Crystalyte Motors,NEW APM's all in stock !

[wojtek]

agree!

but unfortunately crystalyte europe were probably not firm enough with Kenny and are only offering controllers with compatible with their own anayst...
That is really sad, from my perspective Kenny should use the same cable for his analyst as it is used for CA.

I understand wanting to earn extra $$$ but from business perspective it normally turns against the business if you don't treat your end-customers right.
Free market and choice is the way to go. Make an analyst that is better than CA, and people will start buying it!

I've read elsewhere that Crystalyte is abandoning CA compatibility in favor of their own similar device that is scheduled to come out in June. Are your controllers third party with CA connections?

Thanks.

Untrue
Kenny will wire controllers to be CA compatible. It is up to the retailer to insist that Kenny does this
If the retailer does not insist then it is probable that Kenny will not add the CA connector - which would be very lame.

-methods

[methods]

That is really sad, from my perspective Kenny should use the same cable for his analyst as it is used for CA.

Kenny's "analyst" is nothing like the CA and does very little "analyzing" - it is more like a collection of other basic (and a few cool) features in an fancy box. People will think it is cool (at first) but will quickly see that it is in no way a competitor to the CA as it is missing the most critical feature. You certainly would not want the same connector as the CA - first because the electrical connections are totally different and second because people will quickly find that they still need a CA.

When you start seeing these new boxes on the bars my guess is that it wont be long before they are sitting right next to a CA.
Really different creatures..... and controllers should have connectors for BOTH

-methods

[Stevil_Knevil]

.... and controllers should have connectors for BOTH

Oh, HellZ yes! Kenny, get with it

[Ryank]

Just ordered a full setup from Max Kogan. He was very helpful, and took quite a bit of time to discuss several aspects of his products-over the course of several phone calls. VERY NICE GENT!

.........Now it's just the waiting game......... (I think I'm gonna tackle the UPS dude)

[maxwell65]

That is really sad, from my perspective Kenny should use the same cable for his analyst as it is used for CA.

Kenny's "analyst" is nothing like the CA and does very little "analyzing" - it is more like a collection of other basic (and a few cool) features in an fancy box. People will think it is cool (at first) but will quickly see that it is in no way a competitor to the CA as it is missing the most critical feature. You certainly would not want the same connector as the CA - first because the electrical connections are totally different and second because people will quickly find that they still need a CA.

When you start seeing these new boxes on the bars my guess is that it wont be long before they are sitting right next to a CA.
Really different creatures..... and controllers should have connectors for BOTH

-methods

so whats the story,,,will the CA (original) work with the sensor-less controllers? or does a controller have to have the hall effects for the CA to work? cause right now it seems that people cannot use the CA with the sensor less controllers no matter what they do with it,,,BTW clyte says their second gen APM will be out in 25days,,,maybe that will have more features.we will see.

[slayer]

I just want to add that the cycle analyst direct plug in (CA-DP) will work except the speedometer not working everything else does and you could make mod inside the controller to make it fully fonctional


Also for those who know that now they can buy the cycle analyst with the speedometer sensor seperate (CA-DPS) and they will have every feature

[maxwell65]

I just want to add that the cycle analyst direct plug in (CA-DP) will work except the speedometer not working everything else does and you could make mod inside the controller to make it fully fonctional


Also for those who know that now they can buy the cycle analyst with the speedometer sensor seperate (CA-DPS) and they will have every feature

do you have pics and instructions to make the sensor less controller fully functional with the CA? we neeeeeed toooo knooowwww

[wojtek]

I think i saw somewhere the instructions from ebikes.ca on how to do it. It is just that I don't want to open up the controller and do it myself as it will probably void the warranty + i don't feel strong in the micro-soldering and electronics...

I just want to add that the cycle analyst direct plug in (CA-DP) will work except the speedometer not working everything else does and you could make mod inside the controller to make it fully fonctional


Also for those who know that now they can buy the cycle analyst with the speedometer sensor seperate (CA-DPS) and they will have every feature

do you have pics and instructions to make the sensor less controller fully functional with the CA? we neeeeeed toooo knooowwww

[whatever]

stainless steel spokes??? stainless = brittle over time = breakages
surprised crystalyte would even supply stainless with all their years of experience
stainless = bad idea

[slayer]

I just want to add that the cycle analyst direct plug in (CA-DP) will work except the speedometer not working everything else does and you could make mod inside the controller to make it fully fonctional


Also for those who know that now they can buy the cycle analyst with the speedometer sensor seperate (CA-DPS) and they will have every feature

do you have pics and instructions to make the sensor less controller fully functional with the CA? we neeeeeed toooo knooowwww

This is the part you need to change : the speed wire from the controller ...the wire speed is at the hall sensor you need to put it where he explains (Justin Lemore) he is showing all the other functions like throttle over ride and all but this is the only mod needed the speed wire...


Part of the appeal of the CA-DP installation is that it picks up the motor speed information from the motor hall signals rather than requiring an external spoke sensor and magnet. However, in a sensorless controller there aren't any hall signals as such. With the previous incarnation of the analog Crystalyte pedal first controllers, there was still a signal line that would toggle at each commutation and could serve as a speedo pulse, but it was prone to glitching at startup and causing false speed readings in the 100's of mph.

On these new boards, there is an LM339 comparator chip that compares the motor phase voltages to a synthesized neutral voltage and the three outputs are conveniently brought out as 3 test point pads on the ciruitboard, so you can trivially solder the yellow CA-DP wire into one of these to get the motor speed reading. From my testing the pulses are very stable even at low speeds (3-4 mph) and during startup:

Speedo%20Connection.jpg (69.95 KiB) Viewed 667 times

this is the thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26336

[maxwell65]

stainless steel spokes??? stainless = brittle over time = breakages
surprised crystalyte would even supply stainless with all their years of experience
stainless = bad idea

i thought that stainless steel spokes were of Superior quality,,,so what material do we look for in spokes? update,,,i spoke with my pro bike mechanic and he informed me that stainless steel spokes is the way to go,,,,all the best spokes are stainless steel,,,and if you look down at the next post by EMF,he really seems to know his stuff.

[EMF]

I think stainless spokes are the best material when compared to chrome or zinc plated ones - those spokes I consider inferior. The computer technology is there now to control the amount of nickle to a gnats ass and therefore ductility of stainless, to render the brittleness a moot point. Used to be when it was not so well controllable, I suppose one could get some bad stainless. Having said that, it is my understanding that too much nickle was thrown in to make sure the stainless met the spec. Now, they can control it and no longer guess and save a lot of money. ( I use a lot of stainless steel in my work )

Maybe there is something better now than stainless for spokes - I don't know- but I would not lose sleep over a wheel built out of stainless spokes.

[itselectric]

I just want to add that the cycle analyst direct plug in (CA-DP) will work except the speedometer not working everything else does and you could make mod inside the controller to make it fully fonctional


Also for those who know that now they can buy the cycle analyst with the speedometer sensor seperate (CA-DPS) and they will have every feature

do you have pics and instructions to make the sensor less controller fully functional with the CA? we neeeeeed toooo knooowwww

This is the part you need to change : the speed wire from the controller ...the wire speed is at the hall sensor you need to put it where he explains (Justin Lemore) he is showing all the other functions like throttle over ride and all but this is the only mod needed the speed wire...


Part of the appeal of the CA-DP installation is that it picks up the motor speed information from the motor hall signals rather than requiring an external spoke sensor and magnet. However, in a sensorless controller there aren't any hall signals as such. With the previous incarnation of the analog Crystalyte pedal first controllers, there was still a signal line that would toggle at each commutation and could serve as a speedo pulse, but it was prone to glitching at startup and causing false speed readings in the 100's of mph.

On these new boards, there is an LM339 comparator chip that compares the motor phase voltages to a synthesized neutral voltage and the three outputs are conveniently brought out as 3 test point pads on the ciruitboard, so you can trivially solder the yellow CA-DP wire into one of these to get the motor speed reading. From my testing the pulses are very stable even at low speeds (3-4 mph) and during startup:

Speedo%20Connection.jpg

this is the thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26336

slayer:
you need read further on the post. There are NO solution for this. There are NO LM339 chip in the new sensoreless controller. You simple CANNOT hook up a CycleAnlayst onto the new sensorless controller.
Ken

[slayer]

oups Silly me loll
So sorry for Justin but that new apm looks interesting
sorry for me too cause i tired of spending ... loll

well for now i have most of the features with a seperate speedometer ...i will wait for next year maybe

[kriskros]

i have thge hs3540 sensorless...also have Lyens sensorless controller...also have the CA direct plug in.... iuse the separate speed cable and EVERYTHING works perfectly

[Ryank]

Just received the shipment Y/D (6-2-11)!!
Everything was in the package and looks good....
Now I'm gonna put it on my GT Zaskar/Xtracycle free radical monster and see how it runs.....

Just waiting on the battery kits from Headway Headquarters (two 36V 40160 kits).......Oh, and some clear weather!!

[gerrydesign]

Email sent.

[nicobie]

pm sent...

[jimw1960]

Does anyone know if there are any issues with dropout spacing when using an 8-speed freewheel with these new HS motors? I am about to order a freewheel for my motor and want to know before I spend the money.

[maxwell65]

hi all,,,

ok here it is from the horses mouth,,,i finally mounted a HS sensor-less motor and a clyte 48v45amp controller,,,and it runs smooth as silk and is fast as well and to top it all off, good torque,,,, as far as im concerned there is no reason whatsoever to go with sensored unless of course you don't want to change controllers and use a regular sensored controller with the 5 hall effects wires,,,,but for those on the fence you will not be sorry with the sensor-less set-up,,,im really impressed with how smooth the starts are,,,,unable to tell a difference between sensored and sensorless,,,any one care to comment?

[methods]

there is no reason whatsoever to go with sensored unless of course you don't want to change controllers and use a regular sensored controller with the 5 hall effects wires,,,

The benefit of buying a sensored motor is that it is compatible with any sensored/sensorless BLDC controller on the market - new or used. I think that you will also find that as power goes up (think 100V 100A) the somewhat small jerks and shakes you feel now sensorless will be greatly amplified. That said - if someone is in the market now looking for a great price for a simple and reliable setup there is something to say about going sensorless.... less wires, no chance of halls blowing, easy to configure and change motor direction.... All good things for someone new to ebikes

I still think that if given the option to manufacture the motors with sensors you should ALWAYS do it - BUT... that does not mean that motors without sensors are not a good buy for the right application. Of course - one could always install sensors down the road if one wanted to.

(disclaimer - I sell and promote sensored motors so I am biased..... and we are in Maxes sales thread so I am playing nice.... )

-methods

[liveforphysics]

Sensorless = worthless IMHO.


It can only guess rotor position by sniffing the BEMF with the comparator board. No wheel motion, no BEMF, and only guessing at rotor position and hoping it gets motion.

For a high power setup, this just fails all over the place.

If you get a flux vectoring controller, THEN and only then does it make any sense to be sensorless.

[oatnet]

hi all,,,

ok here it is from the horses mouth,,,i finally mounted a HS sensor-less motor and a clyte 48v45amp controller,,,and it runs smooth as silk and is fast as well and to top it all off, good torque,,,, as far as im concerned there is no reason whatsoever to go with sensored unless of course you don't want to change controllers and use a regular sensored controller with the 5 hall effects wires,,,,but for those on the fence you will not be sorry with the sensor-less set-up,,,im really impressed with how smooth the starts are,,,,unable to tell a difference between sensored and sensorless,,,any one care to comment?

Since you ask, Yes.

On an HS/HT motor WITH the hall sensors installed, you can use ANY sensored controller. OR you can use the xlyte sensorless controller you just tested (simply leave the halls disconnected) and it will behave EXACTLY like the sensorless motor you just tested.

On a motor WITHOUT hall sensors, you can ONLY use xlyte's sensorless controller, or Lyen's. Therefor, the sensorless motor has less functionality because you can't use 99% of the controllers out there, and sensorless provides less performance/efficiency. The only upgrade path is to fix the motor by installing the sensors the factory left off. If you don't want to upgrade to get more performance later, and you just want a 72v40a commuter (as I like to build) it makes more sense to buy a lighter, cheaper 9c that will give you pretty much the same speed and torque. The whole point of going with the heavier xlyte is because it can stand up to more abuse - that only a non-xlyte SENSORED controller can supply.

It sucks that Kenny of xlyte resorted to this trick, in order to recapture the overpriced market share he lost when significantly cheaper competitors showed up. That is why I am BOYCOTTING xlyte these days - I bought (3) 8x8 9c from methods, but didn't buy in on methods' ultra-cheap sale for the new xlyte's even though they were sensored. It is worse that xlyte stuck folks like you, who brought cheap xlyte to E:S in the past but didn't understand the implications of sensorless, with reduced-functionality motors. However, I also hate for newbies who don't know any better to get stuck with them too, and maybe get turned off to the hobby.

-JD

[slayer]

Me i don t buy that you are limited because you have a sensorless and you know less because you want one ...i have one sensorless hs3540 with Lyen controller (kellycontroller have some too http://kellycontroller.com/72v-sensorle ... 64_67.html)

before that i had a 5304 (still have it ) and that was 6 years ago i did not use the option of buying all the controllers that exists ...my original crystalyte controller still works so if i change my new sensorless in 6 years i will be happy with my choice even if sensorless are off the map because you guys want to boycott. (i don t beleive it for a minute but just for saying)

[deVries]

If you get a flux vectoring controller, THEN and only then does it make any sense to be sensorless.

Are these available now (or soon will be) for most ebike level applications? Motor limitations? Cost? Sourcing?

I think Maxwell could probably offer some motors with halls too? Of course, not everyone will demand the higher performance of a sensored motor if the sensorless has some simplicity enhancements such as lower failure rates vs sensored & less repair issues. In other words "failure prevention" by not having halls & wiring to fail in the first place.

Perhaps sensorless has a lot of room for future improvements too to somehow smooth out the jerky & start-up issues in future upgrades too? Are these sensorless controllers upgradeable?

But! Maxwell says this already about this sensorless controller: i finally mounted a HS sensor-less motor and a clyte 48v45amp controller,,,and it runs smooth as silk and is fast as well (its raining today so in a few days i will post my top speed,,,,but it seems to be faster than my 5303 and this controller is 45amps where as my other controller was 35amps,,,so I'm sure the 10 amps is giving me the extra speed im sensing... i have heard reports that even at the same amps the new HS is faster) and to top it all off, good torque,,,, as far as I'm concerned there is no reason whatsoever to go with sensored unless of course you don't want to change controllers and use a regular sensored controller with the 5 hall effects wires,,,,but for those on the fence you will not be sorry with the sensor-less set-up,,,im really impressed with how smooth the starts are,,,,unable to tell a difference between sensored and sensorless

Here are some valid or "funny" reasons to go sensorless that Lyen uses to promote his controller:

(I realize 3 & 7 don't apply to xlyte.)

1. You want to make more space in the motor axle for for thicker phase wires
2. You hate hall wires
3. You have a RC motor (Turnigy & Astro in this case)
4. You want to try something different
5. You think sensorless is cool
6. You are unable to figure out how to wire the sensor wires to the controller with the correct sequence
7. You want to have a backup controller just in case
8. You think sensorless is more reliable since no hall sensors and/or wires can get damaged easily by heat & water