MAC motor + Trek 4300 build

[amberwolf]

The nice thing about electric drive is that if you look around you, and you know what you're looking for, you might be able to pull parts off stuff junked on the sidewalk or in a nearby alley to fix the thing well enough to get home if it breaks while on the road. Heck, you could even rewind a motor with wire off transformers and such, if you *had* to.

That's not quite as likely with a typical ICE, although there are things you can fix on those with some duct tape that wouldnt' be possible on an electric drive.

[neptronix]

Hah, maybe on your bike.
I didn't know you could use transformer wire for the task.. it has the enamel on it and all that?

But if eBikes get more popular, it would be cool to find brushless hub motors on the side of the road, lol..

Anyway lookie at what i got in the mail today.



DD kit as a backup, or maybe as the girlfriend bike motor



63v caps and a shunt that's just asking for some solder on it. I think i'll keep it stock though since it is a backup and all.



Found a 'new old stock' shimano megarange freewheel on eBay, that arrived today too. Paid $50 for it.. not a bad deal IMHO considering how rare it is. DNP 11t freewheel on the right, which surprisingly, is holding up well.



But i won't be riding today. Looks like i could get stuck in a downpour... in the middle of summer..

[o00scorpion00o]

Hey david,

Wow that got there quick!

haha That direct drive looks big compared to the mac doesn't it?

That's a strange looking heatsink on those fet's what controller is it?

how many volts are oyu going to run through there?

Downpour in summer? you think that's bad, I had to clear frost of the car this morning on the 10th June? wtf?

That DD is going to be slow compared to the mac, give it to your girlfriend!

[neptronix]

Sea shipping from coastal China is amazingly fast.. seriously.. one week! And it had to travel 1000 miles north by land to get to me. O_O

Yeah, it's damned big.. and heavy too.
That controller is the stock MXUS kit one. It's a 6FET i believe. Not programmable, and set to 22 amps.

The DD is slow, it's an 8 turn motor so it will need 60-72 volts to produce the same speed that the MAC does, but i have a feeling that it is going to have beastly torque so i'm excited to test it out. I think i'll start at 15S and see what happens.

You've got frost where you live? oh dude. that's bad.

[o00scorpion00o]

Yep went to the car at 6am to be greeted by ice on the car, this is F*****g nuts, was gone soon enough but still!

I don't think that DD will have great torque at 22 amps? and you might need to install 12G to go higher

However at 72 volts it should fly!

Why did you get with the DD if you don't mind me asking? considering the mac is so powerful with less voltage!

[neptronix]

I got the DD as a backup motor. I don't ever want to be without an ebike! Good riding weather is supposed to come soon, so i refuse to be down again.

It will get 72v This winding does a meager 15mph at 36v, hehe.

The good news is that it has less drag than i thought, so pedaling unpowered may be less of a PITA than expected. But i still prefer the MAC for the freewheeling, for sure.

[amberwolf]

Hah, maybe on your bike.
I didn't know you could use transformer wire for the task.. it has the enamel on it and all that?

Yes. It is exactly the same thing in motors and transformers, except that the stuff in transformers is probably more typically a lower-temperature enamel. I have not yet done the experiment, but I've unwound a number of large transformers, CRT yokes, and other things over the years, saving the wire onto old spools, so that I could rewind it onto motors for bike experiments or repairs.

At one time I was gathering the wire so I could rewind an old AC-induction cieling-fan motor as a brushless PM, but Karma ended up doing that for me with his own much thicker wire. I just have to get time to make a flux ring to mount magnets on for that motor, so that I can begin testing it for usefulness on a bike.

But if eBikes get more popular, it would be cool to find brushless hub motors on the side of the road, lol..

That would be nice. Eventually, it will happen, because at least here in the USA, we just throw out whatever we don't want anymore, useful or not. (in fact, the government *wants* us to do that, and laws are often written to keep you from saving stuff).

[neptronix]

Amberwolf, in a mad max future.. you will be king

(in fact, the government *wants* us to do that, and laws are often written to keep you from saving stuff).

Hmm.. what do you mean by this exactly ? I know there are car scrappage programs, and analogue TV went extinct recently, but other than that, it's usually the corporations pushing the rapid changes in tech / obsoleteism.

However i do have a little conspiracy theory when it comes to cars. There were a lot of brands that made solid cars in the 1980's-1990's period, but when yr. 2000 hit, a lot of automaker's reliability and build quality went to hell, as if a switch was flipped. Now cars seem to be built to be disposable. I don't know if it is a built in scrappage program like Japan or what..

By the way, i have a goodie for y'all. This is a new MAC gray gear. Side by side with my spare BMC gearset.



Taller, a bit heavier, and what looks and feels like a better bearing too.
My stock gears are still in really good shape. I will keep these as a second set of spares.

[o00scorpion00o]

That's nice to see that the gears are a little wider and better built!

Ha did someone mention car scrappage ? lol we have that there, but it's a load of s***e we don't make cars, so it doesn't make sense!

I'm dying David for you to get that DD up and running on 72 volts, it will be interesting! I wonder could you dump 40 amps into it? I bet it would fly!

[neptronix]

Okay, got the DD motor hooked up on the bike.
Installation was stupidly easy. I plugged in the stock hall + phase connectors directly into the 9FET that. No problems!

I am glad i chose the MAC motor over a DD. This motor takes almost the same watts in ( 33 amps instead of 36 ) and does just a bit less work. It is also quite loud to the outside world. People seem to notice it, whereas they don't seem to notice the MAC motor, which puzzles me. Something about how it radiates sound outward i guess. My lady said she could hear me outside. This is contrary to everything i've been told about DDs.

Only tested it at 36v so far. Top speed was 26mph while pedaling. Steady speed is about 23mph or so.

The one positive thing i have to say is that the throttle action is SUPER buttery. I can dial it down to hearing the individual phases firing off. There is no lurch and jolt of acceleration, and low throttle uses low amps, which in turn gives a very linear and responsive feel. I like this a lot.

Another positive thing is that the pedal drag isn't all too bad, then again i do not have regen enabled. The MAC definitely feels like pedaling a regular bike.. this feels like you have a very slightly rubbing brake.

Well, the meanwell's fan apparently doesn't work. It got super freakin' hot inside and started making a buzzing sound. I put a PC fan on top of it and it started shooting out mega hot air. wtf?

Shortly thereafter, voltage jumped from 41v to 48v and amps were all over the place from 4a to 5a. Opened it up and it was a bit smelly inside. Fantastic

Edit: the 48v meanwell has recovered, thank you cosmic jellybean. After cooling off some, it started back up at 41.5v and the current is now at a steady 6.67A as it should be.

Another edit: Oh dear, now that i started it up, it's charging at 6.66 amps instead of 6.67.

[o00scorpion00o]

I wonder is the noise something to do with the controller? I hear some controllers can make different motors a lot noisier ?

That's interesting that you notice it's not too bad to pedal though I wonder how long you could actually pedal?

So are you turning Direct Drive now?

You have to go back to using your Icharger then?

[neptronix]

The noise is quite similar under no load, i haven't ridden on it with the stock 22a controller, so i don't know what it's like loaded.

I don't think i'm a convert. I don't like the higher weight at all. The throttle action is a lot nicer. I think i will try out a crystalyte analog controller out on the MAC though. Should provide the plus side of the DD with none of the weight

The meanwell works despite it's demonic posession. I finished up my charge on it no problem. The fact that it survived the overheating is a good sign that it is a hardy unit.. the non-functioning fan though... well, that sucks. Will investigate later. Until then, the case is open so it expels heat pretty well hehe..

[o00scorpion00o]

I noticed the Mac is noisier at different speeds and on acceleration, but at full speed it's not bad at all and wind noise drowns out any noise at full speed anyway.

It wouldn't bother me at all and it's so much more fun that any direct drive at similar power levels!

I know people were using analog controllers on the BMC 1000W because of heating phase wires, I think that issue is sorted now though?

I don't think there would be an advantage using it on the mac? no harm in trying anyway.

Can't wait until you get the DD up to 72 volts @40 amps!

Lucky your meanwell survived the roasting aright, I may get one of those in the future for a faster bulk charge. Really I will be just happy to get my ZIppy's finally next week, then I can be another converted LiPo addict! With only 2 bricks arriving first I bet the mac will drain that very fast! But it should be fine for boost on hills, I could still see myself getting long distances even with 5ah!

Did you get the covers on the mac yet? I bet you will be glad to have that back!

[neptronix]

hey hey. I got the covers on the MAC and the motor is a-ok now, just giving the DD a beating for fun. Aside from being heavy as hell, not as efficient, and louder, i kinda like the motor. You know why? the wheel drag seems to be exponential to speed, and it really eases braking from high speeds. That's a big upside because normally i am riding the brakes hard to get my fatass + a 60lb bike stopped.

The analog crystalyte controller has a smoother throttle action than the infineons, that is the attraction to it.

Oh, here's the DD hub on 15S / 60v.

[neptronix]

Okay, the MAC is back on the bike. Was going to do a 72v run but once i picked up the MAC i couldn't resist putting it back on.

Two interesting findings:

This DD ( also found in 2 popular ebike kits ... not naming any names lol ) has a funky freewheel machining.. I have 3x 7 speed freewheels and 2 of them fit on it real nice ( oldschool DNP megagear, and oldschool shimano megarange ), whereas the new 7 speed shimano binds up against the hub cover and won't move!

Tried the DD controller out on the MAC for the hell of it. speed modulation works a hell of a lot better, however you need to feather the throttle at start otherwise the motor seems to de-sync for a moment.

It's not buttery smooth as running the DD motor, but it is a big improvement. The big downside is the 22 amp limitation, so it bogs down and has a hard time hitting top sped It also gets rather hot pulling those amps. This motor needs amps.

I will pull it apart tomorrow and try a shunt mod + add some cooling maybe. I wonder if the company that produces this controller also produces a larger 9-12FET designed for 48v operation.

[Spacey]

I have found that the MAC geared motors need a controller that is built for that motor as the timing of the halls is slightly different. Get a 9 or 12 Fet controller from cellman with programming cable. The standard ebikes.ca infineon ran really rough on the Macs.

[neptronix]

I am using the included controller, however i am just not happy with it's throttle action. I'm picky.

Anyway i did a shunt mod on the DD controller after noticing that it had 9 FETs.
I figured it could handle more amps for sure.



From 22 amps... to 30.6 amps . Warm-Hot to to the touch after some hills. That's pretty good considering that i have it in a padded and suffocating black case with 0 airflow.

Motor barely rises above outside temp at 30.6 amps. The MAC can take some damn amps.

She's got 63v caps so i am a bit concerned about running 15S. Even if i charge my batteries to 4.10v/cell ( 61.5v fully charged ), i am way too close to the limit

Not too interested in investing in 4S packs right now.. so i'll see if i can find a 48v version of this.

[neptronix]

Man, i have been dumping some $$$$ on stuff lately.

+ 1.85" Michelin citytires replaced the 1.95" armadillo rear and front forte 1.75" tire.
WAY better cornering, super smooth ride, and low rolling resistance.. wow! what an improvement! They were cheap too at $20 per.

20AH ammo can battery box was NOT working out as designed when i set it up and the topeak rack was way too noisy / jerky / disbalanced the bike too much.. soo..

+ Ordered the Crystalyte battery bag from itselectric.ca
+ Ordered the center triangle battery bag from FalconEV.

One of these bags better work out or i'm gonna go nuts !!

Already have one magicshine, was thinking of adding another, apparently there was a design change..

+ Ordered 2 magicshine 900's. I will run 2 on the bike for super night vision.

ALSO.. the gopro arrived today what a cool unit, way worth the money.

Tested out the MAC motor on the hill.. same test as the DD, but gave the MAC motor 3 less volts since i had been running around earlier:



Guess what.... the MAC motor went 3mph faster at the steepest part of the hill despite the voltage difference. And didn't even get warm at 36 amps.

Here's another video of me seeing how fast i can go. Hit 38mph on 15S, pretty good! on flat land i may be able to go quicker still.

[Spacey]

Glad you are using two hands on the last video lol

[o00scorpion00o]

So that's what neptronix looks like! hehehe

Yeah it's amazing the difference the tyres make especially when peddling! Look out for the Continental sport contact tyres, They are super!

How many bricks do you think you will fit in the crystalyte bag?

I have the topeak bag and I think it's okay, it is a bit noisy al right, they could have designed it that it doesn't rattle so much!

Is it the 320 rpm mac you got again david I forget?

[neptronix]

Spacey, yeah, i am being a bit stupid here lol.. but the bike is quite stable.

Scorpion, no idea! apparently the bag is huge though, and will fit some pings in it according to Ken at itselectric Whatever i can't fit in the it will go into the rear rack.

Continentals look cool but they're twice the price locally.
And yeah, the MAC is 320rpm. Standard wind.

[o00scorpion00o]

Fit some pings in it? wow, it must be big, how many 5ah do you think you could fit in the triangle of a normal bike? What kind of pings,

I too would like an alternative to the battery in the back, and the little 5ah look so lost in the topaeak bag now, poor things, hopefully I can get a few more for company! hehe

By the way David, I love the roads you got there! sure beats the crap I ride on!

[JohnC]

.

[neptronix]

scorpion: i will report on how many 5s lipos fit in these bags as soon as i get them

The roads here are fairly good, my main complaint is bike lanes that appear and disappear randomly in the suburban areas, particularly high traffic main streets.. often times when there is plenty of shoulder space to install a bike lane

JohnC: no, i was running on 10ah of 15S for the MAC test, thus the ~3 volt advantage due to more voltage sag + a slightly lower charge on the hill test.

The reason is that more than 6 5S lipos on the rear rack makes for a flexing seat tube / frame whenever i hit a substantial bump. That and the rear balance gets worse the more crap you jam in there.

I usually stick some in a front bag that i bought, but it only fits 4 5s packs.

http://www.bikepartsexpress.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=BG2540&Category_Code=C13&Store_Code=BPE&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=na&utm_campaign=froogle&utm_content=BG2540

[o00scorpion00o]

That's a cool looking bag, Ive searched and can't find anything like it here as usual, I might look at U.K websites!

I was thinking of adding another 3-4S for 55-59 volts. I think it would fly @16S, probably do the 40 mph if yours does 38 on 15S?

The DD you got is as fast as my mac on 44 volts, that's a big difference and shows the efficiency advantages of geared motors.

The new Crystalyte DD motors seem to be good though, but I don't think I'd go back the DD route now!

Can I add a 20C brick to my 25C bricks if I want to go to 5 or 6S?