Crystalyte Motors,NEW APM's all in stock !

[methods]

This is the meat and potatoes of it.... (see quote below) though I am continuing to do business with xlyte myself since Kenny tends to be more reliable than all of the other guys I have dealt with. He can be tricky... but he wont down right screw you. If I were a consumer it might be different - but as a small time re-seller I could tell you true horror stories of dealing with 9C and others.... who will hang you out to dry.

Sorry for discussion in your sales thread Max but you did clearly ask for comment and open the debate.

-methods

It sucks that Kenny of xlyte resorted to this trick, in order to recapture the overpriced market share he lost when significantly cheaper competitors showed up. That is why I am BOYCOTTING xlyte these days - I bought (3) 8x8 9c from methods, but didn't buy in on methods' ultra-cheap sale for the new xlyte's even though they were sensored. It is worse that xlyte stuck folks like you, who brought cheap xlyte to E:S in the past but didn't understand the implications of sensorless, with reduced-functionality motors. However, I also hate for newbies who don't know any better to get stuck with them too, and maybe get turned off to the hobby.

-JD

[slayer]

If you get a flux vectoring controller, THEN and only then does it make any sense to be sensorless.

Luke you never worked for public ...you would be surprised how they choose sometimes ...only to not have the little occasional jerk sometimes on a slight uphill ...well gess what we are not all talking about a drag racing ...we have legs to give a little push when needed. And with the power it provides you don t need it for long ...mine delivers 2500 watts at 48 volts with lyen unmodified that is more than enough for the rest of us .. no offence but we let you be ...let us be too

[wojtek]

On a motor WITHOUT hall sensors, you can ONLY use xlyte's sensorless controller, or Lyen's. Therefor, the sensorless motor has less functionality because you can't use 99% of the controllers out there
-JD

hmm.. i guess it might just be wording. What you mean is compatibility not functionality - two different things. When you say functionality, it makes no sense.

I have not tested the sensorless yet [waiting for ages to get them from Crystalyte Europe] but i ordered one crystalyte and one Lyen for my projects [to compare]

[Spacey]

Are you STILL waiting for xlyte europe to get their crap together and send you your motor...surely not?

I would be interested in the difference between Lyens Sensorless and Xlyte Sensorless.

I for one like sensorless as I have had a few problems in rainy UK with my 9C's messing up with Halls.

[wojtek]

LOL
i am !
and the lyen extra controller i ordered with all extras, probably got lost on the way. It was shipped a month ago and there is no trace of it in luxembourg.

So f***** annoying! i started my projects way before Doc discovered KMX trikes, he is now breaking speed records and i am f***** waiting.

if there was an icon with (frock all) , i would use it now.

Are you STILL waiting for xlyte europe to get their crap together and send you your motor...surely not?

I would be interested in the difference between Lyens Sensorless and Xlyte Sensorless.

I for one like sensorless as I have had a few problems in rainy UK with my 9C's messing up with Halls.

[neptronix]

The way i see it is:

sensored motor has less magnet, so that sucks. It's also hard to come by it seems. Both of these factors make it less appealing.

sensorless motor works with the lyen controllers but has issues like jerkiness at certain speeds. Your other option is the mystery brick crystalyte controller with no programming options and diddly squat for mods/documentation. Not appealing to me.

I'm gonna wait it out with this motor after an entire month of deliberating whether or not to pull the trigger on a buy. Maybe Lyen will come up with a better sensor-substitute circuit that works well for these.

[Arlo1]

The way i see it is:

sensored motor has less magnet, so that sucks. It's also hard to come by it seems. Both of these factors make it less appealing.

sensorless motor works with the lyen controllers but has issues like jerkiness at certain speeds. Your other option is the mystery brick crystalyte controller with no programming options and diddly squat for mods/documentation. Not appealing to me.

I'm gonna wait it out with this motor after an entire month of deliberating whether or not to pull the trigger on a buy. Maybe Lyen will come up with a better sensor-substitute circuit that works well for these.

The sensors dont take away from the magnet, They are mounted in the stator and it has no mesureable effect on how hard the flux pulls/pushes the magnets. But the gains you get by knowing where the magnets are far exceed any losses you rthink you might have. The biggest thing for me is sensor controlers have the great starting torque and less likely to pop when stressed!

[slayer]

The way i see it is:

sensored motor has less magnet, so that sucks. It's also hard to come by it seems. Both of these factors make it less appealing.

sensorless motor works with the lyen controllers but has issues like jerkiness at certain speeds. Your other option is the mystery brick crystalyte controller with no programming options and diddly squat for mods/documentation. Not appealing to me.

I'm gonna wait it out with this motor after an entire month of deliberating whether or not to pull the trigger on a buy. Maybe Lyen will come up with a better sensor-substitute circuit that works well for these.

No Lyen controllers dont have issues at all at any speeds ...

it is only from dead start if you are uphill ...and that is only needed a one eight (1\8 or a little push upwards) of a wheel turn to make it start after that you are fine all the time and that is not always happening

[neptronix]

I thought the stator on the sensored motor was 30 or 32mm and the sensorless one was 35mm?

That would be a decent stator size difference, 10% or more.

[Spacey]

The way i see it is:

sensored motor has less magnet, so that sucks. It's also hard to come by it seems. Both of these factors make it less appealing.

sensorless motor works with the lyen controllers but has issues like jerkiness at certain speeds. Your other option is the mystery brick crystalyte controller with no programming options and diddly squat for mods/documentation. Not appealing to me.

I'm gonna wait it out with this motor after an entire month of deliberating whether or not to pull the trigger on a buy. Maybe Lyen will come up with a better sensor-substitute circuit that works well for these.

No Lyen controllers dont have issues at all at any speeds ...

it is only from dead start if you are uphill ...and that is only needed a one eight (1\8 or a little push upwards) of a wheel turn to make it start after that you are fine all the time and that is not always happening

Actually mine does shudder a little bit when I hit the power hard and usually at 80% of the top speed. I have to ease off the throttle and then re apply it so it synch's back up. Totally useable though.

[neptronix]

^-- there are more than a few people who have mentioned this on the other big crystalyte HS thread if you have been watching it.

[steveo]

good work max, your still here selling the new stuff, your awsome!!!

[slayer]

if you would answer by who and what as been said i would continue ...but sorry i wont read all and i don t post everyday

[nicobie]

Max is tops. I had a problem with Clyte and he helped me out big time.

Thanks Max!

[oatnet]

On a motor WITHOUT hall sensors, you can ONLY use xlyte's sensorless controller, or Lyen's. Therefor, the sensorless motor has less functionality because you can't use 99% of the controllers out there
-JD

hmm.. i guess it might just be wording. What you mean is compatibility not functionality - two different things. When you say functionality, it makes no sense.

I see your point, but i think both words apply.

I can run a sensored HS/HT at 10kw, because I could slap my methods 100v100a controller on it.
The sensorless version would be restricted to xlyte controllers that can "only" do 72v45a. So both could function as a high-speed commuter, but only sensored could also function as a hotrod.

And if I wasn't gonna go beyond 72v45a, I would use a lighter, cheaper 9c anyhow.

I feel bad here - over the years I've seen Max sell xlyte here at an eye-popping discount over other vendors, sacrificing profit to bring equipment to E:S members and promote our Hobby. I have seen a series of satisfied customers post their thanks, and no complaints. I've seen him keep an even keel in the face of challenging posters. He is an asset to the site and the hobby and I am frustrated he got caught up in the sensorless debacle xlyte created.



-JD

[liveforphysics]

The way i see it is:

sensored motor has less magnet, so that sucks. It's also hard to come by it seems. Both of these factors make it less appealing.

sensorless motor works with the lyen controllers but has issues like jerkiness at certain speeds. Your other option is the mystery brick crystalyte controller with no programming options and diddly squat for mods/documentation. Not appealing to me.

I'm gonna wait it out with this motor after an entire month of deliberating whether or not to pull the trigger on a buy. Maybe Lyen will come up with a better sensor-substitute circuit that works well for these.

No Lyen controllers dont have issues at all at any speeds ...

it is only from dead start if you are uphill ...and that is only needed a one eight (1\8 or a little push upwards) of a wheel turn to make it start after that you are fine all the time and that is not always happening

Actually mine does shudder a little bit when I hit the power hard and usually at 80% of the top speed. I have to ease off the throttle and then re apply it so it synch's back up. Totally useable though.

It's not just that the sensorless controller can't be programmed and setup the way you want it, we CAN make it powerful by soldering the shunts and swapping FETs and beefing up traces etc, just like we did before the luxury of programmable controllers.

The problem is that it's impossible for the controller to reliably maintain rotor position to know how to sequence, and at higher power levels, a single poorly timed sequence error means failure.

That little shudder when you lose sync = exploded ball of plasma controller if you're running power levels that this motor begs to feel.

If you're not running those higher power levels, lighter cheaper motors make more sense.

Sensorless = Senseless You take a high power motor and give it low power (why get a high power motor?), or you tweak the controller to make best use of the motors capabilities, and then it explodes the instant it glitches (and sensorless glitches will always be an inevitable reality).


BTW- I also like what Maxwell does, and I applaud his super-low-margins and getting product in the hands of ES'ers for cheap. I love that. The sad part of it is just the sensorless aspect that kinda spoils the motors from ever realizing their potential, everything else rocks.

[deVries]

It's not just that the sensorless controller can't be programmed and setup the way you want it, we CAN make it powerful by soldering the shunts and swapping FETs and beefing up traces etc, just like we did before the luxury of programmable controllers.

The problem is that it's impossible for the controller to reliably maintain rotor position to know how to sequence, and at higher power levels, a single poorly timed sequence error means failure.

That little shudder when you lose sync = exploded ball of plasma controller if you're running power levels that this motor begs to feel.

If you're not running those higher power levels, lighter cheaper motors make more sense.

Would the stock sensorless controllers be reliable or not? ...bypassing the pros/cons of modding to higher power.

Sensorless = Senseless You take a high power motor and give it low power (why get a high power motor?), or you tweak the controller to make best use of the motors capabilities, and then it explodes the instant it glitches (and sensorless glitches will always be an inevitable reality).

Isn't it true that to do all these high power setups everyone had to upgrade the wiring into the motors anyway, SO the only additional modding will be adding the Hall Sensors. At that point, it looks to be another 2.5hrs of work for the experienced & maybe a day or less for a 1st timer.

Btw, Luke, can you tell us more about "flux vectoring" sensorless controllers. This does not seem to be a product purchase option right now. I think Ricky in NZ is going to use this flux vectoring technique?

Anyway to go optical like Burtie is attempting to do? Stick the optic-reader on some shaft attachment on the outside or do it inside elsewhere?

[RVD]

Ok I'm game. In the pursuit of knowledge, there are winners, losers, and those who don't try. I'll try and see where it leads me.

Ordered HS3540 + lyen sensorless. We'll see where this takes me.

[methods]

I thought the stator on the sensored motor was 30 or 32mm and the sensorless one was 35mm?

That would be a decent stator size difference, 10% or more.

That is incorrect.
The original batch of sensored motors were on a 30mm Stator (for clearance) but we worked with Kenny and now the new batches of Sensored motors are 35mm. They are identical to the sensorless motors in every way - both the magnets and the stator.

-methods

[methods]

I feel bad here - over the years I've seen Max sell xlyte here at an eye-popping discount over other vendors, sacrificing profit to bring equipment to E:S members and promote our Hobby. I have seen a series of satisfied customers post their thanks, and no complaints. I've seen him keep an even keel in the face of challenging posters. He is an asset to the site and the hobby and I am frustrated he got caught up in the sensorless debacle xlyte created.

-JD

Agreed. I hate seeing a vendor bashed in a thread. Max has gotten a lot of people into the game with low pricing. That said:

hi all,,,

..... as far as im concerned there is no reason whatsoever to go with sensored
........unable to tell a difference between sensored and sensorless......
.......any one care to comment?

First and foremost this is a technical forum where truth reins. The debate is over the statements above which were very strong - and in my opinion false. He opened it up for comment and the comments have poured in. I have no doubt that Max will be able to continue his very successful business. I feel for him - but I know exactly what it feels like to be sitting on 100 motors that might not be a lot of peoples first choice.

Kudos to Max for sitting back and letting us hash this out without getting defensive. A patient man he is.

-methods

[liveforphysics]

Btw, Luke, can you tell us more about "flux vectoring" sensorless controllers. This does not seem to be a product purchase option right now. I think Ricky in NZ is going to use this flux vectoring technique?

Flux-Vector has become the dominate control for very large industrial induction motor VFD's. (VFD's that cost $10,000-50,000usd, so the $500 cost of the processors and A2D's to make it work are a very small portion of the drive cost).

Ricky is/has built one, and I'm frothing at the mouth to get my hands on one when they release!

There is no such thing as an ebike flux-vector control yet. Ricky's will likely be the first. Then these sensorless motors will totally make sense, and have full torque at zero rpm. But I think Ricky's board has a few hundred dollars of bare component cost alone... so don't expect them to cost under $500 assembled.

[slayer]

Yes if i take wath you say lighter cheaper models makes sense...

well i ll be 49 at the end of this summer and i realised that a 5304 is way too heaavy for my taste and even today i rode with cycle analyst and put current limit to 10 amps and it was fun ... well ok a little hard on the legs but i see i am getting older and feel less hungry for powerfull ride. don t forget this was meant to be a power assist in the eyes of the laws anyway... not a motorcycle ...10kw is not for a bicycle

but i still like it so don t telll me to buy a cute motor lolll
and i like the quietness of a crystalyte

[oatnet]

There is no such thing as an ebike flux-vector control yet. Ricky's will likely be the first.

Is it true that it will require 1.21gw to reach peak efficiency? And that if you exceed 141kmh (88mph) that it will slap you back to the 50's?

[certain-newbie-channeling-mode] Luke I've been on this site for two whole weeks, and I've never actually built, ridden, or seen flux-vector control, but I heard it sucks from a some guys who were sitting on a flux-vector eBike at the time, so you better watch out cause it'll be sad and you might even implode, so don't even try it. Sucks [/CNCM]

-JD

[thewmatusmoloki]

Thanks Max, I have taken delivery of the new HS35 and all seems to be in great order.

about 10 days to australia, pretty happy with that.

UDM.

Thanks again
Matt.

[maxwell65]

This is the meat and potatoes of it.... (see quote below) though I am continuing to do business with xlyte myself since Kenny tends to be more reliable than all of the other guys I have dealt with. He can be tricky... but he wont down right screw you. If I were a consumer it might be different - but as a small time re-seller I could tell you true horror stories of dealing with 9C and others.... who will hang you out to dry.

Sorry for discussion in your sales thread Max but you did clearly ask for comment and open the debate.

-methods

It sucks that Kenny of xlyte resorted to this trick, in order to recapture the overpriced market share he lost when significantly cheaper competitors showed up. That is why I am BOYCOTTING xlyte these days - I bought (3) 8x8 9c from methods, but didn't buy in on methods' ultra-cheap sale for the new xlyte's even though they were sensored. It is worse that xlyte stuck folks like you, who brought cheap xlyte to E:S in the past but didn't understand the implications of sensorless, with reduced-functionality motors. However, I also hate for newbies who don't know any better to get stuck with them too, and maybe get turned off to the hobby.
-JD

hi all,

no need to be sorry Methods,,,your welcome to leave comments anytime,,,ive read all the posts about sensored and sensorless,,,on my crystalyte 48v45amp sensorless controller and my HS motor all i can offer here is my own experience,from a dead stop i experience no jerking what-so-ever,,,i went on a 15km trip the other day and went up a highway over pass (steep hill) and was doing 40km top speed all the way up the hill,,,on the straights my top was 49kmph with still room to go but i simply did not have enough straight aways to get to top speed so i will not know till i go to an area that will allow me to experiment with the top speed,,,im 165 Lbs,,,and there was plenty of torque for an HS.,,,,now ,,,for those that want "custom performance" in other words,crazy high amps 60amps to 100+ and volts exceeding 80+ then perhaps sensorless is not the way to go,,,but for those that want to keep to more down to earth and safer speeds,,,and believe me once you hit 50kmph on a regular bike converted to electric its scary fast, im real comfortable at between 35 and 45 kmph.put me on a motorcycle and i have no problems going 100kmph +++,,,but thats a motorcycle with big wheels and suspension designed to go fast.for me the bottom line is this,,,,for "off the shelf performance", a clyte sensorless motor coupled with the clyte controller without any modifications,to me is simply pure enjoyment quality ride,period.for those wanting performance enhancements then from what ive read u need to go sensored.

max