Who killed american solar?

[jag]

We saw "Who killed the electrical car". This month Canadian business ran an article "Who killed American solar? "

Turns out solar hot water heating was "hot" business in the American south from around 1900 to 1950 with manufacturers in CA and FL.

In 1891 a single home solar water heating unit cost $25 and saved an annual $9 in coal. By 1930 there were ten american companies competing in the solar water heating market, and from 1937 to 1941 80% of new homes built in Miami were equipped with solar water heaters. By now there is no large scale market for solar water heating.

So "Who killed American solar? "
The usual suspects.
Utility companies wanted to push their gas and electric.
Builders put in the water heater with the cheapest up-front cost (usually electric), despite solar being cheaper overall.

An angle not put forward in the article is that the public accepted this; either didn't care or were not smart enough to do the math; or both.

An excerpt from the article:

To make matters worse for the solar industry, "a new force, the large-scale builder-developer," showed up in Florida. These companies had a perverse set of incentives because they built homes before they sold them. Their only concern was driving down the up-front cost of construction. Electric water heaters fit their needs perfectly because they seemed cheaper, even if their cost over the life of the house could have been higher. "Developers almost always included electric hot water systems in new homes because of their low capital cost," wrote a historian of the period. "Monthly electricity bills were not their concern."

With all that stacked against them, the U.S. domestic solar hot-water industry slowly withered away. However, others picked up where American R&D had left off, notably Levi Yissar's work on new absorptive coatings in Israel. The Japanese market boomed, as did Turkey's and much of the European Union. But China became the big market. In 1991, the country had little solar-heater manufacturing capacity. By 2005, 35 million Chinese families were using solar hot-water heaters, with solar commanding a 12% market share in the country. In 2007, China had nearly 70% of the world's 2.2 billion square feet of installed collector capacity. Chinese solar-heater production outpaced Americans' by 160 times.

Like so many other renewable energy industries, a field that the United States once dominated has moved on to greener pastures. A technology invented and improved in the United States is a dim memory here and a thriving industry elsewhere.

Full text of the story: (but the on-line version is missing the historic pictures of American subdivisions with solar heating that were in the print magazine)
http://www.canadianbusiness.com/managing/strategy/article.jsp?content=20110411_10022_10022

[Harold in CR]

You are going to find, local gestapo govt.s are helping to kill off or hold back Solar of any kind.

Try to get "permission" to put Solar E-Panels on your roof, or, a solar water heater. Major permitting costs, stupid inspections, and "Rules" of associations.

One more reason I moved further south.

[wineboyrider]

You are going to find, local gestapo govt.s are helping to kill off or hold back Solar of any kind.

Try to get "permission" to put Solar E-Panels on your roof, or, a solar water heater. Major permitting costs, stupid inspections, and "Rules" of associations.

One more reason I moved further south.

The government and rules are usually the largest impediments to implementing greener and cleaner energy.
Sorry, that's the libertarian in me.

I was doing some research on converting my larger delivery vehicles to natural gas.he
The main reason is to save money, but also nat. gas burns cleaner than gasoline and it comes from here locally. Anyways, getting an EPA certified natural gas kit or car is very expensive and then finding a fueling station is next to impossible at least where I am....

[dnmun]

wineboy is total on this one.

the EPA is so hysterical about the possibility that someone would convert their own vehicle to CNG, they will seize any vehicle they find without an authorized installer certification on the car. if someone wanted to start a business modifying cars, they have to do the whole roster of crash test, enviro impacts, and pushups on the gas handling certifications. just to do what an itinerant mechanic in pakistan can do for free. here it costs a minimum of $200k to just start up, on top of the cost of the cars you have to do the destructive testing on.

in iran, pakistan, and argentina a lot of vehicles have been converted, but this country is the one that is backward.

you can't even import the kits into the US from other countries, against the federal laws.

[liveforphysics]

In China, while high up in a tall hotel, I took a nice long look around the tops of the buildings all around below me. You know what every single building without exception has sitting on top of it? Solar equipment. Every one of them at least has a nice big solar water heater, and a huge amount also have solar cell arrays, many on simple tracking gimbals.


This seemed kinda surprising to see. What was more surprising to see though, was a number of local store-fronts right in the heart of the inner cities that specialized just in solar cells or solar water heaters etc.

Chinese know what's up, and know what makes financial sense in the long run.

[CrazyJerry]

.....

Chinese know what's up, and know what makes financial sense in the long run.

Correct! And I constantly catch a lot of flack for my off-grid endeavor since most people I speak with only know a one sided story. I do like to throw in a quote of my own though:
"The line is only 30 feet at best from my front door... And if it were cheaper, I'd be doing it."
CrazyJerry

[wineboyrider]

@LFP:
Yep. I should use solar to heat my water and charge my batteries and the nat. gas to deliver wine to china!

[wineboyrider]

wineboy is total on this one.

the EPA is so hysterical about the possibility that someone would convert their own vehicle to CNG, they will seize any vehicle they find without an authorized installer certification on the car. if someone wanted to start a business modifying cars, they have to do the whole roster of crash test, enviro impacts, and pushups on the gas handling certifications. just to do what an itinerant mechanic in pakistan can do for free. here it costs a minimum of $200k to just start up, on top of the cost of the cars you have to do the destructive testing on.

in iran, pakistan, and argentina a lot of vehicles have been converted, but this country is the one that is backward.

you can't even import the kits into the US from other countries, against the federal laws.

I have seen some DIY kits available for sale in the US. Utah has some of the easiest laws to convert to natural gas and they have a lot of cng stations.
The rules for electric vehicles are also pretty strict and weird here in the USA. Smaller electric vehicles are impossible to register drive and insure in some states.
It's kind of sad that on some issues the left and the right can agree on some things, but yet nothing is done. So we just keep on importing expensive foreign oil and sending our troops on more oil adventures.

[julesa]

I'm not dead... I'm getting better.

I don't want to go on the cart.

http://www.brightsourceenergy.com/about_us

[neptronix]

in regards to CNG conversions.. methane is a greenhouse gas that is 25 times worse than carbon dioxide per unit, as per wikipedia, and as a bonus it degrades the ozone layer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane#Atmospheric_methane

The stuff leaks all the time from gas stoves, heaters etc. Imagine the impact of it leaking constantly from cars, filling stations, and such.

Oil companies burn about half of the natural gas they produce... why? because it is better for the environment to burn the stuff than to allow it to escape into the atmosphere.

As for solar... we are retarded not to take advantage of it like China has. We should be assembling them as quickly and as cheaply as we can.
But our politics lead to us being too stupid for our own good.

[wineboyrider]

in regards to CNG conversions.. methane is a greenhouse gas that is 25 times worse than carbon dioxide per unit, as per wikipedia, and as a bonus it degrades the ozone layer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane#Atmospheric_methane

The stuff leaks all the time from gas stoves, heaters etc. Imagine the impact of it leaking constantly from cars, filling stations, and such.

Oil companies burn about half of the natural gas they produce... why? because it is better for the environment to burn the stuff than to allow it to escape into the atmosphere.

As for solar... we are retarded not to take advantage of it like China has. We should be assembling them as quickly and as cheaply as we can.
But our politics lead to us being too stupid for our own good.

You just described all the dairy farms in this country. I ain't going to stop drinking milk, because I am afraid of methane. Hell no it's great for drag cars!

[999zip999]

Are politicians run on a 4 year cycle with no care in long term health of the USA just the health of there wallet. Suitcases full of money to iraq no over saight. Most people think we went to Iraq for ben laden. They can't remeber bush sunk the world down the tube 3 yrs. ago. Now Obama has to pick up bushies broken toys left on the ground. And chenny off shore bank account. The problem is we are SHEEP. Who said that ? There a knonk on the door. Quiet

[gogo]

I'm sorry I missed this thread at its initial posting. A quick search on Google turned up these two links concerning government intervention:

This one is about rank and file CNG guys concerned about their industry. It reminds me of some of the ES members' concern about the ebike movement.
CNG Conversion Concerns

This one is about what happened in Arizona's incentive program "gone bad".
The Great Pickup Stick-Up - Arizona goes nearly bankrupt on an alternative-fuel vehicle program

These issues confirm my belief that any action of the government should be directly justified to protecting individual rights. The further you get from that principle, the more potential there is for unintended and counter-productive consequences.

[wineboyrider]

I'm sorry I missed this thread at its initial posting. A quick search on Google turned up these two links concerning government intervention:

This one is about rank and file CNG guys concerned about their industry. It reminds me of some of the ES members' concern about the ebike movement.
CNG Conversion Concerns

This one is about what happened in Arizona's incentive program "gone bad".
The Great Pickup Stick-Up - Arizona goes nearly bankrupt on an alternative-fuel vehicle program

These issues confirm my belief that any action of the government should be directly justified to protecting individual rights. The further you get from that principle, the more potential there is for unintended and counter-productive consequences.

I agree CAVEAT EMPTOR.
Most people buy "possibly" explosive batteries and put them on their bicycle in the hopes of having fun and/or saving money????
CNG conversion is no more dangerous than LPG conversions, which are done all the time for forklifts and rock crawling vehicles.
The most difficult part of CNG is finding a place to fill up.

[jonescg]

We tend to use LPG here (mostly propane) and only public transport and some trucking companies use CNG.
Several State Governments offered rebates on LPG conversions (roughly $2000 a go) and it was taken up by people with large cars and small prick-ups (one in three early model F150s are LPG). At the same time, almost every petrol station sells LPG because it is used to refuel BBQ cylinders and the like.

However, in the last 20 years the price of LPG went from 19 cents per litre to 77 cents per litre (400% increase) while regular petrol went from 55 cents per litre to $1.55 per litre 280% increase. For LPG, most of that rise was in the first 5 years of the scheme.

Moral to the story, rebates are only good for encouraging uptake, not keeping prices down. And even then, the uptake rate drops off once people see the price increasing steadily.

I don't think rooftop solar has been as bad, as the sheer increase in demand for good PVs has brought the price from $10/Watt to about $5/Watt. But the pricing and tariff regimes are all over the place. Better off going for NiFe batteries and going off grid. frock em!

[zap]

An excellent site for most anything to do with solar heat.
http://builditsolar.com/

[deronmoped]

Cost.

Heating hot water with roof mounted panels is very expensive. Your going to spend a few grand to save a couple of hundred a year. So that means your payback is ten plus years down the road. Well guess what, these systems need repair from time to time, so the pay back gets even farther down the road. On top of that, when it comes time to re-roof the house or repair the roof, the panel has to come down. Guess what, most times the panels do not go back up, because it costs too much.

I installed a system on my house in 1996. Found it used for $100.00. Had to rebuild the collector, all the pipes were split. Moved the storage tank due to a remodel. Had the controller fixed once for $50.00. It's still working, saving me like $100.00 a year in natural gas. It probably cost me $800.00 in my labor so far. My roof needs to be replaced, so the panel has to come down. That's another couple of hundred to do that. I'm money ahead, but there is no big savings, not unless your using very expensive energy to heat your water.

Plus, you have to remember, the original owner of the house that installed the system, may no longer own the house. The new owners may care less about a system on their roof, they may even hate the look of it. So they remove it at some point. Such as when it breaks, or the roof has to be done or it's just a eye sore to them.

I expect the same thing to happen to the photovoltaic systems, for pretty much all the same reasons. Inverter goes out, trees shade it or it gets damaged from a falling branch. Roof needs fixing or another roof, so off comes the system, for good...

[o00scorpion00o]

We spend about 500 Euros on electricity a year and about another 500-700 on heating oil.

Solar hot water would only be useful for about 5 months of the year because the oil heating takes care of heating water as well as radiators. In summer electricity heats the water if it's warm enough that we don't need heating.

It costs around 2500 euros for solar hot water, not really worth it.

It would cost about 9,000 euros here for a 3 kw pv system, and I'm convinced that's a lot more than it should, but this is Ireland and its very hard to find tradesmen that are not out to rip you off!

Solar prices are much cheaper so I don't know how it comes to cost that!

Wind being a huge assit of ours has the best potential but a 3 kw system installed will cost about 15,000 euros about twice the cost of solar!

I'm still convinced a 3 kw pv system should cost no more than 5 k euros installed!

It costs much more a year to drive because of the high tax on petrol fuel spending much more than we do to heat the house or electricity, so switching to e.v would save us much more than switching to solar or wind !

But that also is not an option yet!