E-bike competition rules?

[TylerDurden]

How many people can Peddle a 400 lb motorcycle that far that fast???

The entertainment factor has potential.

[Alan B]

Just make everyone pedal the first 100 meters of the race. Very entertaining and not so time consuming as to skew the whole race to super athletes.

[Alan B]

How much do the gas motor bicycles weigh?

I see one site says 2 stroke motor adds 18 pounds.

[liveforphysics]

How much do the gas motor bicycles weigh?

I see one site says 2 stroke motor adds 18 pounds.

Maybe 18lbs as a total system.

[TylerDurden]

Just make everyone pedal the first 100 meters of the race.

Hard to verify power is switched off... hubbies are near silent.

A qualifying 100m before the actual race would allow mains to be disconnected.

[TylerDurden]

Classes based on claim?

$300
$600
$1000
$1500
$2000
No claim = unlimited... Nutters Ball.

You can race in any class... your choice:
- Cheap bikes can run with the bigger dogs, but run the risk of total humiliation.
- Big dogs can run with the mutts, but run the risk of being bought out cheap.

To prevent shills (as per Arlo's example above), submitted claims on bikes would be drawn at random.

[spinningmagnets]

I agree with Luke that right now...any type of claiming rule would be disastrous, since we still don't have enough people showing up. There is a time and place for those types of rules. The details of the rule can be adjusted and fine tuned ($1000 would be more realistic), but I only added that sentence to explain it to some of the readers who may not be familiar with claimer rules.

Thud, one of the reasons I mentioned 72V is that once someone sees what you and LFP had, then the following year, I'd say 72V is a minimum set-up to even consider coming to the race. Right now there has to be a dozen PaulD's around the US who just found out about this, and they might participate if they felt they had a chance at one of the top 3 slots.

Too many rules would be bad, but...with no limits at all, this could get pretty crazy pretty fast...and it wouldn't grow the way it needs to.

[TylerDurden]

I agree with Luke that right now...any type of claiming rule would be disastrous, since we still don't have enough people showing up. There is a time and place for those types of rules. The details of the rule can be adjusted and fine tuned ($1000 would be more realistic), but I only added that sentence to explain it to some of the readers who may not be familiar with claimer rules.

So long as you have an unlimited class (high or no claim), the whackos can have at it.

The claimer classes give the lower-end bikes a chance to race without the ringers.

You want both:
- Without unlimited (or high claimer), the hotrods will bail.
- Without limited classes the low-end bikes will bail.

With both, everyone has a chance to actually race against similar sleds.

[liveforphysics]

Luke is hooked and I absolutly love seeing him try.....
But for the couple years I have known him I have knoticed one thing about his competiveness..... he almost panics and trys to hard over does it with amps or N20 or what ever he can and well..... I love it.. I wished I was there to race more then anything in the world but I also wish I was there to help my buddy luke that would have been so so fun scrambling in the pits to get him going on something again.

So in short you all can relax, luke wont show up and dominate he will just blow up again...
Sorry bro just had to point out the obvious

I must admit, looking back at my past history, you've got a point. Every setup for every event I enter is "go-or-blow". More often than not, I get end up with the "blow" result than the "go" result...

[torqueon]

Luke i have read many of your threads, and all make since to me and many others. You know a lot more than most,. as for myself, I get the laws of some physics enough to get in or stay out of trouble, L O L You on the other hand Know it well. Stay in the box of physics, as you do here on the great E sphere.
Luke the force is with you ! Relax and bring it,

[John in CR]

Enough racers to have classes solves everything. Until then rules solve a problem that doesn't exist, and will have unintended consequences. Since they are bikes, pedals make sense. Maybe tweak that single rule with a change to "useful pedals" instead of "functional pedals". ie at a minimum, a way to get to the finish line if you run out of juice or break down.

At some point in the future there's simply no way to get around rules about either power or speed, so plan how to do that (weight doesn't work). Claimer prices is an interesting and potentially effective equalizer, but as Luke and others point out it would have a stifling effect on innovation that we want to avoid.

[TylerDurden]

Enough racers to have classes solves everything. Until then rules solve a problem that doesn't exist, and will have unintended consequences.

The last iteration I offered seems to have the bases covered. Pick it apart.

Pedals: 100m in <1min.

Classes:
$300
$600
$1000
$1500
$2000
Unlimited (no claimer)

You can race in any class... your choice:
- Cheap bikes can run with the bigger dogs, but run the risk of total humiliation.
- Big dogs can run with the mutts, but run the risk of being bought out cheap.

To prevent shills (as per Arlo's example above), submitted claims on bikes would be drawn at random.

Now, let's say you wanna have a minimum of six racers per class, but there are only four bikes signed-up for the 1K... any one of the four can choose to move up or down: Move down means you might win, but be bought. Move up means you may get an asswhippin.


******
"Solving problems that don't exist yet" is pure sophistry. We have all manner of builders/riders. Let's plan, so more folks can have a blast.

[Evoforce]

I haven't read this entire thread yet but from reading the first page....No one should be thinking about making rules untill they have participated in at least one race. With e-bike racing being in it's infancy, and needing more people involved, no more rules please! We are racing to have fun and not as a profession. Untill there is big prize money involved, let all race and have fun. There will be a day when more rules are needed but that day is not here yet...and may not be for some time...

[John in CR]

"Solving problems that don't exist yet" is pure sophistry. We have all manner of builders/riders. Let's plan, so more folks can have a blast.

Sophistry? Really? What is the existing problem? Surely you're not suggesting some intent to deceive. There are foreseeable issues, which having classes solves. At first two classes, for fun and unlimited, is probably enough.

Since it's planning, why even exclude emotos? The more inclusive, the better. They just need their own class(es).

If popularity really gains traction and competition is serious, then it's gotta be power and/or speed limits. Peak power out of the battery makes the most sense to me, because it allows room for efficiency and weight advancements. Plus it's easily policed using a standard device placed in line with the battery of each bike before each race. Racers need only to include some standard connectors in their wiring.

I don't believe pedaling a distance will work as any kind of test. Look at what cargo bikes can carry? Despite the bill of goods that pedalists have been sold, on flat ground moving a lot of weight is simple with proper gearing.

Early on, a subjective rule stated as "Don't expect to race an electric motorcycle, because we won't let you race, but please show up anyway so you can show it off during the practice sessions or between races. Who knows, you may even be able to drum up some pick up races against some of the top ebikes." is likely to be sufficient for now.

I don't see a spectrum of claimer prices working. Who's going to put ANY ebike that races 10 miles in a $300 or $500 claiming race?

Rules not only need to be effective, but they need to be easily enforced. As soon as there are rules, there will be those who search for ways around them. A weight limit may be easy but it is exclusionary, and would be ineffective in preventing emoto performance. Plus weight carries it's own penalty, so much so that large riders will quickly be relegated to the for fun category(ies) as racing becomes serious, without classification based on a power to total weight (bike+rider). That would only make racing competitive, but not reward innovation.

[TylerDurden]

Yes, it is sophistry to declare disasterous unintended consequences, if you cannot point to the specific risk. Use examples.

Yes. Add the emoto class. Ebikes like Luke's can opt in.

Now, tell me where any bike won't fit and have a race.

Don't worry about how many classes you make, the spectrum of classes is simply indexes.... if 20 people show up and all want to race unlimited, fine. But if a handful want to run a class maxing at $500-claim they have the chance to race each other without a spendy spoiler. You have a grand total of two classes.

In any class, no limit to battery or motor, just claimer (ex. unlimited). See what innovation comes from balance-of-system under a cost threshold.

As for cargo-bikes and gearing: read more closely... not just distance but also time. Who can pedal a 400lb moto 100m in <min? Pick any ratios you like.

Case 1:
Luke, Thud, Dogman, j3tch1u, PaulD and some misguided gassers run unlimited.
Six hubbies show up and decide to split off into a $1000 class. Five ezips show up and split into a $400 class. Nobody is forcing them to run with the unlimiteds, and nobody is forcing the ULs to race in a 1k or 400 claimer.

Case 2:
Luke, Thud, Dogman, j3tch1u, PaulD and some misguided gassers run unlimited.
Five ezips show up and split into a $400 class.
Two hubbies show up and want to split off into a $1000 class but the minimum is five bikes. If they want to race, they need to move up to the UL or down to the 400.

Case 3:
Luke and Thud show, but the other hot bikes don't show.
Six hubbies in a 1k claimer.
Five ezips in a 400 claimer.

Luke and Thud would not drop into the claimers, but they could duke it out.


As for $300-$500 bikes racing 10 miles... Amber vs. the Ezips. I'd watch that.

[John in CR]

The name calling was bad enough, but being grandiloquent and insulting with a word like sophistry, and pushing that issue is quite over the top. No one said anything about disasterous consequences, and I referred to unintended consequences as primarily exclusion of potential entrants without good reason by using rules such as weight limits or limited to bicycle components, etc.

At first glance I too was intrigued by a claimer arrangement as an equalizer, and while it might work to some extent with much higher prices, it would all but ensure only ugly bikes or the cheapest stock off the shelf bikes. eg AW said he wouldn't race even in a $2k claimer race since he can't risk losing his basic transportation. Even though I have some of the cheapest and ugliest ebikes with only recycled batteries and motors I obtained incredibly cheap, I doubt that I'd want to enter them at even a $1k claimer level. Of course, I'd want to go in unlimited now anyway until some level of durability is proven by faster bikes. Guys who pour their soul into top notch finish work would no way risk their work to a claimer sale. A distinct lack of quality workmanship, zero beautification, and an overall unwillingness of participants to race in your claimers categories makes for a pretty useless set of proposed rules.

Pedaling under leg power alone really won't work as a test either, especially not some 100m straight shot. 100m in 1min is an average of only 6kph (3.7mph). I am in near zero cycling shape and I've done faster than that for about a half a mile with 2 kids (75lbs and 45lbs) on my 125lb bike plus me at about 100lb over the weight of the common cyclist. That was overcoming my hubbie's cogging force that is definitely greater than the rolling resistance of a 500lb motorcycle with good tire pressure and a freewheel at the wheel. If someone really wants to run an emoto with pedals, even a lap around the course under pedal power alone isn't a test that will work. I see guys regularly with working trikes and bikes with trailers moving significant loads. Even the bike power calculators such as http://classic-web.archive.org/web/20030606033346/kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm and http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesPower_Page.html show how little power is required to move very heavily laden bikes at low speed.

Maybe a pedal only 1 lap contest would be an interesting and fun addition to the racing, but as a test to prevent competition by a bike with an unfair advantage over the field it would be useless.

I believe classes can easily be assigned as needed once the field is known, and done through an informal arrangement involving the contestants and organizers. Even done on a voluntary basis will probably work fine, especially after some practice runs. If some dispute arises, that's easily settled with a 100m drag, which would be fun itself. In a addition to wanting to meet fellow ebikers in person, I think most just want to get out on a track and get to run their bikes hard on a good clean surface with no cars, pedestrians or intersections. Some may want to take a crack at the top dogs, especially while high power and durability seem to be mutually exclusive for many. I know I do, at least while speeds aren't outside of my comfort zone, especially given the misleading talk against hubmotors that DocBass, Arlo1, and I know to be false.

There's nothing wrong with planning ahead for when rules become necessary. Making good rules starts with defining the problem. Leave making ineffective rules, or rules for problems that don't exist, to government, since they're already so good at it.