E-bike competition rules?

[TylerDurden]

Have a clear cut set of rules under 40 kilo working pedals must be able to be pedal a lap by the rider (if he is physically able) and it will be the easiset way to keep the bikes 'bicycle-like' JM2C

Waivers will be available, bribes get special consideration.

[amberwolf]

The pedaling a defined distance might be better than "functional pedals". "Functional pedals" exist on those faux-scooter-bikes that couldn't be pedaled up a loading-dock ramp. If an unpowered distance is thoughtfully determined, the weight issue solves itself: a bike too heavy to make it faster than a walker is disq'd. A "diefined distance" can cover events like tours.

As long as the pedalling lap test can be done by someone other than the rider/builder that will be running it motorized.

For instance, I couldn't possibly pedal my bikes like CrazyBike2 without the motor assistance; even before my recent injury my knees hurt so much trying to startup in a high enough gear that I won't just fall over while getting going that I'd probably pass out at the start line.

Even wtihtout the motor and batteries on it, it's too heavy for me to do that because I can't stand on the pedals like I could on an upright, and essentially pedal without bending my knees. Even on my uprights I can barely get them started without falling over (and sometimes I still do fall over), without motor assistance.

But I can ride ti fine if I don't have to pedal.

There are others even worse off than me, like AussieJester, who wouldn't be able to pedal his bikes around at all AFAIK, with or without the motor assistance.

[TylerDurden]

As long as the pedalling lap test can be done by someone other than the rider/builder that will be running it motorized.

Sure, it's a test of the bike's qualification, not the pilot's.

[LegendLength]

Right, and the airplane motors you used aren't bike components

yes even if that excluds "airplane motors"...Jesus John, are you looking for a fight?

I think John has a good point. The whole discussion is theoretical anyway because it seems like it'll be a while before class rules are needed in practice. But it's the type of argument that needs to be sorted through thoroughly with every point of view considered.

I think whatever is implemented it needs to be fair and simple, in that order. With simplicity being very important.

The first change would have to be separating electric bikes from gassers. Not just because paul won it but because the two types are completely different. You can always have an unlimited event at the end to keep the spirit of the death race.

[TylerDurden]

I think John has a good point. The whole discussion is theoretical anyway because it seems like it'll be a while before class rules are needed in practice. But it's the type of argument that needs to be sorted through thoroughly with every point of view considered.

I think whatever is implemented it needs to be fair and simple, in that order. With simplicity being very important.

The first change would have to be separating electric bikes from gassers. Not just because paul won it but because the two types are completely different. You can always have an unlimited event at the end to keep the spirit of the death race.

I think we're there already. All the reasons for segregation are happening.

1).
Gassers are not completely different from leckys (electrics), but each has clear strengths which can bias a race:
Gassers have near unlimited range, so doubling the distance can wipe the leckys.
Leckys have instant torque, so events like the 12-lap are gonna kill gassers.

2).
Speeds of hot bikes and duffers are getting too far apart to be safe:
Most the riders at the recent DR could keep clear of each other; but it's only gonna get worse because it's gonna keep getting faster.

3).
The more the merrier:
One big clusterfook of everything on the track at the same time will be more of a nuisance than an improvement. Having classes makes contests worrthwhile ... a mismatched event is no fun for anybody.

[John in CR]

Right, and the airplane motors you used aren't bike components

yes even if that excluds "airplane motors"...Jesus John, are you looking for a fight?

No. You singled me out for no good reason, and I called you on it.

All the rules talk is pointless, because in the long run the limitation will have to be based on either power input or power output, since there's no displacement to measure to go by like with ICE, and incredible power is becoming available in such small motors. It doesn't matter if a 5kw motor weighs 3 pounds or 20. The one running the bigger motor is penalizing themselves with a lower power to weight ratio. At this point, any rule that ends up excluding someone running lead batteries or hub motors is just plain stupid.

In the meantime it's more about fun, exposure, and accessibility, so the fewer rules, the better. The Death Race got along just fine with little to no rules, and no one showed up with a motorcycle with pedals, because doing so would just result in everyone saying no you can't race.

It's only natural that the guys into racing before want to take it more seriously, but it's not yet time for that, though being so early I think Thud showing up with eye opening performance that outclassed the field, even if it was only in practice, is a good thing for electrics, because it will start guys thinking electric who might not otherwise.

[TylerDurden]

ll the rules talk is pointless...<snip> The Death Race got along just fine with little to no rules, and no one showed up with a motorcycle with pedals, because doing so would just result in everyone saying no you can't race.

Both Thud and Luke had moto power... they just shot their wads before the finish line. If they had been in the main with their primary bikes, they would have left everyone three laps behind.

It ain't a race if no-one is even close.

In just over a week, Thud will bring the point home.

[Alan B]

The only rule for ICE is 49cc, as I understand it. Perhaps the only rule for electric should be 9.9kw input power. Keep it simple.

[spinningmagnets]

I'd like to suggest that we ponder carefully the likely results (law of unintended consequences) of any rule thats implemented. Keep it fun and people will show up. I wouldn't worry too much about many rules until it starts to get crowded (too many bikes show up), then find some type of logical grouping split.

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Rather than the first split being electric/gasser, I'd recommend it be between the fastest half of the pack, and the slowest half. Its for the same reason that we have heats. You want the actual race to have the fastest competitors near the front and the slowest near the back. This way the bikes spread-out early and it becomes a fun race.

Keeping the fast gassers and the fast electrics together for a few more years, its good for the sport, good for competition, and good for publicity.

The very advanced mid-engine supercharged V-16 Auto-Union/Porsche car from the 1930's was voluntarily pulled from competing in the Mille-Miglia when it came around a corner so fast that it crashed into the rear of a slow Alfa-Romeo (fast and slow cars raced together on public Italian highways). "...Herrmann had a remarkable race in 1954, when the gates on a railroad crossing were lowered at the last moment before the fast train to Rome passed. Driving a very low Porsche 550 Spyder, Herrmann decided it was too late for a brake attempt anyway, and he barely passed under the bar and before the train..."

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I often feel that the fewer rules the better, but concerning a weight limit... sooner or later, some @$$wipe will weld a BB and working chain to a real 49cc motorcycle with a 5-speed transmission or even a Brammo E-motorcycle. If it doesn't violate the rules, you have to let it run. Rules should anticipate cheaters. Google Smokey Yunick and NASCAR cheating.

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The 1973 Can-Am had almost no restrictions, and Porsche decided to give its team a blank check. The Porsche 917/30 was so far ahead of the other teams, people stopped watching and the series ended (First place, second, and third is Porsche...again). The Death-race is a few years away from someone with a fat wallet making it boring, but...keep it in mind?

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Gasser-bikes and electric can both benefit from a transmission (Nexus, Thuds, etc) so the rules should continue to allow them so we can all see what lasts under abuse, and what DNFs. (If the NuVinci had been a mid-trans with a reduction instead of under heavy torque-load in the hub of the wheel, I think it might have run well)

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If power is ever discussed for separating some classes, one class should definitely be limited to 72V nominal. Real people can afford a pretty fast E-bike using available components (as PaulD has shown!). I want to see what LFP and Thud would try if one of their entries is limited to 72V. Thats information the E-bike world could really use. It will lead to motor-cooling and controller-cooling advances. Thud and LFP could each bring one bike with two available power systems, so they could run in two classes.

[TylerDurden]

Rather than the first split being electric/gasser, I'd recommend it be between the fastest half of the pack, and the slowest half. Its for the same reason that we have heats. You want the actual race to have the fastest competitors near the front and the slowest near the back. This way the bikes spread-out early and it becomes a fun race.

Keeping the fast gassers and the fast electrics together for a few more years, its good for the sport, good for competition, and good for publicity.

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If power is ever discussed for separating some classes, one class should definitely be limited to 72V nominal. Real people can afford a pretty fast E-bike using available components (as PaulD has shown!). I want to see what LFP and Thud would try if one of their entries is limited to 72V. Thats information the E-bike world could really use. It will lead to motor-cooling and controller-cooling advances. Thud and LFP could each bring one bike with two available power systems, so they could run in two classes.

Very good points.

[John in CR]

ll the rules talk is pointless...<snip> The Death Race got along just fine with little to no rules, and no one showed up with a motorcycle with pedals, because doing so would just result in everyone saying no you can't race.

Both Thud and Luke had moto power... they just shot their wads before the finish line. If they had been in the main with their primary bikes, they would have left everyone three laps behind.

It ain't a race if no-one is even close.

Definitely. Hopefully it becomes popular enough for there to be classes so there's some good racing for guys like Luke and Thud, et al who want to push the performance envelope. I'd be more than content to race in the scooter category, because I'm not really interested in riding faster than I already do.

[Thud]

very good points in the above few posts.

TD:

In just over a week, Thud will bring the point home.

Apreciate the confidence...but a wide open oval against 75cc mopeds is another level altogether.

Spin, I was only running a lowly 12s (44.4v nom) in Toucson.

John summed this up elloquently:

At this point, any rule that ends up excluding someone running lead batteries or hub motors is just plain stupid.
In the meantime it's more about fun, exposure, and accessibility, so the fewer rules, the better. The Death Race got along just fine with little to no rules, and no one showed up with a motorcycle with pedals, because doing so would just result in everyone saying no you can't race.

the race organizers made it clear that they would not allow internal transmision "motorcycle" engines bolted to bike frames..they waffled about letting Morini's run & be scored...but encouraged them to participate. ultimatly it was the morini's & ellectrics leading the whole way.

[liveforphysics]

The g8055 sevcon will be the controller for my next race.

http://www.sevcon.com/PDFs/G80%20Datash ... 01109B.pdf


I'm going to be running a pair of the CA-120 RC plane motors locked mechanically in sync, and wired in series.

Should be good for ~>20bhp, and perhaps 35bhp burst.


This is how EV's grow and develop.

The last possible thing we need to be doing is discouraging people from trying to push the limits and develop at a stage so early in the infancy of EV motorsports.

I think the example of the Porsche 917 is perfect. Wrecked Can-Am racing? Yup. But what did that development do for all cars world wide? Better aerodynamics and fuel economy trickled into all cars, better brake technology trickled into all cars, and engine development improved in all Porsche engines (and all the other companies reverse-engineering the port design etc).

Only a tiny handful of people ever drove a 917, and there was no need on earth for a car like the 917, yet, everyone of us who has ever been in a modern car has benefited in various ways from the developmental building-blocks and innovation the Porsche 917 program created that was incorporated into all later vehicle designs. Your mother-in-law's minivan may have a couple MPG worse fuel economy from delayed automotive aerodynamic testing research had the 917 not been created, etc etc.

Even safety, like brake pad materials and fluids that help keep your family safer in braking situations trickled down from somebody trying to 'cheat' a competitive edge in some form of racing. Engine in your honda gets 100,000-200,000miles with no maintenance not because it made sense for the mfg to try to make a commuter car engine that robust, but because the racing efforts that needed to survive 300miles of extreme racing operation naturally left you with an engine that lasts hundreds of thousands of miles of normal driving (as an example, the type-R rod bearing shell/alloy design.) They had to innovate to be capable of finishing an endurance race. It turned out, when they put that technology into the street car engines, it essentially just eliminated that whole failure mode for Honda street cars. Your grandma is less-likely to be stranded on a drive cross-country due to some crazy bastard wanting to thrash every last ounce from a road-racing CRX 20 years ago.


Pushing extremes is nearly the ONLY way big development happens. The reasonable, logical, responsible approaches make tiny incremental steps. The big stuff comes from the nutters.

[TylerDurden]

The last possible thing we need to be doing is discouraging people from trying to push the limits and develop at a stage so early in the infancy of EV motorsports.
<snip>

Pushing extremes is nearly the ONLY way big development happens. The reasonable, logical, responsible approaches make tiny incremental steps. The big stuff comes from the nutters.

I wouldn't disagree with the above...

I would suggest that e-bikes should not be lumped together with e-motos; in the same manner that motorized-bikes (gassers) are not lumped together with motorcycles.

Ya gotta draw the line somewhere.

Some manner of segregation will let e-bikers compete against each other and let the nutters do the same.

[Arlo1]

Its this simple....
If you can peddle it faster then a normal person can walk it passes.
That rule alone covers so so so many problems.
Have any of you tried to peddle a motorcycle?? If it weighs to much you wont be able to peddle it fast enough to beat a person at wlking speed.

otherwise the $2000 limit will cover the dude with the fat wallet.
I will buy lukes winning $10,000 bike for $1999 And win the next race or sell it back to him for 8000

[liveforphysics]

How about this. the race starts, and the first lap is no-power assist allowed.

If you have a motorcycle with pedals, you're going to have to start out half a lap or whatever, and way out of breath behind the guys with true e-bicycles.

This also naturally creates a little rider power to weight balance as well.


However, this rule would make it so PaulD just stomps us even harder. Lol
That guy is an animal on the pedals, and had a feather light true bicycle.

[spinningmagnets]

I would like to suggest that a claimer rule is something we shouldn't worry about until a single guy dominates first place for 3 years in a row. At this early stage, a claimer rule (one possible example: the names of 3rd, 4th, and 5th place having their names drawn, and the drawn name gets the option to purchase one of the 1st/2nd/3rd-place bikes for $300, the remaining 2 drawn names, in order, get second and third choice for the remaining two placed bikes), might keep some of the possible contestants away, since they may only own one E-bike that they paid $2000 for.

There is a time and place for a claimer rule, but I feel that for us it should be later rather than sooner.

Electrics and gassers will separate soon enough on their own, when enough bikes show up that the race is too crowded. I'll bet anyone a dollar that next year, you will see a lot more Morinis, and definitely some with transmissions of whatever type that are allowed. I am certain that Thuds beefy 2-speed trans and him doing wheelies opened a LOT of eyes. The gassers want revenge, and thats a good thing.

Dual front discs allow you to get closer to the curve before braking, gotta have those, and seeing the different ways where everyone got theirs is good for the E-bike world.

Thud, I'm glad you showed whats possible with ONLY 44V, I suggested a ceiling of 72V because next year is a whole new ballgame, and a couple guys might dominate with 100V. I think it would be awesome if your 2-speed at 44V beat a 72V with no trans, but finding out what a winning 100V bike looks like, doesnt really help the average guy to get his foot in the door and have some fun competing.

Since PaulD won with a single motor using 72V and an affordable 12-FET, a LOT of guys must be saying to them selves, "hell,...even I could put together one of those". But if there isn't some type of ceiling set now, a lot of guys will stay away, since it can be assumed that next year will be even more exotic (I had never heard of PaulD before, so, a lot of guys are watching but not posting yet).

I'm guessing most of the gassers don't know enough about the E-bikes to be able to define a reasonable type of framework, its up to us to set realistic limits for the electric side (if any).

[Arlo1]

That still blows goats for the hub motor guys

[liveforphysics]

and the drawn name gets the option to purchase one of the 1st/2nd/3rd-place bikes for $300, the remaining 2 drawn names, in order, get second and third choice for the remaining two placed bikes)

My controller is $950usd. My battery is $1,100.
I would not enter an event with a $300 claimer option.

Electrics and gassers will separate soon enough on their own, when enough bikes show up that the race is too crowded.

The whole part that inspires the very fast ebike development is taking on the fastest gassers.
If we couldn't run head-to-head, it just wouldn't have the same appeal. I want the gassers to work on development and power and chassis and brakes and come back with bigger better badder things than ever before, and we do the same in response. Both of us will only benefit from it.

In drag racing, the biggest most epic events that everyone makes the biggest commitment and works the hardest for at the Import vs Domestic events. It naturally forms a pair of teams, the import guys all work together in an amazing show of comradery, as do the domestic guys, and the natural division adds lots of excitement and pseudo-value to the events and races. No import-only or domestic-only events are ever as passionate and emotional and intense as import-vs-domestic events.

Since PaulD won with a single motor using 72V and an affordable 12-FET, a LOT of guys must be saying to them selves, "hell,...even I could put together one of those". But if there isn't some type of ceiling set now, a lot of guys will stay away, since it can be assumed that next year will be even more exotic (I had never heard of PaulD before, so, a lot of guys are watching but not posting yet).

Since PaulD won with a $100 controller, $100 motor, and a DIY frame, it seems perhaps we're working hard to find a solution to a non-existent problem.

[Ykick]

'hope this isn't too far off topic but I'm trying to figure out why they feel the need to change rules? I understand there were about 70 bikes 2010 down to about 30 or so this year? That's including at least 4-5 more eBikes this year. 'seems like a large drop in participation.

WTF is really going here? Is it the economy? Bad timing? Perhaps the Morini's have chilled casual participants more than we realize? Do organizers feel rule tweaking may attract more participation? Weird...

[Arlo1]

Luke is hooked and I absolutly love seeing him try.....
But for the couple years I have known him I have knoticed one thing about his competiveness..... he almost panics and trys to hard over does it with amps or N20 or what ever he can and well..... I love it.. I wished I was there to race more then anything in the world but I also wish I was there to help my buddy luke that would have been so so fun scrambling in the pits to get him going on something again.

So in short you all can relax, luke wont show up and dominate he will just blow up again...
Sorry bro just had to point out the obvious

[TylerDurden]

Defining working pedals: faster than a healthy person can walk 100yrds. = <1min.

Easy & fast to check: 1min countdown timer... your unpowered bike is past the line before the buzzer or it classes moto.

[Arlo1]

Defining working pedals: faster than a healthy person can walk 100yrds. = <1min.

Easy & fast to check: 1min countdown timer... your unpowered bike is past the line before the buzzer or it classes moto.

I think their rules were faster then one person could walk a lap....
That would be parfact.
Have a dude walk a lap and the bike with rider in question ride a lap by peddle power at the same time....
The rc motor guy will love it if they have a one way clutch or if they can disengauge the motor.
The hub guys whill barely get by because it sucks peddling my bmx.... But I can do a lap...

[TylerDurden]

Defining working pedals: faster than a healthy person can walk 100yrds. = <1min.

Easy & fast to check: 1min countdown timer... your unpowered bike is past the line before the buzzer or it classes moto.

I think their rules were faster then one person could walk a lap....

I extrapolated that to be more universal. Walking speed is walking speed: ~3mph.

It should just be sustained for a reasonable distance. 100yrds only takes a minute and should do the job.

Works for tour/rally type of events too.

[Arlo1]

Yup id say thats good enough. How many people can Peddle a 400 lb motorcycle that far that fast???