What about an Endless-sphere wiki?

[Metallover]

I think a wiki here at Endless Sphere would help countless people and (hopefully) greatly reduce the number of newb posts here on the forum.

Think of all the times you could have made a quick reference to a wiki instead of searching through thousands of threads!

There is a great wiki up and running for the construction of potato cannons over at spudfiles.com. There they have a nice forum, a strong wiki, and a big showcase section.


Looking at the Spudfiles forum and wiki.


Up at the top the forum features buttons directing to the showcase section and wiki, among other things. Link




This is the wiki. Everything newbs (and even more experienced members!) want to know is there and easy to find.




I'm not saying ES sucks, or ES needs to be more like this other forum.. I just want to throw some ideas into the pool.

Adding a wiki and/or a dedicated showcase section (similar to evalbum) would be a big step in the right direction in order to make this extremely-knowledgeable forum even better.

And also, even though I am far from a senior member here, I would be more than willing to contribute and help create a wiki or some faqs.

[Philistine]

I think it is a great idea personally. I don't know how many times I have posted Noob questions, to be screamed and yelled at about using the search function. But using the search function on this forum is like going through my tax receipts. It is all over the place and mostly unreliable. I think this is the same thorny issue that lead to the argument recently about a FAQ.

I expect that your suggestion will generally be met with responses from core members of this forum telling you that you are an idiotic moron and should shut up, some invective bile will follow, about how unschooled dumb f*cks, with no idea about science or electronics should just get off this forum, a debate will ensue, most of which will degenerate into personal attacks, and nothing will be resolved.

And that is why I love this forum! Because it resembles my personal life and relationships.

BUT. Good idea......

You f*cking idiot.

Edit: I changed "cracking" to "great", realised it might have different meanings culturally.

[TylerDurden]

Been tried a couple of times.

The folks who have the most knowledge have the least time. The folks with the most time have the least knowledge.

Bad enough that noobs are trying to write FAQs.

[Philistine]

Bad enough that noobs are trying to write FAQs.

But correct me if I am wrong (which I am a lot), I would have thought as a Wiki, it couldn't be edited by just anyone?

I thought with a wiki it would be ultimately edited by the forum administrators?

I think Metallovers suggestion is that it would be great if the effective equivalent of sticky threads updated over time with updates to info?

But I must say I love that my second post on the thread got proved to be true by the third....

[jonathanm]

I think it's a great idea, and am willing to help. Noobs like me can help with the basic info, and also getting it set up and structured. I think it's the headache of doing that which puts people off.Then the more knowledgeable folks just have to drop by and add their pearly wisdoms.....which they do on a regular basis in posts anyhows.

[neptronix]

Been tried a couple of times.

The folks who have the most knowledge have the least time. The folks with the most time have the least knowledge.
Bad enough that noobs are trying to write FAQs.

So just let the knowledge base fall off into rambling multi dozen posts that aren't stickied or organized and keep answering the same questions over and over again until the knowledgeable people are tired of dealing with it.. problem solved?

No other forum i've been on operates this way. And i've been on a lot of forums.

[neptronix]

As for the wikis..

I find them to be often either cultivated by 1 or 2 people, or just started and neglected forever.
Usually the latter.

Wiki works really well for a large base of information ( like wikipedia ), not so well for a small base of info.
Think about it, how many wikis do you regularly visit? I only visit one.

[TylerDurden]

So just let the knowledge base fall off into rambling multi dozen posts that aren't stickied or organized and keep answering the same questions over and over again until the knowledgeable people are tired of dealing with it.. problem solved?

Better than having people say "volts are like horsepower".

[neptronix]

Better than having people say "volts are like horsepower".

Ok, so discredit me 100% off one statement.
One statement that i publicly and admitted i was wrong on.
That's fair.

[jonathanm]

Think how much time and effort all you experts can save if all you need to do is post this:

ES_MrT.jpg (15.04 KiB) Viewed 1277 times

[auraslip]

The folks who have the most knowledge have the least time. The folks with the most time have the least knowledge.

I fall into the later, but yet I still try. The trick is to know the limits of your knowledge and try your hardest not to write things you don't know anything about. For my site I just take whatever the most common responses are and write those. "What battery should I get?" ---- well here is what you'll hear 90% of the time.

Also cause I can just tell people to google my site IRL and it will answer most of the questions they have.

[jonathanm]

There's a lot of basic info around and sites like Auraslips and Ypedals are great and easily found. Then at the top end of the knowledge spectrum....very specific things...its easy to find stuff via google, though time consuming and confusing....

I think this is where a wiki comes into it's element....how about a direct comparison of the different clyte models? circuit diagrams for throttles? specs for different cells? etc etc....this is the stuff which gets impossible to find without spending days looking for it. I should know, I've been reading constantly for the last couple of weeks....a first everything was useful, now I have to hunt for the good stuff, and even bookmarking it for reference is getting messy.

I'm also finding a lot of contradictory advice around....a wiki could clear that up too.....or at least be a central location for the debate if something is not black and white.

I agree though that it's not a good idea if only a few people are interested in doing it.....as seems to be the case right now. Looks like 3 of us are game right now...anyone else?

[auraslip]

I'd love a good break down of all the hub motors on the market, but that's a lot of work for one person to do.

There is/was already an ES wiki. Maybe message knightmbr and ask him about opening it up again.

[jonathanm]

I'd love a good break down of all the hub motors on the market, but that's a lot of work for one person to do.

Exactly...wikis don't work if one person does them (or even 3) but 10 or 20 people could pull a basic hub motor comparison together in a couple of days just by digging through old threads. More detailed analysis could come afterwards from the people who have the RL experience with multiple motors...

There is/was already an ES wiki. Maybe message knightmbr and ask him about opening it up again.

Well let's see if we can get enough interest first...

[neptronix]

jonathanm, i feel ya. I spent my first 3 months reading ES and not building anything since the information paralysis factor was so high, whilst the fall faded into winter and signaled the end of acceptable riding weather for the next 6 months

That's why i'm pretty sympathetic for the FAQ cause. And reject the defeatist attitude of having to know everything 100% before starting. That's what the process of accepting corrections is for.

To metallover:

I you want a wiki, start one. It's all about taking initiative. I started ES facebook, Tony started the ES podcast ( now ebike nerdcast ), auraslip started his general info site, YPedal has a general info site, etc. Go for it, and if you need help sorting out the bad info from the good, i hope you get the info you need here.. if not, feel free to ask me and i'll help you as much as possible.

[liveforphysics]

Think how much time and effort all you experts can save if all you need to do is post this:

ES_MrT.jpg

Yes.

This would be nice.


We do need a Wiki. It would save a lot of time, and be a golden sample of perfect info, which needs to happen here badly to keep the info pure. Too many of the smart folks left or don't bother to correct newbs spreading incorrect BS anymore, and that leads to becoming like all the other forums.

[amberwolf]

I still think a wiki is a good idea. I also suggested it, way back when I was still kinda new here.

There really is a tremendous amount of info that could be written into articles. Even if it *is* noobs doing the majority of the work, it can still be edited by someone that sees a mistake, and fixed. All the history of each edit would still be there to undo something that's "fixed" by mistake.

There was a point for several months when I would have had lots of time to spend on converting threads to articles (but not so much anymore, though I do have a lot more computer time than anything else, given my sleep situation). That's when I really wanted to do it.

The thing is, unless the wiki is actually a *part* of the ES site, and not something separate, somewhere else, I wouldnt' want to do any work on it. I would prefer to keep it all as one thing, on one domain, etc. I'd also want something that cant' be too hard to script somehow (says the person with no clue on scripting anything ), which is to automatically create a wiki user for each ES registration. (yes, I know this means spammers that get thru would also be on the wiki). But in order to get wiki editing powah, one must ask for it, just like one must ask for Guru status on ES to be able to add info to the Tech Reference sections, IIRC.


The nice thing about a wiki is that while one can have a discussion about the article or subject at hand, it is *completely separate* from the actual article, and not even displayed, unless the reader clicks on that tab within the article. So all the talk about what goes into an article can be there, but the article itself remains concise and clean.

Linking to other articles can be done more easily, too, rather than a post that just has lists linking individual posts within a thread, or the original thread author having to update the OP, anyone that wants to link relevant articles together can do so while reading, by editing in the appropriate pointers onto the words within an article. This will not have to be done when creating the article, as it basically would in an ES forum post, but rather can be added later at any time, by whoever has the time at that moment.


It would of necessity start small and grow slowly, as various people have time, but could eventually contain all the useful correct info from ES's discussion forums in a technical encyclopedia of tremendous value.

Additionally, there are bits of software out there that allow the saving of an entire wiki to a local file, for reference at any time even offline. This can also be used by anyone to back up the entire Wiki, so loss of all the ES info would essentially be impossible (unlike now).


Also, AFAIK, the only wiki ever practically started was not on the ES site; but started by another ES member (cant' rmember who), and it got spammed out of existence.

[jonathanm]

There was a point for several months when I would have had lots of time to spend on converting threads to articles (but not so much anymore, though I do have a lot more computer time than anything else, given my sleep situation). That's when I really wanted to do it.

Yes, I feel the same. I am spending a lot of time on ebike knowledge right now and I would like to use that energy to produce something useful (apart from the bike of course ) As I get more into this I will be less inclined to do it, noobs asking the same shit over and over again will grind me down and I will become a grumpy jaded old git like you guys. This is the noob/expert paradigm, and I'm sure there is a solution as long as we are aware of its existence and work with it rather than against it.

The thing is, unless the wiki is actually a *part* of the ES site, and not something separate, somewhere else, I wouldnt' want to do any work on it. I would prefer to keep it all as one thing, on one domain, etc.

I agree.... wiki.endless-sphere.com it ought to be. This is already the only *serious* URL option i reckon.

I'd also want something that cant' be too hard to script somehow (says the person with no clue on scripting anything ), which is to automatically create a wiki user for each ES registration. (yes, I know this means spammers that get thru would also be on the wiki). But in order to get wiki editing powah, one must ask for it, just like one must ask for Guru status on ES to be able to add info to the Tech Reference sections, IIRC.

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:PHPBB/Users_Integration

It would of necessity start small and grow slowly, as various people have time, but could eventually contain all the useful correct info from ES's discussion forums in a technical encyclopedia of tremendous value.

The wiki software has multiple user levels, with corresponding rights and privileges. Noobs could gather relevant info from old threads and dump it into a "holding page" for sorting and basic editing. Reviewers, bureaucrats, stewards and admins ( i think thats the terminology) can then approve or reject bits for publishing, or for further discussion. I reckon if it takes ome time to go through this process, and even to refine this process, it will be time worth spending. If users can even just view (but not edit) the holding pages and discussion pages, it will be a lot more useful than hunting the forum for hours.....

[liveforphysics]

Ok, in another thread, I created some crude framework that I think is roughly the right order for someone to be able to use a wiki. Keep in mind, most folks don't even know the units and words we are using, so it needs to start there, then move incrementally towards the interesting topics which cant even be explained until the core things like units and basic relationships become solid.

If we assign 1 person to each section (like a volunteer thing), I am willing to peer-review the sections that suit my knowledge base, possibly edit content as/if needed etc. Then we run the content by a few newbs, and ask them if it's helpful, or what parts they don't understand etc, and write up examples or diagrams as needed until the typical newb and read the sections incrementally and answer their question themselves, as well as have the skills and resources to go much further in the Ebike world than they did before.

Here was my crude framework:


The order we would need to have for FAQ's to work would be something like this.

Basic definitions: cell, parallel, series, battery and battery array, ESC, hall effect/sensor,

Basic units of electronics:
Amps, Volts, Watts, Watt-hours, Amp-Hours, Ohms, Henrys, Farads, Ri, etc. And an explanation and example for each one.

Then, after they finished the unit FAQ, they could move onto a basic formulas FAQ: V= IR, I^2R=Watts of heat loss, IR = voltage drop, C-rate, internal resistance calcs, PWM% calcs, various power and energy calcs, etc.

Then once they have finished and understand the core basic calculations, they could move onto higher level FAQ's, which are really impossible to grasp if you don't have the core basics solidly understood.

Like an FAQ on battery charging process, what happens and how it works and how to do it right.

An FAQ on understanding the relationships between torque and RPM to determine mechanical power, and conversions from watts to HP etc.

An FAQ on motors, and try to break down all the extremely wrong info people spread constantly about motors (and I was once one of them myself, thank you Miles and Jeremy)

An FAQ on understanding the differences that matter to the user in battery chemistries.

An FAQ on the role and effects PWM plays in the battery/controller/motor system.

An FAQ on understanding inductance and how inductance and temporary flux energy storage enables our bikes to function (because it really requires an entire FAQ just to itself).

An FAQ on motor efficiency and which areas are the substantial sources of loss, and how the 5 major loss groups change with RPM.

An FAQ on cell balancing and the various methods and mechanisms that can accomplish it, and which are practical and impractical in practice.

etc etc etc At least 20 more topics would be needed.

[jonathanm]

All sounds good to me. Perhaps this could be split into "levels" or something...so a basic 101 that EVERYONE needs to know...then moving up from there.

Then there is also some more practical stuff......

bike mechanics specifically related to ebikes.

products available, what they do, what the options are.

hacks, mods and improvements

legal stuff by country and state.

etc etc

EDIT: perhaps the first step is to sketch out a hierarchical tree structure and its branches. Once everyone approves of that more or less, we can then start blooming like the darling buds of may.....

EDIT 2: lol, Luke that's basically what you just said, sorry....late

[neptronix]

The thing is, unless the wiki is actually a *part* of the ES site, and not something separate, somewhere else, I wouldnt' want to do any work on it. I would prefer to keep it all as one thing, on one domain, etc. I'd also want something that cant' be too hard to script somehow (says the person with no clue on scripting anything ), which is to automatically create a wiki user for each ES registration. (yes, I know this means spammers that get thru would also be on the wiki). But in order to get wiki editing powah, one must ask for it, just like one must ask for Guru status on ES to be able to add info to the Tech Reference sections, IIRC.

I totally agree with you about the wikis. It being on a separate site is a huge turnoff for me. I suppose i just don't see it as legitimately part of the site if it isn't integrated somehow.

Maybe it's a weird mental quirk of mine; then again going off the offsite, non-integrated wikis i have seen on the web, most people seem to be of a similar mindset.
Hell, my IT company thought it was a great idea to have a wiki, 3 out of 20 guys actually maintained it and maybe 5 actually read it, it fell to neglect because actually talking to each other was easier. Eventually it was wiped out.


Luke, i think the majority of the info we need is floating around. What do you think of basically putting together a faq full of quotes? .. then filling in the blanks?

One of the car sites i'm on has a few big info threads like that. Here is an example that basically lays out practically every suspension possibility for the Nissan SR20 cars.

http://www.sr20-forum.com/suspension/1801-b13-b14-b15-suspension-information.html

A little cheap, but it does the work and takes a hell of a lot less time.

[jonathanm]

That approach is great from a user point of view, but there are problems....one user is responsible for collating and updating the info. There is not a clear place for discussion or debate, etc etc.

You're right that there is nothing worse than a badly attended wiki....so it will only work if there is a critical mass of people behind it. Of course some members here carry more mass than others.....

[neptronix]

That approach is great from a user point of view, but there are problems....one user is responsible for collating and updating the info. There is not a clear place for discussion or debate, etc etc.

You're right that there is nothing worse than a badly attended wiki....so it will only work if there is a critical mass of people behind it. Of course some members here carry more mass than others.....

Both approaches have issues:

+ Person writing article have to do all the work, and reap the resulting credit for doing so, but they also have complete control.
+ People writing article can split up the work, but nobody gets credit, "knowledge of the commons" effect is positive, but it means that people have to argue things over until a consensus is reached.

I just prefer #1 because it keeps all the info on the site.. not in some separate place.

[jonathanm]

I agree that #1 is better in terms of tighter content control etc....but who's gonna take that on?....are you volunteering? lol

As far as keeping it on the same site, as long as its on the same domain, I dunno if thats an issue....does wiki.endless-sphere.com not work for you?

[jonathanm]

I setup a mind map on mindmeister.com for this. dunno if this is workable but thought I'd try it...I like mindmaps...

This is just to brainstorm a structure...I agree completely about keeping any actual wiki on the ES domain. maybe someone who know the mods can see about that.

http://www.mindmeister.com/99617450/endless-sphere-wiki

you can edit it by clicking in the bottom left corner and creating an account or logging in with facebook etc. Or you can login with the account I created - username endlesssphere password ebikes don't know how well it handles concurrent logins by the same user though.

I just filled in a few basics before bed...if anyone wants to have a crack at it then feel free.