ordered. I ordered 6. So I have two sets of chances to get it right this time. Should get them on Monday or Tuesday.

Instead of RTV silicone to install the sensors Im going to use JB Weld Quick because that silicone takes to furking long to set. JB Weld Quick Sets in 4 minutes. So no need to baby sit and wiggle to check for a cure every 30 minutes. JB weld Quick Its good up to 300F. If I had to remove it i could use a heat gun and remove it. I recleaned the hall holes from the last attempt. I may use silione right around the back of the halls but thats it.

I shrink wrapped (5) 24awg telephone wires and slipped them into the axle. The original phase wires are shrink wrapped. They are all fitting nicely in the axle and didnt give me much trouble.

I used some networking cable to install hall wires into the controller. The sensorless controller has pads for halls. The controller will check for a hall signal. If none are detected it will run sensorless.

Lyen also said that the controller doesnt support the 3 speed switch. It doesnt support it but it does have the SL pad which limits the speed. He has an analog alternative that puts a resistor on the throttle line so simulate/cap the signal voltage on the throttle signal line. Since I have a 3 speed switch going unused on my handlebar multiswitch from Lyen I will use it to switch into a legal limited mode using a speed % programmed to SL. I soldered a wire to the SL pad using my last spare wire I had in the Cat 5 cable going to the front of my bike. Its grounding through the ground to my ebrake line ground.

I should also mention that not only do I have push button regen but Im getting ebrake levers from Lyen also.

I did some spring cleaning in the controller. I asked Lyen to bring out a whole bunch of sheit that i really didnt need on the outside of the controller.(I like supporting my local controller makers) I order stuff i dont need or that I can do myself but Im to lazy to do it. I know Im always going to use regen so I remove the jumper connector on the outside of the controller and permenantly soldered BK to GND. Since I used CAT5 cable I made most of the connections inside of the controller which makes it a really tight birdnest inside the controller. I removed extra length of wire. I put hot melt on where the hall wires connect to the board to provide strain relief. I used some superglue around the rubber gromet to make sure it stayed in the metal end plate. I put hotmelt behind the unused holes. I cleaned and polished the heat sink bar. I put a generous amount of artic silver heatsink compound on the heat sink.

All I have to do now is install the halls tomorrow and cut the hall wires to length and terminate it with connectors. I should be ready to rock and roll Monday evening or Tuesday.

I repainted added another coat of pain to my side covers. Flat black looks awesome.

I realigned my side covers. I originally marked the covers so they go on the exact way but in a rush to test the motor I didnt reinstall them correctly so there was slight rubbing so I fixed that and got them in their original marked positions.

Im taking the 2.3 Big Apples off. They are nice but they are hard to mount on this narrow ass 9C rim. They slightly interfere with the rear Vbrakes. I have some tried and true walmart Ubran Commuter tread in the 1.75 size. I also have the slicks in the 1.95. I think Im going with the Urban tread. Smooth in the middle but slightly knobby on the side.

[Archer]

Icecube57,

I'm rooting for your success this time around.I know so little about this stuff but sure do enjoy your post.Lastly sure can't wait till your back in business,miss those videos of yours.Good luck....

[Spacey]

Pics or it never happened