12 x 4110 MOSFET Extreme Modder Controller LYEN Edition $129

[shocktotheweb]

Got the Lyen 12 X 4110 MOFSET controller and hgve a couple questions:

1. Lyen pre-programmed my controller for me to 48v, how can I display the current setup on my controller in the Lab Software?

2. As I understand it, if the regen is jumpered then regen works whenever I am not throttling more than the current speed of the motor. If I short the brake yellow and black, that will apply regenerative BRAKING to the moto. Is this correct?

3. Can I, using the controller software, see what the regen is set for voltage and amps?

4. What happens when the low voltage number is met?

[itchynackers]

Got the Lyen 12 X 4110 MOFSET controller and hgve a couple questions:

1. Lyen pre-programmed my controller for me to 48v, how can I display the current setup on my controller in the Lab Software?

2. As I understand it, if the regen is jumpered then regen works whenever I am not throttling more than the current speed of the motor. If I short the brake yellow and black, that will apply regenerative BRAKING to the moto. Is this correct?

3. Can I, using the controller software, see what the regen is set for voltage and amps?

4. What happens when the low voltage number is met?

1. You can't.
2. When off the throttle, it will regen down to about 14mph, then coast.
3. Not that I'm aware of. But if you hook up a Turnigy watt meter backward, you can see the regen current/volts.
4. The controller will slowly cut back current as you approach LVC. At LVC or lower, the controller does nothing.

[aaronski]

regen amps is dependant on speed. on a steep hill, my controller regens about 700 watts at 20mph, and drops to about 300 at 14mph, then coasts. that's on a 72v battery, also, it won't regen over 75 volts, with out a hardware fix.

t

[shocktotheweb]

Running 48volt SLA's... That's why I'm trying to determine amperage/voltage.

[shocktotheweb]

Because SLA's use such low amperage on charging, I'm concerned about using the regen capabilities of the controller and damaging my batteries...

[shocktotheweb]

If I short the e-brake wires from the controller, will regen braking occur? All the way to 0mph?

[amberwolf]

If I short the e-brake wires from the controller, will regen braking occur? All the way to 0mph?

Nope (to the latter part). (That was answered above (twice, I think). )

As for whether it will occur *at all*, that depends on the controller setting, as it is possible to disable regen braking, so that the ebrake only turns off the motor output and coasts.

Regarding current into your SLA on regen braking, vs charge current capability of them, what does the label on the side of each SLA list for max charge current? it's usually printed on there, along with charge voltage levels for various ways of charging them.

If you want to know the controller settings as they are now, ask Lyen what each one is set to on yours by default. There's no way to read the settings back out of it, only write them in, unfortunately.

IIRC, there is a setting in the controller software for something like EBS Limiting Voltage. If it is what I am remembering, then you set that for a max output voltage it could generate, which in turn will help limit the current into your SLA, relative to their state of charge (voltage) at that moment. Lyen would have to tell you more about that, to be sure.

[Zenid]

FYI. Part One of my blog write-up/review of the 12-FET Extreme Modder Controller Lyen Edition
http://zenid10.wordpress.com/2011/04/04 ... and-angry/

[The Mighty Volt]

I want to use a Fechter-Goodrum BMS and Regenerative braking on my set up, which is 24s A123 X5304

I have the 18 Fet variation of this controller.

AFAIK, the BMS plugs into the brake-connector of the controller.

i have the two white wires, can I wire these into a Universal Handlebar Switch for braking??? Or do I have to use the yellow/black wires of the controller.

Are there any special considerations I need to bear in mind? What happens to my battery when I regen?

I won't have a mechanical rear brake, too much effort setting it up, welding etc.

I will have a mechanical front disc brake for basic stopping needs.

Thanks.

[amberwolf]

AFAIK, the BMS plugs into the brake-connector of the controller.

Correct, if it's like my v2.6 BMS, it's output can be used to engage the ebrake to disable the controller.

BUUUUUUT: if you are using regen braking DO NOT DO THAT. It won't just disable the controller, it'll drag you to a sudden unexpected stop from whatever speed you were at, instead. Not only that, you won't even be able to pedal the bike until you turn off the controller/motor system, because it'll put all the drag it can on the motor continuing to try to brake you.

What you will want to do instead is to set up a relay or a transistor switch to the BMS output to disconnect the thin red wire from main battery power instead, so that it "turns off the ignition" of the controller instead, letting you still coast.

i have the two white wires, can I wire these into a Universal Handlebar Switch for braking??? Or do I have to use the yellow/black wires of the controller.

All the white ones do is engage or disengage regen capability. Yellow/black actually engage braking, so those need to go to your brake lever or whatever switch you are going to use to brake with.

Are there any special considerations I need to bear in mind? What happens to my battery when I regen?

It charges, assuming the BMS allows it to. That's how regen works--voltage from the motor becomes higher than that of the battery, causing current to flow into the battery and placing a mechanical load on the motor, making it slow down.

One conditions under which the BMS might not allow it to is if the battery is already fully charged, the HVC of the BMS will disable the controller, disabling regen braking, too, as soon as the regen voltage rises to or above the HVC.

I won't have a mechanical rear brake, too much effort setting it up, welding etc.

I will have a mechanical front disc brake for basic stopping needs.

Make SURE that brake can stop you completely even if the regen doesn't work at all. Regen is a complex system, requiring the motor, controller, battery, BMS, and brake switches all to work correctly over a wide voltage range. Lots of things can cause "issues" with it (but hardly ever do), and an issue at high speed where you need to stop quickly means you better have a mechanical brake that will let you do that.

[Zenid]

I bought the 12-FET version of this controller about a week ago, and with the exception of one minor gripe I've been very happy with it so far.

On my initial test drive, though, with the controller set to 50A/125A rated/phase. I noticed something odd just now and again: I found that this was if I tried to start from a dead stop - or very slow - with the throttle wide open. There would be a 'thunk' as power to the motor would cut off. It wouldn't pull power unless I opened the throttle more gradually, then fully once I was moving.

However this seemed to go away after the first journey. Yesterday, though I raised the current to 55A/135A, and the problem came back with a vengeance - clearly there is some kind of current limitation in operation here. Lyen said the controller was capable of pulling 65A continuous in its existing form, but clearly things aren't set up right or another modification needs to be made to enable this to happen.

I'm hearing lots of talk about "shunt values", and the fact that they sometimes have to be changed to enable you to draw more current. Am I going to have to make a change here too?

If so, then this doesn't sit easy with Lyen's assurance that the I can draw 65A from this controller in its current form, as that clearly does not appear to be the case...

[Lyen]

Hi Zenid,

I have sent you a PM to clarify your concerns.

Regards,
Lyen

I bought the 12-FET versiion of this controller about a week ago, and with the exception of one minor gripe I've been very happy with it so far.

On my initial test drive, though, with the controller set to 50A/125A rated/phase. I noticed something odd just now and again: I found that this was if I tried to start from a dead stop - or very slow - with the throttle wide open. There would be a 'thunk' as power to the motor would cut off. It wouldn't pull power unless I opened the throttle more gradually, then fully once I was moving.

However this seemed to go away after the first journey. Yesterday, though I raised the current to 55A/135A, and the problem came back with a vengeance - clearly there is some kind of current limitation in operation here. Lyen said the controller was capable of pulling 65A continuous in its existing form, but clearly things aren't set up right or another modification needs to be made to enable this to happen.

I'm hearing lots of talk about "shunt values", and the fact that they sometimes have to be changed to enable you to draw more current. Am I going to have to make a change here too?

If so, then this doesn't sit easy with Lyen's assurance that the I can draw 65A from this controller in its current form, as that clearly does not appear to be the case...

[icecube57]

Im going to clear a few things up for Lyen. I did some research on your scooter and there are a few details left out. Im not being a dooche but Im just helping you understand whats going on. The scooter has an unladen weight of 104kg. Before a rider is put on and before extra batteries are even put in the scooter. The 2 extra 12v 28ah batteries weigh 40lbs a piece. So you have an upgraded vehicle weight of 308lbs before you put a rider on. We are going to say you are an average 180lbs. so thats a total of 488lbs you are asking the motor to move at any given time. Thats a tall order. Im a big bloke myself at 315lbs but my bike weighs 50lbs with batts. So for me thats only 365lbs. The motor is a tiny casted mag wheel motor motor thats similar to 50cc gas scooters. The specs say that the scooter motor is rated for 1400w stock. One thing about small motors like this is that they have a very low turn and high inductance. Meaning they draw alot more current and are wound to go faster to make up for the small wheel size. So you have a "LEAD SLED" and undersized controller for the job an and wondering why you are hitting the current limit of the controller. I would have strongly advise you to upgrade to an 18fet right away. It seems like you need alot of current to feed you hungry motor and the 12fet isnt up to the job in its stock condition it has to be really beefed up. It seems like the performance you are after and the motor you have... you are going to need 75-100A to get the going for a dead stop without it hitting the current limit of the controller. One thing about these low turn motors is they arent very forgiving. They only think of themselves in operation. They want all the current they can take and dont care if the controller can keep pace with it or not. Everything else will die before the motor will. Ive ran a low turn count motor and its a blast when fed properly but its a pain in the ass and its a costly road to walk to find that butterzone to where you and the motor is happy.


Oh yeah.... keep playing around and bumping the current limit up you will surely kill your controller. I personally dont go above 45-125 myself. One thing that may save you from purchasing a new controller is Block Time in the Parameter Settings Program. Maybe increasing it to 3 seconds will allow the controller to dump enough current into the motor to get you off the line. Block Time is basically a window of a few seconds to where the motor is allowed to draw whatever current it needs to get going... during this time the controller is sorta dazed and its severely raped in the process.

It snaps out of it starts regulating the current down near the programmed value. Due to the characteristics of you motor and its selfish hoarding mentality its advised you leave your BlockTime at 1 but if you are risky... bump it up to 3 you "should" be ok. If you are stupid take it to 5 or higher and see what happens. I bet you will be back on here so fast blaming everyone else for your misfortune. =P I gave you warning.

[aaronski]

my Lyen 12 fet is set to 65/65, with no issues. when I set the phase currents that high I also see it cutting out to protect the controller if I floor it from a dead stop. I actually have it on my "to Do" list to try every phase setting at 65 amp battery settings and see where the limits are. With any luck I'll have that info on Saturday to give everyone a feel for where this controller freaks out.

also, thanks for the Block time info. if it's unlimited, won't it trip just like it does when phase amps are set too high?

[icecube57]

Ive been meaning to try out equal phase and battery current. I think you are missing out a little on torque by setting your phase that low. You will be suprise at the increase. But stock.... 120A phase is about high as I will go and maybe 50-60A on the battery.

The glorious thing about Block Time is that it basically shuts off the protection temporarily during hard launch/acceleration for a certain amount of seconds that you program. But this can be dangerous because you can blow mosfets doing this paired with the wrong motor. I would play around with higher values on a 5304 5305 or a 6x10 or 5x12 9C only because the resistance and High BEMF of those motors quickly choke the amps down but I wouldnt do it on a 5302 or a 5303 or a 12x5 or 10x6 9C you rick blowing your controller because they will request high phase current all the way to top speed because of their low resistance and the lack of the ability to generate sufficent BEMF....with low turn count the controller almost sees them as a dead short and they are VERY hard on controllers.

The controller can peak for a short time or in burst but it cant sustain it.

[Zenid]

I would have strongly advise you to upgrade to an 18fet right away. It seems like you need alot of current to feed you hungry motor and the 12fet isnt up to the job in its stock condition it has to be really beefed up. It seems like the performance you are after and the motor you have... you are going to need 75-100A to get the going for a dead stop without it hitting the current limit of the controller. One thing about these low turn motors is they arent very forgiving. They only think of themselves in operation. They want all the current they can take and dont care if the controller can keep pace with it or not. Everything else will die before the motor will. Ive ran a low turn count motor and its a blast when fed properly but its a pain in the ass and its a costly road to walk to find that butterzone to where you and the motor is happy.
{...} Oh yeah.... keep playing around and bumping the current limit up you will surely kill your controller. I personally dont go above 45-125 myself.

Thanks for the feedback and the useful info on block times. However the reason I got the version of this controller, and that Lyen recommends it is because it is well suited to this type of bike, and is the exact type that many other owners have upgraded to. I'm well aware of the issues of current limitation, which is why I opted for this IRFB4110 12-FET one by Lyen, who said initially that this is capable in its 'factory form' of pulling 65A continuous. He's since revised this to more like 60-65A, but with modifications (reinforcing the tracks and so forth) it's capable of handling up to 100A at 100V, according to the blurb.

The Ego Scooter and other lookalikes can run fine on as little as just 35A, but most of us aren't happy with the sluggish acceleration and low speeds so make various mods like this to make them better. Lyen's made some helpful suggestions about why I'm getting this dickiness with the throttle on higher settings, and why it stutters or triggers the cut-out, so I'll look into them. But it is starting to look like I might well have to modify the shunt as others have done to 'trick' the board into giving more power if I want to push the motor any harder. I'm just interested in exploring the limits of the performance of my bike, and identifying the weak links in the system.

The main weak-link that we've identified is with the phase-wires, which are rather thin on the 1400W motors many of us have and tend to get hot when we ramp up the current, - we therefore keep a close eye on these as we experiment with uprated settings/mods on controllers. I was interested with what you were saying about the motors themselves being capable of handling whatever we can throw at them, as that would seem to support what many of us are considering doing, - that is cracking open the hub motor and upgrading the phase wires to a higher capacity AWG rating.

No, I'm not going to come back and start blaming people for a wrecked controller. I'm very careful with testing and modding these things, and do so with extreme caution and only after getting a range of opinions and advice.

And don't worry. I don't think it's 'being a douche' at all for you to offer your opinion. I welcome the feedback, and any input and new info is always appreciated, thanks!

[Zenid]

my Lyen 12 fet is set to 65/65, with no issues. when I set the phase currents that high I also see it cutting out to protect the controller if I floor it from a dead stop. I actually have it on my "to Do" list to try every phase setting at 65 amp battery settings and see where the limits are. With any luck I'll have that info on Saturday to give everyone a feel for where this controller freaks out.

also, thanks for the Block time info. if it's unlimited, won't it trip just like it does when phase amps are set too high?

You're using 65A for both rated AND phase current? Everybody else I know is using a phase current of around 2.5 times the rated current (such as 30/75A, 50/125A etc.). How do we decide what multiple to use, and with what kind of motor? Is it just trial and error, or is there some reasoning behind this multiple. Nobody I've asked seems to understand why this figure (2.5) is used and what can happen if others are used instead, except that there can be 'odd effects'...

[aaronski]

You're using 65A for both rated AND phase current? Everybody else I know is using a phase current of around 2.5 times the rated current (such as 30/75A, 50/125A etc.). How do we decide what multiple to use, and with what kind of motor? Is it just trial and error, or is there some reasoning behind this multiple. Nobody I've asked seems to understand why this figure (2.5) is used and what can happen if others are used instead, except that there can be 'odd effects'...

Yes, currently 65/65 as a quick fix for the cutout issue on my 26" BMC v2 motor. and yes, the low end torque is awful untill around 5mph. I really need to fix it.
It cut my startup watts from 5k down to 2k, rising to three at around 10mph, then dropping back down again.

I should have some hard numbers when I get some time to fiddle with it later this weekend. Or perhaps I'll ride to work tomorrow/friday at 95/125 and compare them all.

[icekreme1002]

I have recently been discussing this ratio with Lyen for my 18fet/9c combo. I am still in newb territory with all this but from my understanding from 2.3-2.6 ratio makes sense.
Here is Lyens explanation to me via email....
"The way to explain the ratio in plain English is pulse-width modulation current output to the motor is not the same as the battery current. It is kind of a voltage converter thing that convert from 12v to 24v as an example. But it inverts in current, not voltage. Although you can set it to 50/150 or more but the difference is very minor because the the controller need to ask for certain amount of current from the battery in order to give X amount of maximum current output to the motor. You can try 50/150 or 180 and see what I mean. Another example I can think of in plain English is you try to borrow money to buy a $10000 car from the bank. But the bank requires you to put at least $3000 down payment in order for them lend you $7000."

So basically you can set phase to a really high number, but if the controller cant get what it needs from the battery setting it higher wont make a difference.

The 2.3-2.6 ratio represents the range where battery amps will be able to provide what the motor is demanding in phase amps.
Hopefully that helped some other new kids like me

[bmxed]

There would be a 'thunk' as power to the motor would cut off. It wouldn't pull power unless I opened the throttle more gradually, then fully once I was moving.

However this seemed to go away after the first journey. Yesterday, though I raised the current to 55A/135A, and the problem came back with a vengeance - clearly there is some kind of current limitation in operation here. Lyen said the controller was capable of pulling 65A continuous in its existing form, but clearly things aren't set up right or another modification needs to be made to enable this to happen.

Hi Zenid,
This is probably no fault of the Lyen controller. See if you have a BMS in your battery pack and what the current rating is. It might be sensing an over-current condition and is shutting down to prevent damage to the battery.

[bigbore]

In my location e-bikes must go lower 25km/h (15,5mph) when assisted by the motor and the rider must pedal if he wants to be assisted by the motor or in other words the motor must assist the rider only if he is pedaling and must stop the assistance at the speed of 25km/h.

I would like to know from you if is possible with your controller to build a dual mode e-bike


I need a standard mode running within laws in case you are catched by the cops and a "turbo" mode with a speed of 55-65 Km/h. The standard mode must be switched very quickly and not to be reversed in case you are got by the cops while running a "little fast". I want a jumper that I can pull and hide in my trouser pocket so without the jumper the bike runs at 15mph and the motor is powered only if the pedals are spinning.
How does the controller recognize the spinning pedals? Do I need a sensor?

Please let me know if it's possible.
Regards, Simone.

[dodjob]

Hi bigbore,
The only solution I know is to use a Cycle Analyst and set it to 25Km/h. Then you install a switch on the override channel. This means that when the switch is close the CA will override the throttle signal and cut the acceleration at 25Km/h. When the switch is open, nobody interfer with you and the controller you can drive as fast as you want
There is a thread somewhere If you search a little you'll find it
Gruß,
H.

*edit* yeah and the pedal sensor has to remain active...

[Zenid]

Hi Zenid,
This is probably no fault of the Lyen controller. See if you have a BMS in your battery pack and what the current rating is. It might be sensing an over-current condition and is shutting down to prevent damage to the battery.

Hi bmxed. I am not running off a lithium pack yet. My bank is an SLA one, so there is no BMS acting as intermediary. It is therefore the controller cutting off power - most probably due to the way it is set up. Lyen has been very helpful in suggesting some things I could change in the settings, like specifying 120 degree hall sensors.

Here's a picture of my 'engine' BTW. I have 170A welding cable connecting my battery bank so clearly there's no bottle neck there...:



It is also possible that the faster drain is hard for my SLAs to keep up with, and that the voltage drop as I draw current under high load is simply triggering the lvc, so I can try tinkering with that too (though I am surprised that the lvc would response to very transient 'dips' of). Another possibility is that the high current spike is triggering the controller's safety cut-off.

Either way, it's just a case of tinkering with it until I find the right combination of settings. I'm otherwise perfectly happy with the controller, which has greatly improved the power I can get out of my bike. I just like to tinker to see if I can push the envelope just a little further...

What I'm looking at now, is the trick of reprogramming the board as a 218 instead of a 212, to 'fool' the controller into pulling more power. Am I right in thinking that I would have to raise my current settings by a third to compensate for this, or do I LOWER them by a third. I have seen contradictary information on this point, and don't want to make a mistake here and blow up my FETs

What does everyone think? Is it just a really bad idea to do this without modifying the shunt or reinforcing the tracks? And how do I modify the shunt in the way people are talking about to raise the current it can draw? Lyen gave me a link, but it spoke of modding power-side resistors, and all I have on my board are shunts like this:
http://zenid10.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/p1020162.jpg

What's the difference between these two methods (software versus hardware) of upping the current limit, and how is this accomplished on this board? Any help and advice here greatly appreciated. I'm not about chance anything unless I'm absolutely sure that I know what I'm doing...

[skeetab5780]

i can probably guarantee this is not your issue, but even if your cable is rated at 170Amps it looks like your still using 30Amp rated crimp-on style ring/fork terminals on all of your phase wires. It looks nice and clean, but they're rated for a reason.

hook a Voltage meter up to your SLA bank while ur riding it, and within 1 minute you'll know if its voltage sag causing the problem or not. Process of elimination FTW.

if its not the Voltage sag the next bet is hitting the Max Amp setting on the controller, from a stand-still moving all that weight
can spike a ridiculous amount of Amperage.

I have the Lyen 72v 30A controller and have not had an issue like this..but i also ride a converted mountain bike and im not that heavy (180lb)

Good luck trouble-shooting your issue! keep us posted on the solution.

[icecube57]

You go down in controller size to bump up the current. Your controller needs the power traces reinforced before you can do something like this. It can boost you current by almost double. I had a reinforced 12 fet running a 5303 at 66v and 45A and it still got hot enough to melt the solder on the board. I still suggest you get an 18fet. I doubt you pulling enough current to cause enough sag to trip the lvc although the symptoms you list do suggest that. We really need voltage under load of your pack and then on a per battery before we can rule that out. I still think its a low turn motor that just sucking alot of current. JOHNINCR can give you some insight on this. The only thing you can Really do is go big or go home.

This isnt going to end well for you. You insist on pushing the boundary limits of the controller.... Even with my 5303 which is a very hard motor to drive I didnt have overcurrent issues with it cutting out but it did blow mosfets even on an 18fet. You keep bumping the current and trying to get more amps out of a stock unit without beefing it up it will end in a FAIL. Controllers are expensive and in your case LYEN is not local enough for you to send it to him for repair.