Tidal Force : "The Long Ranger"

[John in CR]

Pole count and rotor is identical to a 9C. The H3 motors just have a thicker stator, making them almost identical to mine, just a lower Kv. It's been confirmed of in the thread in Technical. Lowracer's motor is different, a 5404.

I too hope the sensorless issue is solved, because it's something I really want to be able to use. One thing to keep in mind is that the problem with mind was happening at somewhere between 500 and 600rpms.

[Spacey]

Damn, I've already changed my order from controller to HS motor....now will have to change it back to the Crystalyte 45 Amp Sensorless controller. The Europe shop are going to think I'm either nuts or taking the piss lol

If it has the same amount of poles as 9C and 'itselectric' was able to get 40mph out of the HS rear motor then it must be the Sensorless controller I have that is at fault.

I would rather change my controller than my motor again as my modded 9C was a pain to mod.

[chroot]

itselectric already proved his HS3540 blew 5304 away by launching and speeding on his youtube vids. I don't think 9C can able beat 5304 that easy. I am trying ask him for challenge his HS3540 vs 9C 9x7 vids!

I am sure HS3540 will give you more torque due thick stators better than 9C 9x7. I am waiting for Methods recieve the HT & HS packages. I asked for 10awg teflon phase wires, able run at 100v and 100A and special hall sensor installed.

Where I live in Dublin and mostly flat road for commuter to work. However I am moving in new apartment soon, and where it will be on the hills so it's perfect time for me upgrade stronger torque but same speed. It also should better stable control the temperature than 9C can. I tried test full WOT from start to end on the hill while I was exam how the 9C perform from work to new apartment. My 9C motor REALLY HOT when it reached top of the hill and 9C gave me like 12 mph at full WOT.

Based on the following chart:

The HS3540 will out run the 9x7, and very close to 9x6, just a bit slower. And the 9x5 will out run the HS3540.
The HS3540 is very close to 5303 or 02
The HT3525 is very close to the Crystalyte 408, but just bit slower.

Price point, the 5x are the most expensive motors
9c had much lower price point, a bit more power then 408, so for dollar per power, 9c own the market
The HS/HT price is coming down to match with 9c price point, we should see more adaption on HS/HT

[chroot]

LOL hey look at Hyena's new sale of the xlyte HT, HS and comment!

If you don't know about these motors do a search - they're basically 9C weight but with X5 performance. WINNING! /charlie sheen

Who's in ?

[icecube57]

I want someone to guess why my motor didnt work. Its a very obvious reason and its stupidity on my part.

[icecube57]

Here is a fuzzy hint... notice the offset of the stator.... What I did is a perfect way to increase the KV of a 9C 9x7. It will spin alot fast. Wink...

[icecube57]

[Spacey]

Here is a fuzzy hint... notice the offset of the stator.... What I did is a perfect way to increase the KV of a 9C 9x7. It will spin alot fast. Wink...

You might have to spell it out for me as I can not tell from the pic......having a dumb day today.

[chroot]

Icecube57-

Time for you get HS3540 motor and they looks stronger than 9C. Dont waste your time struggle your 9C motor. Have you sent your 9C to Edward Lyen for the diagnostic your 9C motor?

[icecube57]

For those who cant figure out what Ive been doing wrong the whole entire time. (All the way back to when I had an 18fet controller) The stator of the motor was installed backwards. You could still assemble the motor together and It would run perfectly fine in sensorless mode. What tipped me off is i just installed new hall sensors and i was extra damn careful not to screw it up this time. I put the wheel back together and they still werent toggling when I spun the wheel and probed the back of the hall connector. I took the cover off the motor and waved a magnet over the hall. What do you know... they toggled. When i took the cover off I noticed the stator not being completely covered by the magnet. It was actuall 1/4 of the the way offset. The halls werent covered by the magnents. I studied it some more and pulled up a stock photo of the motor. The wires are coming out of the disc brake side cover. I looked at mine. They are coming out of the free wheel side.... Im sat in disgust know that all the problems I had resulted from me assembling the motor wrong to where the magnets werent coving the halls for them to toggle properly. One thing I did notice is the wheel speed was higher than it should have been. It reminds me on how they can change the KV of a motor on the fly by offsetting the stator to causing the field to weaken. If someone installed hall sensors on the opposite side of the current sensors and installed the stator backwards to where they had the partial offset they would have a faster motor without having to buy a motor. By how much im not sure. Its an intresting and proven thought.

Good thing the sensorless controller has a dual mode also. I though there would be a jumper or somerhting I would have to short to make it run sensored or sensorless. Im in the final assembly of the bike now since I know everything is working now... I may have to true the wheel again...we will see.

[John in CR]

You should always put position marks for the covers on rotor and covers before disassembly. I use a center punch and 1 dimple on one side, and one on the other. Then when you pop it open, at a minimum use a marker to right "Wire Side" on the inside cover where the wires come out. That will prevent this kind of issue as well as make it easy to line the covers up with the proper holes, so never any rubbing stator or other issue of getting that wrong. I used to use a deep scratch, but they can disappear after sanding and painting. A good dimple will always be there without being unsightly.

[icecube57]

One concern I do have is that right now i have the hall wires going from Blue Blue Yellow Yellow Green Green. This is clearly the wrong hall phase combo. The yellow and green are supposed to be swapped. When they are phase wires are swapped to the "known to work combination it runs backwards. When the controller switches into sensored mode it makes me wonder how is it firing properly with an improper hall phase combination. But the video shows that after spinning the wheel up its not operating in sensorless mode anymore.
When its running sensored and you try to stall the wheel with your hand it actually pulls very hard in the correct direction with no sign of stalling. In sensorless mode when you stall the wheel it jerks back and forth eratically and it quits trying after a few seconds. Which to me shows its in some type of sensored mode. Is it able to automatically put the halls in the correct order even though they clearly in the wrong order.

I cant do an official ride. I have to take my wheel to the LBS for truing. Might not get it back until tommorrow afternoon.

[icecube57]

Well I went to another LBS and got my wheel trued in about 5 minutes.

I mounted everything up and everything is running smooth.

I let the smoke out the motor on the first ride. 100v 45A. I was giving the motor the business. I came to a stop and it was billowing out smokeout of my nice big holes.

The motor pulls great. It gets up to speed pretty quickly and its almost a constant pull all the way up to a top speed I havent hit yet.

I need to program the controller to a nice desired top speed. It wont be 50mph which is what its capeable of. I mainly want to reduce the time that its pulling peak watts. It pulling peak watts through a majority of the power band. I think 35-40 mph is a nice top speed and the controller will start pulling back the amps around 25-30mph.

Only you can prevent stator scrape! Apparently when the motor is super hot I have a stator scrape problem anyone know of any solutions to fix that I know i need to rotate the covers around a bit but is there a way to speed that process up. I also think by limiting the tops speed and the duration that it pulls peak watts is a less direct approach.

I have just reprogrammed my controller for 35% for SL speed. This gives me the legal 20mph.
I programmed speed 1 to 72% this gives me a limited top speed of 40mph.
I scaled the controller back to around 35-40A. It should be a well rounded ride now.

Also the controller has a weird death sentence that sneaks up on you. If you leave the controller in SL mode via switch and you turn on the controller via ignition line on the bike will run WOT up to the max programmed SL speed without you twisting the throttle. It will run up you wall and do 360s until you turn the controller off. Start up in regular mode it operates fine and you can switch in and out of SL mode at will.

Low to mid speed the controller feel fine and smooth. After a certain throttle position it continues to accelerate but it feels rather rough. You back off the throttle it feels smooth. It doesnt feel like how it shutters in sensorless mode but like the commutation is slighly irregular. There are no amp spikes or anything. My settings are 80 Phase 30 Battery. They are in ratio and its not agressive by any means.

[Hyena]

I came to a stop and it was billowing out smokeout of my nice big holes.
The motor pulls great.

hah, it won't for long if you keep doing that! After a few episodes you'll cook off all the insulation and you'll be left with what is essentially lumps of solid copper around your stator. Back it off big fella!

[The Mighty Volt]

@IceCube:

Why are you getting smoke from your 9C at 100v and 45Amps??

45Amps seems pretty civilized in comparison to the figures I have been seeing bandied about on the forums.

Also, I feel you when you talk about re-assembling the motor wrong. I have been there where I spend weeks looking over a problem, then realize some small mistake that I made.

Best of luck with it anyways.

[Hyena]

I didn't realise the direction the stator went back in made a difference!
I've pulled several apart and never had any issues - I guess I must have fluked them all going back in the same way!

I have a GM motor that was DOA from the factory - it'd freewheel fine but stutter as soon as I put it under load. I just ran it with a sensorless controller as I couldn't be bothered opening it but that may well be the problem with it.

[icecube57]

@IceCube:

Why are you getting smoke from your 9C at 100v and 45Amps??

45Amps seems pretty civilized in comparison to the figures I have been seeing bandied about on the forums.

Also, I feel you when you talk about re-assembling the motor wrong. I have been there where I spend weeks looking over a problem, then realize some small mistake that I made.

Best of luck with it anyways.

I would like to say its normal but its the varnish/enamel burning that its dipped in. I have a lot of hills in my subdivision so instead of all the energy being turned into motion i have 3000w being turned into heat. Its being ran out of its efficiency zone and the the watts get dumped in the windings.. The hill on my street peaks over 15% grade almost 20%. Thats a tall order on any motor.

I programmed the controller to be alot nicer to the motor. The controller is actually programmed stock at 80A phase and 30A battery 1 Block Time. I just reduced the top speed so it wouldnt dump so much power into the motor for extended periods while reaching the tops speed thats over 20 seconds away. Im running 100v for the extra torque on the low end. 30-35mph is fast enough.

[John in CR]

Icey, buddy, you're killing your motor. Cooking the windings isn't a good or normal thing except for those who think burning up motors is a badge of honor.

Set the current limit much lower and still check for heat often. I tried a dual sensored/sensorless controller that didn't work and ran high currents at speed. Maybe it's making the motor fight against itself, I don't know.

Did you check no load current? That would be a start. After that, if everything is normal, then increase current gradually till the heat problem starts. FWIW, those big holes will do next to nothing as far as cooling the stator during operation, because what airflow there is will escape before flowing over the stator.

Good luck with it, and definitely make some changes if it's not already too late for the motor.

[dogman]

Sounds a lot like what I did to my 6x10 dirtbike. It was sooo fun climbing insanely steep hills with 72v 40 amps. For about 45 min...

You know those peices of string that tie the wires into the windings? burnt to a crisp.

[icecube57]

Everything isnt right and it shouldnt be happening but normal to me when you push a motor to far. I dont consider letting the smoke out a badge of honor. Even on my previous builds I shoved alot of power into it but i did show alot of concern for the heat it was producing. Its pretty much a violated virgin motor. It is to be expected for me. Look at GInDC he has a similar setup and his motor is defintely probably smoking. I smelled the windings on the motor right out of the box. He defintely smells his motor when riding. Its a risk we take when pushing high power. When I was testing it out there was alot of low speed loading mainly acceleration tests to see how much torque it did have. I took it partially up a hill a few times. Not to mention alot of regen to see how it felt. I lastly took it up the hill on my street and around the block and came back. I did that pretty agressively. All of these actions compounded and built up heat inside the motor. When the motor is operating in these conditions no where near its peak efficiency this is what happens. In the simulator on level level ground at 100% throttle Im producing/wasting 570w of heat. To get up the hill on my street it 10-13% grade peaks at 18% in less than 1/16th of a mile GPS verified. At the peak of the hill the motor is dumping 2769w into the windings at 6mph. At 44v it will stall before it reached the top of the hill. When i crested the hill and kept accelerating around the block not giving the motor any time to rest it keeps adding to the problem. The windings get hot. It burns that stator dipped coating off. It smokes less and less overtime. I did the same thing on my old golden motor When i pushed it hard. That type of riding isnt tolerated well by these motors. Dogman and Methods have been victim to failure from sustained abuse. Short bursts are ok with rest in between. If you have a truely flat area the motor can tolerate it very well. In an area like mine. You either have to be constantly moving and plan routes to where a hill is fine but it better be followed by a nice down hill or level area or otherwise the motor will overheat. The X5 is way better at taking the abuse and you never heard me complain or even feel concerned about that motor but the GM and the 9C are cousins and cant take it continuously like the clytes. They will smell bad and smoke. Im trying to find the point on the bike where im satisfied with speed and power and also make it a reliable. This bike isnt destined for street travel like the x5303 was so top end speed is not my quest. I want alot of low end torque and medium speed in the 35mph range for low speed side secondary roads. At high high unrestricted speed it will pull full amps to near top speed of 50-53mph. Thats an extremely long time for a 9C motor to sustain a 4500w. By me programming the controller to reduce the top speed it reduces the time the motor experience this power.
By me programming my controller from 100% throttle down to 73% it reduced my top speed acceleration time from 25 seconds to get to 51mph sec to 15seconds to get to 40mph. I still have full power off the line but as it approaches the top programmed speed the current tapers of 10-15mph before reaching top speed. This is me desired profile to mimic
I did test at 100v to see what type of performance it has. I will probably continue to run 100v. 66v is more appropriate for for the speed i want but 100v is appropriate for torque i want. Its easier to volt up than amp up for torque. I have drop the amps to the 35-40A range from the 50-55 the controller was sustaining. Block time is at 1 so its pretty much forced to respect the current limit. Phase and battery current is programmed to 80A Phase and 30A Battery is lower compared to 125A Phase 45A battery I would normally run.

[chroot]

Maybe 9C 9x7 isnt right type for your hilly area and you probably should have gone get 6x10 or xlyte HT3540 or xlyte 5304-05. These motors HTxx, 5404-05, and 6x10 should be handle the high temperature. Better install the temperature probe inside your motor easier for you acknowledge when it reach the exceed maximum limit temperature so you can take easy on motor to let it cool down first.

The HTxx, 5304-05 or 6x10 would take you into 30-35mph top speed with your 100v except it will gives you more torque in low end powerband.

I did test on my 9C 9x7 from work to where the place that i will moving in new place and the place is on the top of hilly. I went uphill at full WOT and my 9C motor really hot by my hand felt on the surface.

[icecube57]

Around my house, my subdivision, my neighborhood, or general city is not bike friendly as far as terrain and amenities go. I do go onto local trails, parks, and other surrounding cities to ride and its perfect for those areas. This build is solely recreation riding and extended near century excursions. I dont have to rely on this bike to do anything in my everyday life. I dont ride everyday nor will I punish this like my past few builds. Its nice to have performance on demand but I dont need this time around. Im not building an emotorcyle hotrod bike. Its more of a cruiser this time around and trust me this thread will get boring cause im not looking to break 60mph or go any faster. I will be saving for a 5304 but thats this years winter fall project.

[icecube57]

Ok so I have a nice weekend to test the controller out some more. Ive gotten up to 40mph Only because I have the controller speed limited currently. There something that feels odd past a certain throttle position and its not related to speed. It sorta feels like a duty cycle change in the controller. Also past this throttle position the controller consumption increases by 5-800w. It almost seems like its starting out sensored and switching over to sensorless past that certain throttle position like past 40-50%. It feels weird but it does continue to accelerate but the wow factor get knocked down a notch . If I throttle back it still continutes to accelerate and level off but as soon as i past that throttle position the sensation continues. It doesnt feel like its misfiring but it feels like the timing is off.

Im also puzzled on how to rotate these covers to stop the stator from scrubbing when the motor gets near that borderline hot temp to where I need to back off . It may make sense to see where the stator is scraping and dremel it down a hair.

[John in CR]

Im also puzzled on how to rotate these covers to stop the stator from scrubbing when the motor gets near that borderline hot temp to where I need to back off . It may make sense to see where the stator is scraping and dremel it down a hair.

For those following along and haven't opened their motor yet, put a mark on one cover and the magnet retaining ring, and 2 marks or some different mark on the other cover and same point on the ring before ever taking the covers off.

In your case icey, look at the bit of sealant left on the ring and each cover to try to find a shape(s) that match. If hole line up too at that point, then you can be fairly certain it is correct. Dremel isn't going to help, because the stator is rubbing the magnets. It's the holes that are in very slightly different positions relative to the axle hole. The air gap is tiny compared to how out of center some of these covers are, so it will only work with the covers on the proper side and in the proper holes. The covers on my 9x7 were out of whack by a over 1mm, but it doesn't matter as long as the covers are aligned as original.

I had to remove a lot of material to balance my covers (needed because I plan to run it at about 1500rpm), but that effort had no effect on centering relative to the axle, magnet ring, and stator.

[icecube57]

I just reconfigured my bike to a 18s 3p or 66v 15AH. I was running 24s before So I basically removed 3 packs from my battery bag and rewired it for a lower voltage. The balance of this bike feels SO much better now. Before it felt like it was back heavy.The response of the bike is where I like it to be. Acceleration is awesome The top speed is 40mph. I reprogrammed my controller with 110phase and 45A battery current. 3 On Block Time and 120% and programmed 50% for my speed limit for 20mph. So I slightly increase my amperage to make up for the wattage loss from dropping the voltage. That weird issue I explained in the previous post is pretty much gone I barely feel it if it does occur its near the very top end of speed between 35-40mph. Motor heat is greatly reduced. I did the same things I did pretty much on my maiden voyage and I didnt overheat the motor nor did the stator scrape and it was a good solid 10-15 min if rough riding.