LiMnNi at BatterySpace

[veloman]

http://www.batteryspace.com/limnni26650 ... -bike.aspx


Is there any record of use regarding these batteries here? Is it lithium with manganese and nickel? Seems odd. But it's really lightweight and can supposedly tolerate high peak current draws.


They will also sell the cells individually with nice tabs for easy connecting:
http://www.batteryspace.com/limnnirecha ... 148wh.aspx

[neptronix]

Veloman, nice find! these are interesting cells!

4AH in a 26650 cell.
Safe chemistry.
3.7v nominal, 4.2v max.
RC lipo like density.
2.5C operation gives full mAH and then some.
Looks like they can burst to 5C too.
1C charge rate, can handle ~1.5C.
1000 Cycles to 80% life

WOW.

Now here's the kicker:

Shelf life: 6 months

Anddd..... there goes my battery boner.

[neptronix]

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?234724-BatterySpaces-4000mah-26650-cells-Graph/page2

After some research, the battery boner is back in action.

Hi,

The Shelf life in the spec. sheet means that the charge of the battery (usually 40% of the battery capacity) from the manufacturer will self discharge after 6 months.

Thanks

Raymond
Customer service/Sales

OK, so thus far these seem like a total dream. No, they're not 20-90C lipo, that's for sure, but it sounds like you don't have to worry about them burning your house down, and are rated at many many more cycles.

Is this what LiveForPhysics has been raving about? i think i understand now.

So who's gonna make a pack first? i am all tapped out on $ right now, damnit.

[dnmun]

dr bass sells the konions cheap too. same chemistry, Sony manufactured.

[neptronix]

I though Konions were LiMn, not LiMnNi ?

The googler is saying that Konions are LiMn, and these cells are a bit different.

http://www.batteryspace.com/prod-specs/5161_1.pdf

Battery discharge curve looks similar to hobbyking lipo, but the 'cliff' is at more like 3.4v.

Edit: now that i look at the discharge curve, these puppies seem to sag a lot at 1C.
So OK, maybe they are more like pings in terms of discharge. But their energy density is so much greater, and the lower cell count means that you can charge 'em with lipo chargers easily.. that's cool

I think these are an interesting middle ground between ping packs and lipo.

[spinningmagnets]

In view of how a few months ago, a server update accidentally corrupted many of the pics in the older threads, I have a recommendation for anyone wanting to solder together a pack from loose cells like these.

Create a new blank document document and copy/paste DoctorBass's thread on building a Makita-cell pack. I have done this and the process also captures the pics, which are quite useful and self-explanitory.

If you are willing to buy lightly used LiMn cells, Docs prices can't be beat, and I have bought two shipments from him. Both times he provided exactly what he said, and I recieved my box from Canada to Kansas in about a week after paypalling him. Doc was out of the highly regarded Makita cells at the time, and I bought similar LiMn cells from the orange Ridgid cordless drill packs.

These cells appear to be new, and if they can keep up with the demand, they may become a top-choice for those willing to go through the hassle of building their own pack. I am comfortable using LiPo, but...every non-technical non-enthusiast to whom I describe the benefits and drawbacks of the various choices to, do not want LiPo. LiMn and its variants seem to perform well without a BMS, so they have become my recommendation of choice when someones budget allows them.

Nothing wrong with Ping or other brands of LiFePO4s, just my preference. To further clarify my position, my interests are in mid-power/low-amp-draw systems. For high performance applications, these cells may not have an acceptable C-rate.

[NeilP]

Looking on the same site to their ready built packs

http://www.batteryspace.com/High-Power- ... h-PCM.aspx
http://www.batteryspace.com/High-Power- ... -rate.aspx
the spec sheet at the bottom states
Not Suitable for Scooter e-bike Skateboard etc....why would that be or do you reckon they are just covering themselves

Did notice a fairly low No. of cycles though..all they claim is Greater than 300....well i should bloody hope so

[Spacey]

These do not look bad at all, wh/kg is awesome! Just a little worried about the 80% after 1,000 cycles?

[neptronix]

^-- +1 to all of the above. That's exactly what i'm thinkin' too, dude. Would i use em? hell naw. But they are a great alternative to a ping. 6.6 pounds for 12AH is excellent. Big weight savings over a ping.

I think if i was referring a total noob, relative, or customers etc if i were running an eBike shop for a battery pack, i would point them in this direction ( if the pack lives up to it's specs )

[NeilP]

Yes, that it what I am thinking...for a mate who does not want the hassle of LiPO...but I can't let him build a bike with 6 * 15 Ah SLA's either

[neptronix]

Neil, those lipo packs are a ripoff !

http://www.batteryspace.com/limnni26650battery37v12ah444wh40aratewithpcmfore-bike.aspx

This is what we're talking about here.

Also, check these out, guys.

http://www.batteryspace.com/High-Power-LiNiCoMn-Polymer-Cell-3.65V-20Ah-73Wh-100A-rate.aspx

High quantity only unfortunately, but they have amazing density!! 171.76Wh/Kg I wonder about the price. These could be a fantastic alternative to the hard-to-get A123s, albiet not as high performance. Cycle life in the multi thousands.

[NeilP]

Yes, whe you compare to the ones you link to, yes,,,4 of those would do it

[neptronix]

http://www.ampedbikes.com/tubebattery.html

OK, compared to the ampedbikes pack, this little sucker looks damn good at $400, even after ~$50 for a charger. ( 150w meanwell? )

[Spacey]

Hoping the price will come down a bit from the usual sellers, but then batterspace are always a bit on the high side with prices.

So who else will start stocking these I wonder?

[auraslip]

Ebikes.ca says their limn packs from ezee are their best sellers and have the least returns and warranty issues.

Lots of places cell limn.... Check on aliababa.... for right now I'd say DOC will have the best deal since he uses quality cells to start with and does his own QC.

[liveforphysics]

Ebikes.ca says their limn packs from ezee are their best sellers and have the least returns and warranty issues.

Lots of places cell limn.... Check on aliababa.... for right now I'd say DOC will have the best deal since he uses quality cells to start with and does his own QC.

Ebikes.ca has never sold a LiNiMnOx pack AFAIK.

The chemistry I'm in love with right now is LiNiMnCoO2, or NMC (nickel, manganese, cobalt)

[neptronix]

LFP, where can i find more info / purchase links to these batteries?
Have hit up the googler with limited success. Wikipedia says that NMC batteries are the most energy dense. BUT.... what downfalls, if any, come with that density..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Positive_electrodes

Apparently the Nissan Leaf is using these according to wikipedia... but who else?

[liveforphysics]

LFP, where can i find more info / purchase links to these batteries?
Have hit up the googler with limited success. Wikipedia says that NMC batteries are the most energy dense. BUT.... what downfalls, if any, come with that density..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery#Positive_electrodes

Apparently the Nissan Leaf is using these according to wikipedia... but who else?

Every EV mfg who doesn't have their head buried in their ass or isn't trapped in a contract with an outdated format (*cough* Tesla *cough*).

Volt
Leaf
Hyundai
Volvo
etc.

[neptronix]

I see. They don't exist on the hobby market yet do they.. patent encumbrance, right?

I know you are probably under some NDAs because of your job, but can you tell me this; are those cells the best of all worlds, IE 3-5C+ nominal rate, good cycle life, good safety, *and* improved density over these LiMnNi ?

IE much like these cells we're talking about, but better whr/kg & output?

[liveforphysics]

I see. They don't exist on the hobby market yet do they.. patent encumbrance, right?

I know you are probably under some NDAs because of your job, but can you tell me this; are those cells the best of all worlds, IE 3-5C+ nominal rate, good cycle life, good safety, *and* improved density over these LiMnNi ?

IE much like these cells we're talking about, but better whr/kg & output?

Yes. Better safety and cycle life than A123's LiFePO4. Better energy density. Cheaper. Not much not to like, except difficult to acquire if you're not an OEM (remember the days when the only A123's we ever could get were from buying dewalt packs? Now we would have to buy Nissan Leafs or Chev volts.)

[auraslip]

For those who require greater range, there is an upgrade to a 37V 14Ah option made from Samsung LiMn cells, with the same dimensions and weight but 50% more capacity.

http://ebike.ca/store/store_ezee.php

Well some places already have some of the mixed metal oxide batteries. http://www.lighthound.com/Lighthound-Li ... _3478.html

Probably not the real thing though huh. 4ah in a 26650 cell?

[neptronix]

Hm, i would think that those batteries in 26650 form would have more AH, like 4.2-4.5AH + have higher power output.
They seem no better than the LiMnNi.

http://www.avidvaper.com/products/IMR26650--3.7v-High-Drain-Li%252dMN-Batteries.html

Here is an interesting alternative to the 18650 Li-MN konions.
10C discharge rate, 15C max, same 4AH in a compact space.

Pricey though. Wonder what the China price is....

[neptronix]

I gave batteryspace / powerizer a call about the LiNiCoMn cell pricing. They say they will email me back about the prices.

I wonder if these are competitively priced. Will report back later.

[liveforphysics]

You know Methy and I both happen to have a few thousand 26700 size LiMn 10C capable cells. He is selling his, and has a few thousand that are brand new in the mfg's shipping box. They are "2.7ah/cell" which means more like a useable 2.3Ah.

They work, they are fairly rugged, tend to self-balance if things are setup in reasonable balance to begin with, and are a safety chemistry.

The downside is, they are round cells, which always suck to make packs with.

[neptronix]

Cool, but kind of low mAH density for 26650 type cells. Do either of you have a for sale thread?

Well i worked some numbers for the limnni & lincomn stuff on batteryspace.

20ah 10S turnigy lipo ( 8 x 660g ) = 5328g 11.75lb
$334 shipped with 1 cent shipping via US warehouse. Other locales may cost $400 shipped.

20ah 10S lincomn pouch ( 10 x 4250g ) = 4250g 9.7lb
$ ?

20ah 10S limnni cylindrical ( 51 x 9.7 ) = 4535g 10lb
$519.18 + shipping ( $12.39 ) = $531.75

20ah 36v pingbattery = 7500g 16.5 lb
$470 + shipping ( $109 ) = $579.0

If you are going for a long range build, with low/mid power, and are willing to build your own pack, these cells would kick ass if they live up to their specs.

Advantages over a ping: WAY lighter, slightly higher discharge rate, higher charge rate. Can run with 10S lipo chargers instead of a BMS.
Advantages lipo: More than triple the cycle life. UL certified and not a flame thrower chemistry ( needs testing )

Disadvantages: 2.5C rate is stressing them out, so they must be considered 1C-2C cells in reality. A little more expensive than ping when you consider that ping is pre-wired, with a BMS, and charger.

I dunno, guys.. for some builds, i think these would be really ideal. If i didn't have spare lipo for my girlfriend's bike, i would be buying these and assembling her a 16ah pack that could be charged on all my 36v lipo gear.. bitchin.